Attorneys - Esp those in smaller firms

[hockeywife]

My firm/boss has been unbearable for the past 6 months, so I've decided to explore other opportunities. I contacted a couple of attorneys who had previously approached me about joining their firms, and I have meetings with 2 set up for after the first of the year.

Both firms practice exclusively in my practice area (Trusts and Estates), which is great and exactly what I am looking for, but I think at least one of the firms does not pay associates a flat salary (what I'm used to), but rather, pay a base and then a percentage of their receivables.

If you are at a small to mid-size firm, how is your compensation plan structured?

A lot of the work I do is flat-fee, so tracking billables for bonuses and such can be difficult.

Also, if you're willing to share, how much PTO do you get, what is your maternity policy, and what other benefits to you get?

ETA: Obviously, I'm getting a little ahead of myself re: talking about salary, but I want to be prepared, or at least have an idea of what a "non-traditional" compensation plan might look like.

[Deleted]

Hi Hockey! Long time no see. No advice but good luck to you!

[hockeywife]

Hi NQB! I've been lurking here and there, but I didnt notice your ticker - Congrats! How exciting

[Deleted]

Dec 6, 2012 15:56:08 GMT -5 hockeywife said:

Hi NQB! I've been lurking here and there, but I didnt notice your ticker - Congrats! How exciting

Thanks!

[kadams767]

I work for a small firm, but I don't think that my compensation is non-traditional, so I might not be much help.

I am paid a base salary that is not tied to hours or billables, and I typically receive two bonuses per year. One is merit-based and one is based on firm profits.

A lot of my work is flat fee as well, but I am still required to track billables. Though, bonus and other compensation are not tied to billable hours.

I currently get 25 PTO days, and I am a 5th year associate. I think they offer 15 days when you are first hired. The firm offers 12 weeks paid maternity leave, with the option of 4 additional weeks unpaid. I also have employer-paid health insurance for both DH and I, and they pay for my phone and iPad data package. We also receive a 3% safe harbor 401(k) contribution from the firm and a discretionary % of profit sharing is also contributed to 401(k).

Edited after Cosmos posted: They also pay bar registration, CLE fees, membership to 3 professional associations, and registration costs for industry events. I believe we also have some form of LTD, but it's been so long since I filled out those forms, I can't recall.

And we have free water, tea, hot chocolate and a million types of K-cups, along with whatever various snacks the office shopper happens to pick up when they do the kitchen supplies.

[Deleted]

I only get a salary- I don't get any credit for my clients, unfortunately. But my motivation for bringing in work is that they'll take it into consideration around bonus time, and I need to have a book of business if I want to make partner. The partners earn substantially more than I do, so if I make partner in 2 years, my salary is going to skyrocket. That's my motivation.

Sorry I can't help with the compensation plan, but 99% of what I do is billed per hour.

Benefits:
- health insurance (I pay a fraction of the cost)
- 401K matching - 3% safe harbor
- ML- I get 2 weeks for every year I've been here. We are TTC now, so the earliest I will give birth will be at my 3 year anniversary- so I'll get 6 weeks paid.
- LTD (60% of my salary- 90 day waiting period, which would be covered under my state STD plan)
- they pay for my cell and my gas
- malpractice, bar dues, fees for all organizations, CLEs, etc
- bonuses 2x a year
- all the soda and coffee/tea I can drink (keurig)
- lunches every Friday (and often other times as well)
- 18 PTO days (I think this actually increased in Sept, hmmm)
- FSA for childcare and medical

[Susie]

I get a base salary + a percentage of receipts brought in that are beyond essentially the cost to have me on as an employee. For the past 2 years, my base salary has worked out to about 68% of my total comp, the other 32% comes from quarterly, receipts-based bonuses (which feel more like commissions). For new business, originators get a % of all receipts for the first 3 years that we have the client, whether the originator does the work or not.

I have been considering asking for a "raise" in my salary, because obviously my productivity supports it, and I'd rather get more money in my biweekly checks than hang around waiting for 4 bonuses a year. We'll see. If I get it, the amount I have to receive before I get into bonus territory will just go up.

Much of my work is flat rate. We count billing and receipt targets for reviews and for bonuses in dollars instead of hours as a result. I don't know that it really matters much.

We don't have a PTO policy. It's discretionary. I've never found it to be restrictive. I sometimes feel guilty taking longer, international vacations, because some part of me feels like I'm not technically entitled to any time off at all. But as long as my matters are covered before I go, and I meet my targets, it's never been an issue.

In terms of other benefits... we get a 3% match into a simple IRA, of both salary and bonuses. Our health insurance is ridiculously expensive, but fortunately I'm on Calvin's. We get paid downtown parking, a snack- and drink-stocked kitchen, and CLE and 2 bar association membership paid for.

Maternity is a sore spot here, and I'd actually love to hear what you find out is standard for our geographic area. We have employer-paid STD that pays a capped, fairly paltry amount for 5 of 6 weeks of a mat leave (still only 6 even if you have a c-section). (Week #1 is a waiting period.) Any time beyond that is unpaid. Since we don't have PTO, we can't use PTO to make an otherwise unpaid mat leave, paid, like many other employers allow. Supposedly our bonus threshold is prorated for the time we're out on disability, but it seems to work differently each time.

Whew. Maybe some of that is helpful? I am obviously not in the same practice area, but same geographic area and same experience level (right? I am 6th year). I hope you find something that is a good fit!

ETA: If there is anything you want to know more about, feel free to ask. I am not particularly shy about numbers/details, but at the same time I don't want to put it out there unless it's helpful.

[Bob Loblaw]

I'm salaried with a bonus that's not directly tied to my performance.

In addition to office holidays (about 10 days per year), I have 4 weeks PTO (I started with 3 and got an extra week after 3 years). I have never even come close to using all of my PTO, though.

Other benefits: health insurance, 3% 401k match, all professional association fees, pretty much unlimited funds to use for client development, parking.

I have no clue on the maternity policy and I don't want to be the one to ask.

[hockeywife]

Thank you for all the answers. If anyone else has anything to add it is very much appreciated!

Dec 6, 2012 16:02:43 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

I am paid a base salary that is not tied to hours or billables, and I typically receive two bonuses per year. One is merit-based and one is based on firm profits.

If your merit based bonuses are not tied to billables, then how is it tracked? Also, is your bonus a significant % of your base salary?

We dont get bonuses at my firm

Dec 6, 2012 16:02:53 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

The partners earn substantially more than I do, so if I make partner in 2 years, my salary is going to skyrocket. That's my motivation.

This is how it is at my current firm, but tbh, I'd dont think that the partners make substantially more than I do - maybe 75% more, which doesnt end up being that much, so my motivation is waning...how do you know? Just a good guess?

Dec 6, 2012 16:11:05 GMT -5 Susie said:

Maternity is a sore spot here, and I'd actually love to hear what you find out is standard for our geographic area.

Since we don't have PTO, we can't use PTO to make an otherwise unpaid mat leave, paid, like many other employers allow.

Thanks, Susie. Your info was really helpful. Although, I find your bonus situation kind of weird in that every raise you get just raises the threshold for bonus qualification..

Unfortunately, the ML at my current firm is very similar, except they dont offer STD as a benefit. I can use vacation days, but I have "unlimited" Sick and Pers, therefore, I can't use them...

Dec 6, 2012 16:20:37 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

Comp structure: flat base salary not tied to billables or receivables. 25% of flat fee projects from my client base. 10-25% of billable revenue from my client base. Year end bonus is purely discretionary, as are other random bonuses.

Thanks, Farmville! Do you know the approximate breakdown b/t your base and your salary from your clients?

I have a fairly good book of business, but clients only need so much estate planning, you know?

Dec 6, 2012 16:23:26 GMT -5 Bob Loblaw said:

I have no clue on the maternity policy and I don't want to be the one to ask.

I really hope these firms bring it up as part of the "compensation package" We want kids sooner rather than later, so it's pretty important, but I dont want to scare anyone off (yes, of course, I know they shouldnt take that into consideration, blah, blah, but still!)

[Deleted]

I would only accept a job with a base salary that is a fair and competitive salary. A bonus structure on top of that is great, but I don't want to have to rely on an additional payment on top of my salary to make ends meet. I've been at two firms where I had a base plus a bonus, but the bonus was essential to earn a decent living, and I got screwed both times.

I've never really had a strict PTO policy. I have also never had a firm with a maternity leave policy. When my son was born, my firm offered me two weeks paid (my vacation time) plus four weeks unpaid. Eight unpaid weeks seems pretty standard for colleagues of mine at small firms in my area.

I've worked for four small firms, and only one offered health insurance. They paid the entire premium for the employee but nothing for spouse or dependents. Two of the firms offered an IRA and 3% matching. Really, benefits have been pretty shitty at all the firms I've worked for.

[kadams767]

Dec 7, 2012 10:32:09 GMT -5 hockeywife said:

Thank you for all the answers. If anyone else has anything to add it is very much appreciated!

Dec 6, 2012 16:02:43 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

I am paid a base salary that is not tied to hours or billables, and I typically receive two bonuses per year. One is merit-based and one is based on firm profits.

If your merit based bonuses are not tied to billables, then how is it tracked? Also, is your bonus a significant % of your base salary?

We dont get bonuses at my firm

I wish I could be more help, but it isn't tied to anything other than the managing partner's opinion of my work and my year. We provide self-evaluations prior to our reviews, and outline areas where we feel we have done an exceptional job, gone above and beyond, taken on new responsibilities, etc. Last year, my two bonuses combined were 18% of my base salary.

[Deleted]

I know because the partners were commenting on how another partner is taking a big pay cut to become a state employee (not naming the position bc of privacy reasons, but its a big position appointed by the governor). And the salary of his new position is a lot more than I earn.

[kadams767]

Whoa, your partners only make 75% more than you do? Are there different tiers of partners, like equity v. nonequity? I can definitely see being indifferent about making partner in that case.

[hockeywife]

Dec 7, 2012 11:07:07 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Whoa, your partners only make 75% more than you do? Are there different tiers of partners, like equity v. nonequity? I can definitely see being indifferent about making partner in that case.

That's my best guess. I could be way off, but I dont think so. There my be different tiers, but I'm not sure. There are other perks like a company car, gas card, cell phone, additional life insurance, etc., but still. I have no desire to bust my ass to "only" make 75% more than I do now...

But how do you even broach this topic to verify?!?

[Susie]

Dec 7, 2012 10:32:09 GMT -5 hockeywife said:

I find your bonus situation kind of weird in that every raise you get just raises the threshold for bonus qualification.

No joke. It was nice when I was a newbie, but by now it's getting really tiresome. Basically, newbs have the potential to make just as much money as people who have been here for a decade, if they can just churn out enough work. There is no discernable value placed on longevity, experience, loyalty, or the wider knowledge base that experience gives you. It has left me less and less satisfied as the years go on. And also worried about having kids, because the only thing that matters to total comp, beyond my base salary, is how much you received this quarter, with absolutely no regard for years in, etc.

The only actual change to my compensation was the 2% increase in my bonus basis percentage when I was promoted from associate to senior associate. It's kind of laughable. Although I make good money, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my eye open for a position where I felt like my experience would be more valued.

[ESF]

Dec 7, 2012 10:43:06 GMT -5 @godawgs said:

I would only accept a job with a base salary that is a fair and competitive salary. A bonus structure on top of that is great, but I don't want to have to rely on an additional payment on top of my salary to make ends meet. I've been at two firms where I had a base plus a bonus, but the bonus was essential to earn a decent living, and I got screwed both times.

I've never really had a strict PTO policy. I have also never had a firm with a maternity leave policy. When my son was born, my firm offered me two weeks paid (my vacation time) plus four weeks unpaid. Eight unpaid weeks seems pretty standard for colleagues of mine at small firms in my area.

I've worked for four small firms, and only one offered health insurance. They paid the entire premium for the employee but nothing for spouse or dependents. Two of the firms offered an IRA and 3% matching. Really, benefits have been pretty shitty at all the firms I've worked for.

Have we worked for the same places?

I agree 1000% with your first paragraph.

I'm at a firm where my base salary plus hours bonuses is OK, but I have no benefits of any kind, except for the basic bar/CLE stuff, so really, it sucks. There's great bonus offerings for referrals and work on certain cases, but they are hard to get because we do long term contingency cases, so I'm finding that (1) they are somewhat illusory; and (2) it's held me back from trying to find a better job because I realized that I've been staying here waiting for payouts from certain cases, and it's starting to look like I may never see the amount of money I once believed I would be getting.

Also, don't underestimate how difficult it is to bring in cases while you are also focusing on skills development and trying to keep your head above water. Some people can certainly manage it, and some people are probably even better suited to a job like that. But it's not for everyone. There's a reason why the normal system focuses on skills first and doesn't reflect any sort of risk or uncertainty, then gives you a salary that compensates you for client development later - that's the environment most of us need.

Higher base with little to no bonuses is a far better structure, particularly when you are new-ish to practicing.