CANDIDE DISCUSSION IN HERE!

[smock]

We know you've been waiting weeks to discuss Candide. Well guess what. Candide hates us. So fuck discussing it in a chat room since we are all busy creatures. Instead, let's discuss it here!

And if you want, I can post some of the discussion questions from when I've taught Candide. lol

[smock]

Fun fact: Voltaire was banging a married chick who translated Newton's Principia Mathematica into French.

[Deleted]

I'll need questions from professor smock.

Also, have you seen Ridicule? It's a French movie about wit in the court of France.

[smock]

I have not! But I think I saw a clip of some guys verbally slamming each other Enlightenment style.

[smock]

And here are some Smock questions, written way back in 2006:

What is Voltaire’s main point? Is he just trying to bash everyone and everything, or does he have a goal? Who does he not attack?

And on the end, Candide's conclusion: "we must cultivate our garden."
What does that mean?
Is it a metaphor? and if so, for what?! Does he mean it literally?
Is it an optimistic or pessimistic view of man’s purpose? (i.e. improve things, be content vs. everything is so depressing)
Do you find this ending comforting, or unfulfilling?

[Deleted]

Just go ahead and give me my F.

[smock]

Ha!

[Deleted]

I found it hard to take anything away from Candide aside from a collection of odd, fantastical stories but I'm blaming that on my lack of understanding of the culture at the time and an unfamiliarity with the viewpoint he was skewering.

I imagine it's akin to reading the Jonathan Swift piece without understanding the problem of the Irish.

[fussbucket]

Hey maybe we should read "A Modest Proposal" for the next TIPBC. You guys could get me to participate.

And, um, I haven't read Candide since high school, over 20 years ago. But from my recollection, I think the whole "cultivate your garden" thing is ultimately a humanistic and egalitarian view exalting the unique and reliable capabilties and potential in each and all of us, and hence optimistic and anti-authoritarian at the same time. Really it's the authoritarians who had a vested interest in making people want and seek what they couldn't have to maintain control over them, but humans with their own intrinsic knowledge and wisdom can do perfectly well with what they have without these authoritarian structures keeping them in line.

Also "Cunegonde" is a raunchy play on words in French. Kinda like that chick in Goldfinger.

[motzie]

Omg you guys. THIS is the Candide post finally?!? I was expecting a 5 pager once it finally happened.

[smock]

That's an interesting take, Fuss. I'm more pessimistic, I guess, and see it more like "the entire world is fucked, and as a group we have collectively lost so much, that fuck the world, let's just focus on ourselves." In that sense, it is definitely anti-authoritarian (and clearly Voltaire had no love for institutions), but also pessimistic.

Although I guess you could also see it as sort of self-help: looking outside for happiness and validation has failed, so let's all focus inward on the things we can control.

[dixienormous]

appropriate that the overture to Candide just came on my iPod.

As for the "cultivate your garden" I agree with Fuss. Create something beautiful out of whatever it is that you're given.

Cunegonde makes me cringe every time I have to read the name, i don't know why. (and I hate her song in the show)

[Muddled]

Candide who?

[Muddled]

I'm not so sure that Smock and Fuss are saying completely different things.

[smock]

But I said pessimistic and Fuss said optimistic.

/gavel

[fussbucket]

I agree the overall tone of the story as told seems pessimistic. But to me it's a question of what is the underlying purpose of satire? Is it to say, "look at you fools you are bad and should feel bad"? Or is it to say, "I'm pointing this out as a way of saying I think we can do better." I see satire as the latter. It's rooted in a vision of a better version of our world that doesn't exist but could.

[starrieskies]

I kind of took the whole "cultivate your garden" as improving the world around you to make yourself happy... Kind of a make lemonade thing...

Also, I was laughing aftr reading the "lady butt" chapter and tried to explain to H why I was laughing. He now thinks I'm insane, but his reaction only made me laugh harder...

[smock]

I can get on board with that, Fuss.

I see Voltaire as, like, the first hipster. He's pointing out everything that sucks, and in some ways promoting his own little group of philosophes as the only practical/rational ones around. But I do think the ending is intentionally ambiguous, because "cultivate our garden" can mean a lot of things: retreating from the world, self-improvement, or even a more optimistic interpretation of the possibilities for change.

[fussbucket]

And don't you think Voltaire is leaving that exercise in ambiguity to the reader because he thinks the reader is capable of processing the irony and discovering his or her own truth in it?

[Deleted]

One of the last lines in the movie I referenced earlier in the thread was directed toward the French court and was along the lines of, "You have all of Voltaire's wit but none of his compassion" so I'm going to go with Fuss's make the world beautiful theory.

[fussbucket]

Yay, I win book club!

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2012 1:07:51 GMT -5 motzie said:

Omg you guys. THIS is the Candide post finally?!? I was expecting a 5 pager once it finally happened.

Really? THIS is your contribution?

Did you read the book?

[smock]

I know Muddled read it, too! tattle tattle!

[imoan]

Dec 18, 2012 1:07:51 GMT -5 motzie said:

Omg you guys. THIS is the Candide post finally?!? I was expecting a 5 pager once it finally happened.

I guess this means you'll be joining us for next month's book club and will come prepared with a shitton of speaking points. Awesome!

[smock]

I'm also going to start posting my thoughts in individual posts do this gets up to five pages.

[smock]

Voltaire is funny.

[Deleted]

I didn't laugh once.

[smock]

Really?! Not even at the half-butts?

[Deleted]

nah, more of a hmm, interesting.

[fussbucket]

Dec 18, 2012 15:57:39 GMT -5 smock said:

I'm also going to start posting my thoughts in individual posts do this gets up to five pages.

Good