Sympathy for ADAM Lanza

[ECB]

This article is about his mother - which has already been discussed. It's the picture, though, that caught my eye.

news.yahoo.com/few-memorials-forgotten-victim-gunmans-mother-074052159.html

At the memorial, candy canes were placed w/ the names and age of each victim. And there is one for Adam.

That bothers me. Really bothers me.

[Deleted]

Can you feel badly for someone while acknowledging that they did something terrible? I don't know that I feel badly for him per say but more that things got to the point where they did. He must have been in a lot of pain and/or confusion. I honestly can't even imagine it. But I think that a lot of people must have failed him along the way for him to reach the point that he did and I feel badly for that.

[housegeek]

I don't have room in my emotions for sympathy of him, but I respect that some can. Sympathy doesn't equal condonation.

[ECB]

Dec 21, 2012 10:09:57 GMT -5 @lcap said:

Can you feel badly for someone while acknowledging that they did something terrible? I don't know that I feel badly for him per say but more that things got to the point where they did. He must have been in a lot of pain and/or confusion. I honestly can't even imagine it. But I think that a lot of people must have failed him along the way for him to reach the point that he did and I feel badly for that.

I agree with you- but I still don't feel he should be listed as a "Shooting victim" (the candy canes were at a memorial for the shooting victims). He may be a victim in other ways, but not in that way.

[Deleted]

I have sympathy for him, for what it must have been like to be isolated in that house with your mama all the damned time, for whatever was going on in there.

But he is not a victim and I don't have sympathy for him as a victim nor is any of my sympathy directed towards what he did. I can sympathize with someone who was struggling. My sympathy ends when they start shooting people, even when those people aren't children.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2012 10:23:03 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

I DO have sympathy in a major way for Andrea Yates who killed all her children, though. She was terrifically sick, and I feel SO bad for her if she ever gets well enough to know what she did. And that has been a pretty unpopular opinion over the years.

I do too, is it really that unpopular on here? She was clearly insane. Didn't her H even stand by her at the time?

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2012 10:37:40 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Dec 21, 2012 10:29:20 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

Catholic ringing in - that's not flameful, it's true. Church leaders are a good resource for a lot of things, but if you're dealing with the kids of "demons" (in SOOOOO many ways) that AY was dealing with, you need someone with a DEA license who can write you a damn prescription. It's not like you just need a sounding board.

My pastor was the first person I saw when I was really struggling back when I was dealing with job issues. She was great. She also encouraged me to see my doctor and even gave me the name of a therapy practice.

She is kind and compassionate and a good listener and gives good advice, but she was the first to tell me that she is not a trained mental health professional.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2012 10:45:15 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

Dec 21, 2012 10:41:49 GMT -5 @lcap said:

I do too, is it really that unpopular on here? She was clearly insane. Didn't her H even stand by her at the time?

I don't have any sympathy for that evil fuck. *her husband* who she told she wanted to kill herself or the babies and he left her alone. fucker.

Oh I didn't know about that part. I wonder if that's why he didn't throw her to the woves; if he realized he was culpable too and felt guilty.

God, that's another sad situation. I don't know, I usually feel badly for most of the people in these messes. I just don't think that anyone is born purely evil, you know? There are usually extenuating circumstances (mental illness, abuse, random mistakes, etc.) that lead them there. Not that it's an excuse but it's sad. It's sad for everyone involved.

[teflep]

I have sympathy for him and all the darkness he struggled with in his home and self, but he is not a victim and I am still pretty appalled by the evil he unleashed on innocents.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2012 10:59:19 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Dec 21, 2012 10:51:35 GMT -5 @lcap said:

Oh I didn't know about that part. I wonder if that's why he didn't throw her to the woves; if he realized he was culpable too and felt guilty.

God, that's another sad situation. I don't know, I usually feel badly for most of the people in these messes. I just don't think that anyone is born purely evil, you know? There are usually extenuating circumstances (mental illness, abuse, random mistakes, etc.) that lead them there. Not that it's an excuse but it's sad. It's sad for everyone involved.

For me, this is going to depend on whether psychopathy/sociopathy are "diseases." They have traits like diseases - and they even have physical characteristics, things that can be seen on MIR imaging. But to my knowledge, they don't have treatments or cures - though I will defer to our mental health professionals on the board to the extent they can shed more light on this.

So, I don't really know how to feel sorry for them. It's not like someone who has bipolar disorder and there's a real person under that who, with help, can be productive and safe and happy. A sociopath... that IS who they are. It's not some imbalanced chemical, or some situational response. This is how their brain works (or doesn't). They are a person who can conceive of, plan, and execute the mass murder of 20 grade schoolers. Are they a victim of a disease? That really begs the question: is evil a disease? Or is it just evil?

I don't know that much about sociopathy either. But I think in some cases it can b e a situational response. What about RAD (reactive reattachment disorder)? Very sad circumstances causes that. I know that people disagree on whether a child can recover once they receive that diagnosis. But I think it is an extenuating circumstance. They didn't ask to be abandoned or abused as a baby, you know? Not that it's an excuse to hurt others but it's an explanation.

[Deleted]

is it possible to have sympathy for his lost humanity, without having sympathy for him?

[Deleted]

More L&O cropping up here, but remember that chick on SVU who hoarded her kids up in the house, fed only organic and vegan under the strictest senses, no sugar, no treats (not even organic, vegan ones), was terrified of letting her children out in public, etc after her husband was killed?

The youngest ran away and was eating out of garbage cans and was eventually shot by his older brother after mom ranted about how the evil in the world was going to eat all their faces?

I'm wondering. I really am.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2012 11:04:53 GMT -5 teflep said:

I have sympathy for him and all the darkness he struggled with in his home and self, but he is not a victim and I am still pretty appalled by the evil he unleashed on innocents.

Sits next to teflep.

[ECB]

Dec 21, 2012 11:36:30 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I'm wondering. I really am.

This is why I'm actually trying to not read TOO much about this or form any strong opinions - I think there is a lot more that will come out before this is done.

[MixedBerryJam]

Is it flameworthy that I have more compassion for Adam than I have for his mom? Because I feel he's a victim of a different sort. I realize I don't have all the facts (and never expect to of course) but someone let that child down long before last Friday.

[druidp]

Until any definitive information is out there, other than a barber's personal account of these people... I'm withholding judgment.

[KateAggie]

Dec 21, 2012 12:00:25 GMT -5 MixedBerryJam said:

Is it flameworthy that I have more compassion for Adam than I have for his mom? Because I feel he's a victim of a different sort. I realize I don't have all the facts (and never expect to of course) but someone let that child down long before last Friday.

So is the Dad equally to blame? If he's been under care for mental issues, does that change it? Should she have force fed him medication?

The speculation that she did this to him sickens me. Especially with no evidence to support these accusations, other than his actions, and past visits to a gun range with no known timeline of his mental issues.

[MixedBerryJam]

KA, I realize forcing medications isn't the answer and all, and my gut response is completely 100% oversimplifying, but yes, both parents let him down. I'm not saying he should be counted as a victim of the Sandy Hook massacre; I'm just saying he's a victim. And to be honest, my heart hurts for the pain he was in, moreso than for a mom of an apparently clearly ill child who thought hoarding guns and teaching him to shoot was a good idea.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

The "pastor" who counseled Andrea Yates should be held responsible too for her actions since he sent her bible verses that seemed to specifically point her in that direction (I watch a lot of shows about real-life murders).
I have sympathy for Adam because I think a lot of people let him down who may have been able to help. Just like I sympathize with his mother for what happened. I think a lot of things went wrong for them. Without knowing the details, it's hard to articulate exactly why, but I feel for everyone in this situation. I hurt for everyone, even Adam.

[KateAggie]

Dec 21, 2012 12:11:24 GMT -5 MixedBerryJam said:

KA, I realize forcing medications isn't the answer and all, and my gut response is completely 100% oversimplifying, but yes, both parents let him down. I'm not saying he should be counted as a victim of the Sandy Hook massacre; I'm just saying he's a victim. And to be honest, my heart hurts for the pain he was in, moreso than for a mom of an apparently clearly ill child who thought hoarding guns and teaching him to shoot was a good idea.

We always hear in hindsight how "clearly ill" people were. We have ZERO idea what mental issues he struggled with, what the diagnosis were, when the onset of those issues started, how much was blamed on Aspergers. We don't know how the guns were stored. Yet without all of this info, people want to place more blame a woman shot 4 times in the face by her own son, than they do the son who not only did this but then massacred 20 children and 6 other adults. There are a ton of leaps made here with no real facts.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

KA, thank you. I'm with you.

[JLN]

I do feel badly for him. A person has to be incredibly tormented, troubled, possibly abused, etc to do something as heinous as he did. You don't just decide to shoot up a school one day. Things like this build and there must have been something that led him on this path.

Maybe that's flameful, I don't know, but I truly believe that people aren't born evil.

[shadow]

Dec 21, 2012 10:59:19 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Dec 21, 2012 10:51:35 GMT -5 @lcap said:

Oh I didn't know about that part. I wonder if that's why he didn't throw her to the woves; if he realized he was culpable too and felt guilty.

God, that's another sad situation. I don't know, I usually feel badly for most of the people in these messes. I just don't think that anyone is born purely evil, you know? There are usually extenuating circumstances (mental illness, abuse, random mistakes, etc.) that lead them there. Not that it's an excuse but it's sad. It's sad for everyone involved.

For me, this is going to depend on whether psychopathy/sociopathy are "diseases." They have traits like diseases - and they even have physical characteristics, things that can be seen on MIR imaging. But to my knowledge, they don't have treatments or cures - though I will defer to our mental health professionals on the board to the extent they can shed more light on this.

So, I don't really know how to feel sorry for them. It's not like someone who has bipolar disorder and there's a real person under that who, with help, can be productive and safe and happy. A sociopath... that IS who they are. It's not some imbalanced chemical, or some situational response. This is how their brain works (or doesn't). They are a person who can conceive of, plan, and execute the mass murder of 20 grade schoolers. Are they a victim of a disease? That really begs the question: is evil a disease? Or is it just evil?

I'm not 100% sure (i've been out of the field for a bit and i'm rusty), but my understanding is that personality disorders are not curable. Unlike other disorders, the way they think, feel, their actions are ego-syntonic. They look at themselves and don't see anything wrong, don't have a problem with it. Other disorders are ego-dystonic, as in, they look at themselves and say "wtf did I just do?!" or see that what they feel or think isn't right or normal. They have more motivation to change. The only thing that motivates people with personality disorders to change is if their current situation isn't working for them. It's all about them and whether or not a therapist over a looooong period of time could get them to change their behavior in an acceptable way that they feel will also benefit them. Hope that made sense.

[2vermont]

Dec 21, 2012 12:25:55 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

KA, thank you. I'm with you.

I'll tritto that.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Dec 22, 2012 9:58:08 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Dec 21, 2012 15:33:08 GMT -5 shadow said:

I'm not 100% sure (i've been out of the field for a bit and i'm rusty), but my understanding is that personality disorders are not curable. Unlike other disorders, the way they think, feel, their actions are ego-syntonic. They look at themselves and don't see anything wrong, don't have a problem with it. Other disorders are ego-dystonic, as in, they look at themselves and say "wtf did I just do?!" or see that what they feel or think isn't right or normal. They have more motivation to change. The only thing that motivates people with personality disorders to change is if their current situation isn't working for them. It's all about them and whether or not a therapist over a looooong period of time could get them to change their behavior in an acceptable way that they feel will also benefit them. Hope that made sense.

This is really interesting. NPR did a blurb on personality disorders and specificall sociopathy the other day and they were talking about a lead researcher in this field who was trying to see if he could identify sociopathic brains based on MRI imaging only. He used imaging from his own brain as a control. At the end he realized that in some of the cases he had selected his own brain as the sociopathic one. And he was appalled and kind of terrified. But then he postulated that maybe there is a way to refocus the sociopathic brain and teach it how to feel empathy sort of intellectually rather than emotionally.

That's fascinating. I'm curious about why he selected himself as the control though. Knowing what we know about personality disorders, the researcher should be aware that even if he had one, he wouldn't be able to acknowledge it.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2012 12:00:40 GMT -5 druidp said:

Until any definitive information is out there, other than a barber's personal account of these people... I'm withholding judgment.

What she said.

Well, I am leaning one way. My lay opinion is that a fully functioning, developed mind is incapable of this. It's not a crime of passion. I feel that any possibility other than him having a very fractured and unwell mind is remote. But we don't know for sure, and I'm not sure we ever can, since he's gone.

[kwynn]

Dec 21, 2012 17:48:03 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

Dec 21, 2012 12:21:21 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

We always hear in hindsight how "clearly ill" people were. We have ZERO idea what mental issues he struggled with, what the diagnosis were, when the onset of those issues started, how much was blamed on Aspergers. We don't know how the guns were stored. Yet without all of this info, people want to place more blame a woman shot 4 times in the face by her own son, than they do the son who not only did this but then massacred 20 children and 6 other adults. There are a ton of leaps made here with no real facts.

I agree. It really sickens me to see people rush to blame his mother. Especially when we don't know much. It's gross.

Because of events in my life (my husband took his own life this past spring), I am VERY sensitive to ppl blaming others for the actions of the mentally ill. I hate when people say "the system failed him" or "his family failed him" or "his home life messed him up."

In my eyes, you are an adult. You need to be responsible for getting your own care. You need to be an active participant in that treatment.

Do issues emerge in childhood? Yes, and you have a responsibility to have your child treated, just as you would with any other disease. From all accounts I have read, Nancy was trying to get him treatment and exploring in-patient programs, but he was an adult.

Do we blame people if their spouse/adult child dies of cancer, especially if it is found late? Well, they should have been more in tune with what was going on, more responsive to the family member's concerns/symptoms. They should have pushed harder for medical care, right?

I realize I'm very sensitive because of my own personal situation, but some ppl with mental illness hide it unbelievable well, and even when they don't, there is very, very little you can do for an adult.

My husband completely hid his mental illness. I never believed it before when I'd see stuff on TV about someone committing suicide or doing some other terrible act---I'd always think "yeah, well, there were signs and you would know--I would have done X, Y, and Z to prevent this."

But I'm living proof that there is sometimes very little warning or things can be totally unpredictable with ppl--you never think someone you love is capable of something so terrible.

Lanza's older brother seems to be a productive member of society and he was raised by the same parents...so I am not going to blame the parents/the victim for Adam's behavior as he is an adult.

Sorry for the overshare, just wanted to put my two cents' worth in.

[druidp]

I just think of a girl I roomed with several years ago. Sweet, docile, smart, sense of humor, was a fellow youth group leader... and about a year after I moved, I got a call from the other girls we had lived with to let me know she had taken magic marker and written total gibberish all over the kitchen cabinets (they were white, so she used them as a whiteboard) which were translated from voices telling her about the end of the world, the future of her friends, and that the only way to save our society was to make sure two of our other youth leaders got married.

Out.of.the.fucking.blue. So yeah, I'm reserving judgment on anyone.

[overture]

I have sympathy for him and his mother in the sense that I'm sad for the potential they had to live normal, happy lives, and that for whatever reason, that didn't happen. As much as may have gone wrong in his life, at one point Lanza was a baby in the arms of his mother, who dreamed of what his life would be. And in her last moments, I wonder if she wondered where it had all gone wrong.

[ttt]

Every single person who they've interviewed who had contact with Adam Lanza said "there was something wrong with him. Not a single person has said "he seemed completely normal to me." If even his barber noticed that he was a kid with issues, then it was clearly not out of the blue.

Do we know what issues he actually had? No, obviously. I doubt his barber and classmates were privy to his psychiatric diagnoses, if he had any.

Unless everybody the media has found is completely full of it and he was actually a normal kid who was just quiet but never had any signs of mental illness, then his mom *had* to know something was wrong with him, that he was a troubled person. Maybe she didn't know what he was capable of - really, could anyone? - but at the very basic level, she kept deadly weapons (many of them!) in a home with a troubled, likely mentally ill child and she introduced him to these weapons (the ATF has confirmed that they went to the shooting range multiple times.

Just those facts make me feel like she made some very poor decisions as a parent, at the very least.