Work supervisor issue

[elefun]

I think I'm just looking to talk this out and garner some ideas but I have a situation brewing with a supervisor at work.

For clarity, she is right below my direct reporting supervisor but she is still someone who can approve my PTO, give me directives, etc. Her title is assistant director. I report to director of my program. Both of them report to the executive director of the entire agency.

She is a bitch for lack of better explanation. She moved into her position a couple years ago from a quality assurance position and my interactions with her quickly did a 180 and she became awful to me. I was under the assumption she was treating everyone that way.

For the past 9 months or so it has been what has felt more targeted. She seems to enjoy making me look stupid or wrong in front of others and every interaction I have with her she is nasty and rude. Asserting her dominance maybe. In November she told the ED a lie about me that resulted in a verbal reprimand (but not a formal reprimand). I asserted it was false, and it went away with nothing more said. Since then it has been increasing to the point other coworkers are noticing and commenting on it. She has made it to where I dread our monthly team meetings because I know I'm going to be humiliated, and I will be skipping our annual conference in the fall to actively avoid her.

I had a coworker tell me last month in April she was going to report the behavior to our ED. I thanked her. I then heard nothing from ED or HR. The behavior coworker reported was increasing tone (yelling) when responding to my questions and rolling her eyes at me.

This month of May at our team meeting supervisor cut me off, clapped her hands at me while I was talking like a school teacher, and told me we needed to move on. I forwarded this to HR this time because I thought it would be additional supporting evidence from what my coworker reported.

My ED responded to the report via email and admitted to other coworkers reporting "on a few occasions overt frustration and sharp redirection" from the supervisor (this is verbatim) and then went on to victim blame and say I had it coming because I ask too many "challenging" questions about processes (not verbatim). I have this email saved now.

She asked for a meeting Monday. I've been mulling over what I will say. Would you call this behavior bullying? I am autistic and my "challenging" questions are typically blunt and direct, so I can understand the who, what, and why of processes so I can implement them to the best of my ability. Such as, "could you please explain why this process is changing, since it worked so well previously?" Or "These are the two things we're being asked to do but I'm not sure how to satisfy both of them simultaneously, could you help me understand how to do that?"

I have never shared I'm autistic with my employer because I don't need accommodations. I don't think someone needs to know my diagnosis to treat me with respect, either. Another comical kicker? We do social work for people with developmental disabilities! You'd think someone in that field would be able to respond to different personalities and communication styles more appropriately, right?

[wise_rita]

Oh man, what a bitch. I'm sorry she's making your life difficult.

It would be helpful to know if you just want to get her off your back or of you're looking to burn this bitch to the ground. Is it in any way possible she could be fired if she was found to be harassing you, or is she, say, besties with the director?

Regardless of which outcome you seek, I think the most important step is to document everything (dates/times/explanations) so you have a log book of grievances.

[elefun]

May 5, 2024 12:59:37 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Oh man, what a bitch. I'm sorry she's making your life difficult.

It would be helpful to know if you just want to get her off your back or of you're looking to burn this bitch to the ground. Is it in any way possible she could be fired if she was found to be harassing you, or is she, say, besties with the director?

Regardless of which outcome you seek, I think the most important step is to document everything (dates/times/explanations) so you have a log book of grievances.

I'm not sure what level of consequences she would/should receive because she does it in ways that you have to almost be present for to witness.

Such as, she doesn't outright call me names or make fun of me personally. But she makes every work related interaction hell by either trying to knock me down a peg purposefully, or by being hostile if she can't find a way to make me look stupid.

Eta the ED loves her so I'd have to have clear evidence of harassment for her to be potentially fired

[ellipses84]

Document, document, document! Either .pdf emails and keep on a flash drive in your purse or off site, or email them to your personal email. Save all your employee reviews as well. Someone I know was recently targeted and fired for unjust cause and they really should have been documenting the situation for the past few months (even though they’d worked there 5 years with no issues and had a good review in winter). Luckily unemployment sided with them and not the employer, buts it’s still so messed up they worked there so long, got no severance and was fired instead of laid off. It reminded me employers will protect the org over people and someone like your coworker may be awful to you but good at office politics and manipulating management.

I would talk to HR and your boss again and ask them how they think you should proceed as things are escalating. Keep it more about moving forward than the details of past incidents, agree to boundaries and report to HR whenever the coworker violates those boundaries.

You can calmly say something like, Please don’t yell at me, or We can discuss this once you calm down. If you can avoid it, I might try to limit engagement in person and stick to more communication in writing. Like if they are running a meeting you could ask a question at the end that would be a simple answer about logistics, like when is the deadline, but if you have more complex questions, I would email them to her and cc: a smaller group that needs to know later (whether that’s just your ED or a couple coworkers involved in a project). Phrase it tactfully, like After the meeting I was thinking X and wondered about Y. Maybe she’ll be better at responding if she has time to answer. She seems out of her depth in the new role and doesn’t seem good at managing or feels defensive because she doesn’t know the answers on the spot. If she approaches you in person, be polite, calm and listen, basically limiting interaction to the minimum needed. If she yells report it to HR. If you think you need clarity on in person discussions you can email a confirmation…. Like recapping our convo, I’m going to follow up by doing this…

[livinitup]

When you wrote this : “She asked for a meeting Monday.”

Who is the “she”? The Executive Director? If so, do you know the agenda or goal of the meeting? Can you ask? Will the bitchy supervisor be there, too?

In my experience, ED’s back their supervisors, even in the most egregious and obviously poor supervisor circumstances. I don’t know why. It’s almost like a toxic workplace trait that abusive superiors are better? Doing their job? I really don’t know. In reality, it usually means the org looses good line staff and the bad superior stays too long reeking damage in many unnecessary ways.

The best I can offer is to frame it as “concerns that these attacks on you (in front of others, in team meetings) create a chilling environment for the team that results in poor execution of directives and tasks, especially in a changing and dynamic work environment.” Because it takes the focus off of you and your feelings (which it seems no one cares about, sadly) and squarely on the work of the team which should greatly concern the ED. Do you see the difference? I’ve only seen an ED motivated to change a supervisor when it seems like the whole team is suffering. So, what you want to convey is that this assistant supervisor is a BIG problem, beyond just you.

Furthermore, if you can make a case that these behaviors model toxic behaviors that are showing up with how staff treats your client population - abrupt, dismissive, angry, it could get some traction.

Maybe it’s a good thing the ED wants to learn more. Maybe the ED just wants to put you on notice that you are the problem. Hard to know.

Either way, yield NO GROUND that you are anything but a stellar, amazing employee. Bring forth your very best examples that you are dedicated and effective. Although hard, try your best to sing your own praise. Seems to me, people who can do this (I find it very hard) really shift the energy of awful EDs from seeing you as a target of poor performance to one of “this person is great”. And as a result, the bitchy supervisor looses credibility and looks stupid and vindictive.

It’s hard. I wish you luck.

Finally, think of the outcome you want. Can you move to another team not under this person’s supervision? ED’s are usually pretty good at moving people around. When they absolutely have to. What else can you offer as a solution?

[VillainV]

The only advice I have is to try to stick your facts and not get emotional. She does these things. The result is that I avoid interacting with her to preserve my dignity. Team productivity has suffered because of how she treats me and others.

Does your workplace have any working definition of “toxic leadership” or have a dignity and respect policy? If she’s in violation of a written policy, be ready to cite the policy and examples of how she is violating it. The best working definition of “toxic leadership” that I have found is:

“A toxic leader is an individual who utilizes negative, hostile, or destructive techniques or tactics that systematically degrade organizational objectives, climate, and/or morale. Toxic leaders display a host of counterproductive management and motivation styles; examples include and are not limited to fear, ridicule, belittling, bullying, and/or misplaced or unwelcome sarcasm.”

Good luck.

[sadlebred]

I don't have any advice other than what posters have given. I've been in a similar situation, and it's terrible. Luckily I was put back with a manager during a shuffling of personnel/restructuring that I have a good relationship with. The manager still treats her team like kindergartners.

[elefun]

May 5, 2024 15:36:53 GMT -5 livinitup said:

When you wrote this : “She asked for a meeting Monday.”

Who is the “she”? The Executive Director? If so, do you know the agenda or goal of the meeting? Can you ask? Will the bitchy supervisor be there, too?

In my experience, ED’s back their supervisors, even in the most egregious and obviously poor supervisor circumstances. I don’t know why. It’s almost like a toxic workplace trait that abusive superiors are better? Doing their job? I really don’t know. In reality, it usually means the org looses good line staff and the bad superior stays too long reeking damage in many unnecessary ways.

The best I can offer is to frame it as “concerns that these attacks on you (in front of others, in team meetings) create a chilling environment for the team that results in poor execution of directives and tasks, especially in a changing and dynamic work environment.” Because it takes the focus off of you and your feelings (which it seems no one cares about, sadly) and squarely on the work of the team which should greatly concern the ED. Do you see the difference? I’ve only seen an ED motivated to change a supervisor when it seems like the whole team is suffering. So, what you want to convey is that this assistant supervisor is a BIG problem, beyond just you.

Furthermore, if you can make a case that these behaviors model toxic behaviors that are showing up with how staff treats your client population - abrupt, dismissive, angry, it could get some traction.

Maybe it’s a good thing the ED wants to learn more. Maybe the ED just wants to put you on notice that you are the problem. Hard to know.

Either way, yield NO GROUND that you are anything but a stellar, amazing employee. Bring forth your very best examples that you are dedicated and effective. Although hard, try your best to sing your own praise. Seems to me, people who can do this (I find it very hard) really shift the energy of awful EDs from seeing you as a target of poor performance to one of “this person is great”. And as a result, the bitchy supervisor looses credibility and looks stupid and vindictive.

It’s hard. I wish you luck.

Finally, think of the outcome you want. Can you move to another team not under this person’s supervision? ED’s are usually pretty good at moving people around. When they absolutely have to. What else can you offer as a solution?

Sorry, the ED. And she didn't say what she wanted to meet about specifically. I do plan to deflect any points to say I caused this upon myself.

A. Any concerns with my questions/discussions during our team meetings have never been brought to my attention prior to me reporting concerns about asst director.

B. If asst director had issues with my didcussions/questions, I'm concerned that their response has been to treat me negatively rather than address it with me directly and/or with the ED.

Thank you so much for your advice. I love the idea of framing about the team vs about me.

[elefun]

Thank you everyone, I'm reading and everyone has such wonderful advice.

[AAM2012]

May 5, 2024 15:36:53 GMT -5 livinitup said:

When you wrote this : “She asked for a meeting Monday.”

Who is the “she”? The Executive Director? If so, do you know the agenda or goal of the meeting? Can you ask? Will the bitchy supervisor be there, too?

In my experience, ED’s back their supervisors, even in the most egregious and obviously poor supervisor circumstances. I don’t know why. It’s almost like a toxic workplace trait that abusive superiors are better? Doing their job? I really don’t know. In reality, it usually means the org looses good line staff and the bad superior stays too long reeking damage in many unnecessary ways.

100% agree that ED’s have the back of their supervisors even when it’s suuuuch a toxic work environment as I’m dealing with that now and just need to find a new job.

Didn’t read all the replies (yet), but did HR ask for your side of the story for what you reported?

Definitely document…but from my recent experience they DGAF (even for a large company..) as I’m in a right to work state.

You definitely don’t need to tell anyone you’re autistic.

I do recommend working on changing your approach when asking questions.

“Can you help me understand why we are making this change specifically to… xyz”

If it is something that you truly aren’t sure about your capacity to deliver what is being asked by the deadline then I would make a general comment of such to the greater team and say you will schedule time with your supervisor to discuss further (and follow through).

[AAM2012]

Just saw this was with your ED.

If it’s related to your co-worker, get your receipts out and go through every example li e by line.

Avoid “it feels like..” or “I’m paraphrasing..” (as you did in your post) and follow up in email.

Again, I sent 13+ pages of receipts to my ED on my dispute and it literally did nothing. So start preparing your resume, doing any training you can do to help you in the market, etc.

Ultimately, depending on if this continues to happen, decide if you want to stay there.

[mae0111]

I don’t have any advice, but I wanted to say that I’m sorry this is happening, and I understand your frustration. I actually just resigned because of similar treatment. I decided that I could not work where I’m not valued, am told that my work sucks, and where I’m snapped at for trying to answer questions. They can find someone else for that.

[elefun]

May 5, 2024 21:50:20 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

I don’t have any advice, but I wanted to say that I’m sorry this is happening, and I understand your frustration. I actually just resigned because of similar treatment. I decided that I could not work where I’m not valued, am told that my work sucks, and where I’m snapped at for trying to answer questions. They can find someone else for that.

I'm 100% actively job searching now

[waverly]

I'm sorry. We had a bully here that never seemed to cross the line enough to get fired, but we finally got her out when she was harassing a protected class who submitted a sexual harassment report. It was over 12 years that she was here. After she bullied someone into quitting, then she would find new victims. I can't believe that my boss let it go on for as long as it did. They were constantly in his office assuming he was trying to mediate something which didn't work.

Absolutely look for another job. Is the main issue asking questions in meetings? My other strategy was staying quiet in the meetings and asking questions to someone you trust later on via email. This only works if you are not required to do a presentation.

I was never bullied by the workplace bully, but my strategy was to never engage.  I literally ignored her and tried never to converse as much as possible unless it would be considered rude.  She was never rude in the meetings though because the boss was there, and he would have shut that down.  She was much more behind the back, so that boss wouldn't see it.  

[livinitup]

elefun Thinking of your situation and hoping your meeting yesterday went well. If it didn’t, I hope you have clarity about your worth and the next steps that benefit you.

[elefun]

May 7, 2024 9:47:01 GMT -5 livinitup said:

elefun Thinking of your situation and hoping your meeting yesterday went well. If it didn’t, I hope you have clarity about your worth and the next steps that benefit you.

Thank you! The ED rescheduled for today of course 🙄

[elefun]

Just an update

The meeting went so so. ED worked the angle hard that I'm "challenging" with my questions.

I asked why this was just being brought up now (me being challenging) and she said because the reports were anonymous with no details. Then you shouldn't bring it up in this scenario. If it's not relevant to bring me in, it's not relevant to bring up. I didn't say that to her of course.

There was an email that was hostile I forwarded from Friday and ED and HR said it didn't sound hostile to them (it was). I almost walked out then but I stayed.

ED said problem AD may not know how she's coming across. I said, AD clapped directly at people to cut them off during a team meeting. I said, I'd be shocked if someone doesn't understand how they're coming across.

ED said she's going to create a new format for our team meetings where there's a QnA at the end to alleviate the tension between me and management.

She said she understands how my brain works and she thinks it would be beneficial to have a sit down with management, including the problem AD. I agreed to this. I feel confident if anything is GOING to change, this would be the only way to get there. It probably won't.

I have my resume out to a couple new places already.

[mommyatty]

elefun, you should seriously consider disclosing your autism diagnosis. While you don’t feel like you need accommodations, they’ve now made it clear that you do. You need them to communicate directly with you, without hostility. They need to allow you to ask questions to understand how you are to implement processes. (I cannot figure out how to make decisions in the real world if I do not understand why we are doing something. I cannot answer ambiguous questions without understanding why the question is being asked.) Plus, you are a protected class. If they are complaining about your not being or acting neurotypical, which sounds like your ED’s only complaint, that’s a legal issue. And considering their mission, they should be very, very concerned about you leaving and/or filing a discrimination claim.

[meanie]

Document everything. Sounds like she is threatened by you in some way and possibly thinks your questions and input reflect poorly on her or make her look inferior - her problem, not yours.

I would speak to an employment attorney, they should have a free consultation available. Just run by the ADA by them, you are not required to disclose and shouldn't feel forced to because of this person. They may say it would benefit you to disclose, or they may say that disclosing would open you up to some other risk - who knows.

Remember that HR is not your friend. If you want to burn it down say things like "hostile work environment", but know HR will automatically be on the defense.

I'm really sorry you have been treated this way and put in this position.

[sparkythelawyer]

Get out. When this all proceeds in a few months, this conversation will not be memorialized about this person, but it will be about how they tried to counsel YOU about YOUR behavior. Get out. Document everything you can and GTFO of there. They're putting ducks in a row, not trying to help you.

[livinitup]

If a professional can’t run a meeting without being derailed by questions on the material they are covering there is no hope. If their solution is to be hostile, clap, (probably bark) and blame others, then there is no hope. If the ED has so little confidence that this person has any self awareness that they blithely dismiss it, then there is no hope.

It’s down right insulting to the AD to “reformat” her team meeting for her. If I was the AD, I would be mortified if my supervisor/ED thought this was a productive solution. Mortified.

The fact that the “solution”’is silence until some carved out Q&A time speaks volumes to their dysfunction - for not only running a meeting but also an organization.

Stay or go. But don’t hope anything will improve. Sadly.

[VillainV]

May 7, 2024 18:29:37 GMT -5 livinitup said:

If a professional can’t run a meeting without being derailed by questions on the material they are covering there is no hope. If their solution is to be hostile, clap, (probably bark) and blame others, then there is no hope. If the ED has so little confidence that this person has any self awareness that they blithely dismiss it, then there is no hope.

It’s down right insulting to the AD to “reformat” her team meeting for her. If I was the AD, I would be mortified if my supervisor/ED thought this was a productive solution. Mortified.

The fact that the “solution”’is silence until some carved out Q&A time speaks volumes to their dysfunction - for not only running a meeting but also an organization.

Stay or go. But don’t hope anything will improve. Sadly.

This. What is the point of even having a meeting if you don’t allow, and even encourage, people to ask questions! There’s also the option, if someone has more detailed or specific questions, to stay behind to answer them. But why, as a supervisor, would you NOT want your team to be 100% clear on what they’re being asked to?

[SusanBAnthony]

I'm sorry this is happening. I do agree with the PP who said I think you do need to disclose if you want to try to stay at your current job.

Do you think it's possible that you are asking a lot of questions that are worded bluntly to the point of perceived rudeness? The AD is doubtless being inappropriate and not handling it well. My H and I both work with quite a few autistic people. My h has a coworker who asks questions that NT people perceive as very rude in meetings. I can see how a less skilled leader could get flustered by multiple direct (perceived rude) questions. That doesn't excuse the behavior but a different meeting format might meet both of your needs more. I hope it's clear im not trying to blame you- she could respond to your questions with "let's take that offline".

[wildrice]

May 7, 2024 15:22:01 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

elefun, you should seriously consider disclosing your autism diagnosis. While you don’t feel like you need accommodations, they’ve now made it clear that you do. You need them to communicate directly with you, without hostility. They need to allow you to ask questions to understand how you are to implement processes. (I cannot figure out how to make decisions in the real world if I do not understand why we are doing something. I cannot answer ambiguous questions without understanding why the question is being asked.) Plus, you are a protected class. If they are complaining about your not being or acting neurotypical, which sounds like your ED’s only complaint, that’s a legal issue. And considering their mission, they should be very, very concerned about you leaving and/or filing a discrimination claim.

I agree with this. Not only will it protect your job, but it might be the light bulb moment that is needed to get everyone on the same page. It is ok to have your communication style accommodated - it's not exactly the same but I have ADHD and cluing my supervisors in on this has helped them understand where I am coming from when I forget things we discussed or have trouble planning a project. Knowing that my brain works a little different means I don't sound like an idiot AND they can better support me. It sounds like this woman is particularly insensitive - but that there also may be some things you can do to adjust your approach (even just letting them know the reason for your approach) too.

HR is not your "friend" but they are not your enemy either. Unless you have reason to believe they don't support employees, they should be able to help mediate situations. I have never worked in an HR department that would back a shitty supervisor over an employee. We would try to resolve the situation so both are able to continue working together, or come up with an alternative if things can't be resolved (like changing reporting or firing the supervisor if this is a pattern). We absolutely do not protect toxic supervisors. If your HR operates differently, that's another good reason to leave. It is not protecting the company to let employees leave due to toxic leadership!

[elefun]

May 7, 2024 18:55:35 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

I'm sorry this is happening. I do agree with the PP who said I think you do need to disclose if you want to try to stay at your current job.

Do you think it's possible that you are asking a lot of questions that are worded bluntly to the point of perceived rudeness? The AD is doubtless being inappropriate and not handling it well. My H and I both work with quite a few autistic people. My h has a coworker who asks questions that NT people perceive as very rude in meetings. I can see how a less skilled leader could get flustered by multiple direct (perceived rude) questions. That doesn't excuse the behavior but a different meeting format might meet both of your needs more. I hope it's clear im not trying to blame you- she could respond to your questions with "let's take that offline".

Oh I fully admit I'm frustrating to supervise. I openly ask "why" questions to understand the behind and I know a lot of NT people can't handle why questions (I don't just say why, more like can you explain why this process is changing this way). I also will point out inconsistencies in the hopes of gaining clarification (Again, I do it as respectfully as possible. Such as, i was previously told this, can you help me understand the difference), but again a lot of defensive NT people could easily take that personally.

But, I've never had supervisors treat me this badly before in every interaction. She treats me this way even when I'm not asking questions. I think she's taken it personally and now treats me with her emotions each time now.

[googled]

May 7, 2024 15:22:01 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

elefun, you should seriously consider disclosing your autism diagnosis. While you don’t feel like you need accommodations, they’ve now made it clear that you do. You need them to communicate directly with you, without hostility. They need to allow you to ask questions to understand how you are to implement processes. (I cannot figure out how to make decisions in the real world if I do not understand why we are doing something. I cannot answer ambiguous questions without understanding why the question is being asked.) Plus, you are a protected class. If they are complaining about your not being or acting neurotypical, which sounds like your ED’s only complaint, that’s a legal issue. And considering their mission, they should be very, very concerned about you leaving and/or filing a discrimination claim.

Echoing this. Their style of communication is not working for you, and they need to foster an environment where it’s OK to ask the questions that need to be asked to get the job done.

[elefun]

An update if anyone was interested:

I had the "how to treat people that act different than you and not be an asshole" seminar.

It went okay. Present was the entire management team that gets to tell me what to do... but no HR this time.

AD started out by saying I take no initiative and ask questions about what I should already know what to do (completely false, a total lie and she knows that).

I told her I disagreed, my questions stem from inconsistencies and constant flow of changes.

I explained that I felt I had been treated poor just based on asking questions and AD apologized "for being short". (ED was present so I think that's the only reason why.)

I explained how my brain works and I disclosed my autism.

We talked about how we can improve communication moving forward and I was fine with the suggestions.

I haven't had any major interactions with her since. I'm still planning on GTFO ASAP.

I have both meetings recorded on my phone as well because I don't like not having anything to back myself up if something else came down the line.

Eta they also pulled a lot of victim "were so busy we don't have time for questions" blah blah

Then hire another manager if you don't have enough manpower, or get better at your job. Even the ED was all in on poor management. 🙄

[mcsangel2]

elefun, did you get their consent before recording the meetings? If not, are you in a one party consent state?

[elefun]

May 16, 2024 15:25:04 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

elefun, did you get their consent before recording the meetings? If not, are you in a one party consent state?

I'm in a one party consent state

[livinitup]

Although a huge PITA, I’d suggest you write/document a complete follow-up on the discussion points & included stated action items and stated expectations.

Email the ED and the AD with a mild - as per our discussion on such & such date. With a statement that says something equally mild (you don’t want to get raked for a mean email) “Please review, add any missing items, and return as confirmed. Many thanks” cc HR (who was missing). If you have documentation of autism & want to share it, attach it (since you discussed it in the meeting.)

It won’t change anything but it is helpful for you to have a working document (in writing) while you still work there.

Good luck with the job search. You’d be amazed how much better your work life gets when you get a new job. Seriously. It happens every time.

ETA: Keep a hard copy of the email and a hard copy of the sent message with time stamp at home.