McMillan updated his calculator!

[gumi]

www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator

I like it - now you not only input your current race time, but your goal race time. You also include your age and gender.

[mrshandy]

Thanks!

Question, if you've never run a race before like a marathon, how do you know what your current time is?

Should you just double your half marathon time?

[clseale]

May 30, 2012 10:26:36 GMT -5 mrshandy said:

Thanks!

Question, if you've never run a race before like a marathon, how do you know what your current time is?

Should you just double your half marathon time?

No. Sadly, it does not equal out that way. Put your current 1/2 time as current and as goal. When you hit submit, it will show you a marathon time you're possibly capable of, having run that 1/2 time. This is of course assuming a decent marathon training plan is followed. It was within a few minutes of predicting my last marathon time.

ETA: My half PR is a 1:56. I put that in both places and it shows a 4:04:39 marathon. My last marathon (run 2 months after that 1/2 PR) was 4:03:15,

[ebeth]

yeah. I saw this. I don't totally understand it. is it just calculating your training paces based on your goal time? the equivalent performances don't look that different to me.

[clseale]

May 30, 2012 10:59:29 GMT -5 ebeth said:

yeah. I saw this. I don't totally understand it. is it just calculating your training paces based on your goal time? the equivalent performances don't look that different to me.

Basically. You say (as an example) I run a 3:45 marathon, but I'd like to run a 3:35 marathon. It spits out equivalent performances (of your CURRENT time, so that's probably why they don't look different) and then suggests paces you need to run your workouts at to meet your goal. I'm horrible with this though. The paces always seem so slow to me.

[shelbyann]

I really like that it refreshes on the same page instead of loading a new page. Much easier!

[gumi]

May 30, 2012 11:03:22 GMT -5 clseale said:

May 30, 2012 10:59:29 GMT -5 ebeth said:

yeah. I saw this. I don't totally understand it. is it just calculating your training paces based on your goal time? the equivalent performances don't look that different to me.

Basically. You say (as an example) I run a 3:45 marathon, but I'd like to run a 3:35 marathon. It spits out equivalent performances (of your CURRENT time, so that's probably why they don't look different) and then suggests paces you need to run your workouts at to meet your goal. I'm horrible with this though. The paces always seem so slow to me.

huh, I dont think the paces seem slow.

I want to run a 10k in 40 minutes. I never ran a 10k before so I put that as both my current time and goal time.

It says I run a 19:15 5K, which is pretty accurate.

He suggests doing long runs at 7:40, tempo at 6:35, mile repeats at what would be a 19:15 5K pace, and then shorter intervals at appropriately faster paces.

I think, if you look at your numbers and they seem slow, you need to adjust your goal time.

[clseale]

May 30, 2012 11:49:45 GMT -5 gumi said:

May 30, 2012 11:03:22 GMT -5 clseale said:

Basically. You say (as an example) I run a 3:45 marathon, but I'd like to run a 3:35 marathon. It spits out equivalent performances (of your CURRENT time, so that's probably why they don't look different) and then suggests paces you need to run your workouts at to meet your goal. I'm horrible with this though. The paces always seem so slow to me.

huh, I dont think the paces seem slow.

I want to run a 10k in 40 minutes. I never ran a 10k before so I put that as both my current time and goal time.

It says I run a 19:15 5K, which is pretty accurate.

He suggests doing long runs at 7:40, tempo at 6:35, mile repeats at what would be a 19:15 5K pace, and then shorter intervals at appropriately faster paces.

I think, if you look at your numbers and they seem slow, you need to adjust your goal time.

It's totally my issues with training too fast. No matter what I do I cannot make myself run my long runs slow enough. 1) It feels like I'm shuffling my feet and 2) I can't mentally wrap my head around the fact that I can magically just race a minute faster on race day. For my last marathon it said to run long runs (keep in mind I'm much slower than you lol) at 10:15-11:15 pace. That's a minute to 1.5 minutes slower than goal pace. I ran my 22 miler at 9:38. Now that was talking here and there and while I was tired, I definitely felt like I could have kept pushing. Race day I ran a 9:17. For me race day =/= 1-1.5 minutes faster than long, easy, conversational pace.

[jillybean222]

clseale
i have the same problem!!! my long runs are supposed to be 9:24-10:24 and it feels painfully slow. usually i try to stay around 9-9:30 for 1/2 the distance and pick it up to a comfortable pace for the remainder. i am injury-free thus far. i was 45 sec faster than comfy pace for my last half (which was also a whole baby ago so i'm not sure how it will translate this time around).

[gumi]

May 30, 2012 12:49:35 GMT -5 clseale said:

May 30, 2012 11:49:45 GMT -5 gumi said:

huh, I dont think the paces seem slow.

I want to run a 10k in 40 minutes. I never ran a 10k before so I put that as both my current time and goal time.

It says I run a 19:15 5K, which is pretty accurate.

He suggests doing long runs at 7:40, tempo at 6:35, mile repeats at what would be a 19:15 5K pace, and then shorter intervals at appropriately faster paces.

I think, if you look at your numbers and they seem slow, you need to adjust your goal time.

It's totally my issues with training too fast. No matter what I do I cannot make myself run my long runs slow enough. 1) It feels like I'm shuffling my feet and 2) I can't mentally wrap my head around the fact that I can magically just race a minute faster on race day. For my last marathon it said to run long runs (keep in mind I'm much slower than you lol) at 10:15-11:15 pace. That's a minute to 1.5 minutes slower than goal pace. I ran my 22 miler at 9:38. Now that was talking here and there and while I was tired, I definitely felt like I could have kept pushing. Race day I ran a 9:17. For me race day =/= 1-1.5 minutes faster than long, easy, conversational pace.

I think its also important to remember that he is talking average. I agree with you that if 9:38 pace is conversational, then 10:15 is too slow. But what if you warmed up slow, cool down slow, and did a section at marathon pace? Then it starts to give the right average.

Last year, I was asked to answer some questions because he was trying to factor in weather conditions (so your pace recommendations would be different in summer vs winter). That to me makes a lot of sense. My definition of "fast" and "slow" change if its hot and humid!

[clseale]

May 30, 2012 13:30:32 GMT -5 jillybean222 said:

clseale
i have the same problem!!! my long runs are supposed to be 9:24-10:24 and it feels painfully slow. usually i try to stay around 9-9:30 for 1/2 the distance and pick it up to a comfortable pace for the remainder. i am injury-free thus far. i was 45 sec faster than comfy pace for my last half (which was also a whole baby ago so i'm not sure how it will translate this time around).

I'm glad it's not just me. I'm already a decent bit faster than my last marathon, so I have an ambitious (yet attainable) goal for my next full. It says 9:47-10:47 for the long runs, but we've been keeping our maintenance runs of 10-12 miles under 9:00. The things is, I really don't think I can run this upcoming marathon any faster than a 8:45 pace (so I don't feel like my goal needs to be adjusted)....but if I'm going to make the 8:45 pace, I can't run my long runs at a 10:00. I feel like I have to keep it in the low 9's. It's probably a mental game, but it seems to work for me.

[clseale]

May 30, 2012 13:31:03 GMT -5 gumi said:

May 30, 2012 12:49:35 GMT -5 clseale said:

It's totally my issues with training too fast. No matter what I do I cannot make myself run my long runs slow enough. 1) It feels like I'm shuffling my feet and 2) I can't mentally wrap my head around the fact that I can magically just race a minute faster on race day. For my last marathon it said to run long runs (keep in mind I'm much slower than you lol) at 10:15-11:15 pace. That's a minute to 1.5 minutes slower than goal pace. I ran my 22 miler at 9:38. Now that was talking here and there and while I was tired, I definitely felt like I could have kept pushing. Race day I ran a 9:17. For me race day =/= 1-1.5 minutes faster than long, easy, conversational pace.

I think its also important to remember that he is talking average. I agree with you that if 9:38 pace is conversational, then 10:15 is too slow. But what if you warmed up slow, cool down slow, and did a section at marathon pace? Then it starts to give the right average.
Last year, I was asked to answer some questions because he was trying to factor in weather conditions (so your pace recommendations would be different in summer vs winter). That to me makes a lot of sense. My definition of "fast" and "slow" change if its hot and humid!

That's a good point. I could give that a try on a few runs. I usually tend to just take off and then usually add 1/2 a mile at the end for cool down. I should probably work on some better habits.

[stingsharkruns]

I also struggle with the idea of running long runs 1+ minutes slower than my intended race pace. Thankfully, my running group guy, has my long runs at an 8:30 pace.

[osulori]

May 30, 2012 14:54:27 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

I also struggle with the idea of running long runs 1+ minutes slower than my intended race pace. Thankfully, my running group guy, has my long runs at an 8:30 pace.

Part of me still struggles with the same concept, even though its been driven into my head by my running group coaches for the last couple of years. My long run pace is 9:30ish, and was when I ran my last HM PR (1:52:11 in 2010) so part of me knows it works...but then the other part of me is like "Well, why not work on running long runs at like 9 minute pace?". I think too much.

[clseale]

May 30, 2012 14:54:27 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

I also struggle with the idea of running long runs 1+ minutes slower than my intended race pace. Thankfully, my running group guy, has my long runs at an 8:30 pace.

I knew you were another one who liked to run her long runs faster. I think I'm going to push the pace through the summer and see where that gets me. If I'm running 8:45-8:50 (and still having conversations) on my long runs during the summer, I can probably push the pace for a February California marathon more than I'm admitting.....but that big of an improvement scares/intimidates me. lol My paces are dropping faster than I thought.

When do you start training? In the next month or two, right? I love that you're already planning your 2nd. :Y:

[gumi]

curious, what about his other suggestions? tempo paces, mile paces, 400 paces - are those slow for you, too?

if you like to run long runs fast, you should look into pfitzinger plans. he incorporates speed into long runs. most talk of plans on this board are beginner plans, but there are many advanced plans that allow you to run fast.

for example, a pfitzinger long run will have you run 9 miles
"slow" (but again, dont forget that includes your warm up) and then 9 miles at race pace. That way, you get the feeling of race pace at the end of a long run.

my coach had me do something similar when i was training for my half marathon. i would run 10 miles "slow" and then the last chunk (4-7 miles, depending on how long the run was) at 7min/mile.

The thing with these plans is that you dont do it EVERY week. my coach had me do that every other week (and every other week I had 1-minute sprints scattered throughout my long run).

mcmillan is assuming you just want a base pace.

[clseale]

They seem a little slow (but by like 15 sec, not whole minutes.) I was actually looking at Pfitzinger's plans the other day. I was looking for plans that would amp up my total weekly mileage during training, but when I looked at them, I was also really interested in what he was doing with the paces as well. I'll have to research them some more. How did you like it?

Thanks for all of the info! I'm planning on trying to spend the summer working on my pace & figuring out what plan will be best for the fall.

[ebeth]

so I don't think the goal time feature really changes anything.

I just tried it making goal and current the same and I got the same training paces as when goal is faster than current.

[jgleespen]

May 31, 2012 9:53:41 GMT -5 ebeth said:

so I don't think the goal time feature really changes anything.

I just tried it making goal and current the same and I got the same training paces as when goal is faster than current.

I had this same thing happen, I was very confused

[clseale]

May 31, 2012 9:56:12 GMT -5 @jgleespen said:

May 31, 2012 9:53:41 GMT -5 ebeth said:

so I don't think the goal time feature really changes anything.

I just tried it making goal and current the same and I got the same training paces as when goal is faster than current.

I had this same thing happen, I was very confused

It's doing the same thing for me. I worked for me yesterday...I think. Clearly I have no idea how to use this new chart.

[stingsharkruns]

May 30, 2012 15:58:00 GMT -5 clseale said:

May 30, 2012 14:54:27 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

I also struggle with the idea of running long runs 1+ minutes slower than my intended race pace. Thankfully, my running group guy, has my long runs at an 8:30 pace.

I knew you were another one who liked to run her long runs faster. I think I'm going to push the pace through the summer and see where that gets me. If I'm running 8:45-8:50 (and still having conversations) on my long runs during the summer, I can probably push the pace for a February California marathon more than I'm admitting.....but that big of an improvement scares/intimidates me. lol My paces are dropping faster than I thought.

When do you start training? In the next month or two, right? I love that you're already planning your 2nd.

My last two 10 mile runs have been an avg of 7:58 (holyshit) & 8:02 (againholyshit). I'm conversational until the last 1-2 miles where I put the hammer down and get it done. My last 10 miler my last mile was 7:07.. WTF. I thought I was going to die, but it felt SO good.

For intervals my coach as me down for 7:15 - 7:20, tempos 7:35 - 7:40, easy runs 9-9:15, long runs 8:30 -- For the long runs he says to add some tempo miles in there.

I start "ramping up" at the end of August. My "schedule" starts on July 9th, which just has me alternating between 10/12 for long runs. Then Aug 20th is my first 14 miler.. FUGH its going to be hot.

[clseale]

May 31, 2012 10:17:43 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

[My last two 10 mile runs have been an avg of 7:58 (holyshit) & 8:02 (againholyshit). I'm conversational until the last 1-2 miles where I put the hammer down and get it done. My last 10 miler my last mile was 7:07.. WTF. I thought I was going to die, but it felt SO good.

Haha. For our 10 miler 2 weeks ago, our last mile was 7:35 and we both had a similar "WTF did that come from" look on our faces. It seems like your pace dropped fast lately! I can't wait for your race and recap. You're going to have such an awesome first marathon!!

[stingsharkruns]

May 31, 2012 10:26:51 GMT -5 clseale said:

May 31, 2012 10:17:43 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

[My last two 10 mile runs have been an avg of 7:58 (holyshit) & 8:02 (againholyshit). I'm conversational until the last 1-2 miles where I put the hammer down and get it done. My last 10 miler my last mile was 7:07.. WTF. I thought I was going to die, but it felt SO good.

Haha. For our 10 miler 2 weeks ago, our last mile was 7:35 and we both had a similar "WTF did that come from" look on our faces. It seems like your pace dropped fast lately! I can't wait for your race and recap. You're going to have such an awesome first marathon!!

The fact that my race is in November worries me a little.. You know how unpredictable the weather can be in November. Last year it was hot as balls.

Yeah, i'm not sure where these paces are coming from. I've been running with a few people from the group that are just a tadbit faster than me, so I guess i'm just hanging on to them and hoping I don't die...which is how i've gained speed over the last year.

[cinco]

May 30, 2012 22:52:06 GMT -5 clseale said:

They seem a little slow (but by like 15 sec, not whole minutes.) I was actually looking at Pfitzinger's plans the other day. I was looking for plans that would amp up my total weekly mileage during training, but when I looked at them, I was also really interested in what he was doing with the paces as well. I'll have to research them some more. How did you like it?

Thanks for all of the info! I'm planning on trying to spend the summer working on my pace & figuring out what plan will be best for the fall.

I used Pfitz plans for my last two marathons and they worked great for me. I hope I can follow one loosely for my fall marathon, but the mid week medium long runs (usually around 12-14) don't seem doable with my schedule right now.
I followed his paces almost exactly, but I've never had problems running at a slower pace. My legs are lazy

[clseale]

May 31, 2012 12:09:17 GMT -5 cinco said:

May 30, 2012 22:52:06 GMT -5 clseale said:

They seem a little slow (but by like 15 sec, not whole minutes.) I was actually looking at Pfitzinger's plans the other day. I was looking for plans that would amp up my total weekly mileage during training, but when I looked at them, I was also really interested in what he was doing with the paces as well. I'll have to research them some more. How did you like it?

Thanks for all of the info! I'm planning on trying to spend the summer working on my pace & figuring out what plan will be best for the fall.

I used Pfitz plans for my last two marathons and they worked great for me. I hope I can follow one loosely for my fall marathon, but the mid week medium long runs (usually around 12-14) don't seem doable with my schedule right now.
I followed his paces almost exactly, but I've never had problems running at a slower pace. My legs are lazy

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback. I was going to ask if anyone had followed his plans. You & Gumi saved me time. I only have a husband to potentially neglect so hopefully the mid week runs won't be a problem. The longest mid week run I've done is 10...but I'm faster now. lol Maybe it will balance out.

[stingsharkruns]

My longest mid-week run is 6 miles - I'm wondering if this is going to hinder me in anyway. I trust the Coach who made my plan, so i'm going to stick with it.. and i think anything more than 6 during the week would be torture.

[clseale]

May 31, 2012 13:53:21 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

My longest mid-week run is 6 miles - I'm wondering if this is going to hinder me in anyway. I trust the Coach who made my plan, so i'm going to stick with it.. and i think anything more than 6 during the week would be torture.

You're probably also peaking around 40, right? That seems to be the case with a lot of first marathon plans. I'm not going to lie, it was a lot easier this time around to keep my pace consistent and finish strong when the majority of my weeks were in the 40's and I peaked at just over 50. I also did two 18's, one 20 & a 22 miler. This time I plan to have one 60 mile week.

I'm a little surprised he only has a 6 miler in there for you...most plans I've seen always have an 8-10, but from what you've mentioned about your plan, it sounds pretty consistent with a lot of the first time marathon plans out there. He probably based it around what he knows you're running now. You obviously don't want to jump from 25 mpw to 60 mpw. He's probably being conservative with overall mileage since it's your first. You'll do great!

[stingsharkruns]

May 31, 2012 14:16:36 GMT -5 clseale said:

May 31, 2012 13:53:21 GMT -5 stingsharkruns said:

My longest mid-week run is 6 miles - I'm wondering if this is going to hinder me in anyway. I trust the Coach who made my plan, so i'm going to stick with it.. and i think anything more than 6 during the week would be torture.

You're probably also peaking around 40, right? That seems to be the case with a lot of first marathon plans. I'm not going to lie, it was A LOT easier this time around to keep my pace consistent and finish strong when the majority of my weeks were in the 40's and I peaked at just over 50. I also did two 18's, one 20 & a 22 miler. This time I plan to have one 60 mile week.

I'm a little surprised he only has a 6 miler in there for you...most plans I've seen always have an 8-10, but from what you've mentioned about your plan, it sounds pretty consistent with a lot of the first time marathon plans out there. He probably based it around what he knows you're running now. You obviously don't want to jump from 25 mpw to 60 mpw. He's probably being conservative since it's your first. You'll do great.

My peak week is 36. I do two 18's, one 20, and one 22. two week taper.

I'm excited, but incredibly anxious.

[gumi]

May 30, 2012 22:52:06 GMT -5 clseale said:

They seem a little slow (but by like 15 sec, not whole minutes.) I was actually looking at Pfitzinger's plans the other day. I was looking for plans that would amp up my total weekly mileage during training, but when I looked at them, I was also really interested in what he was doing with the paces as well. I'll have to research them some more. How did you like it?

Thanks for all of the info! I'm planning on trying to spend the summer working on my pace & figuring out what plan will be best for the fall.

I love him.
Mind you, I have not run a marathon since '07, but using his plan brought my time down from a 3:38 to a 3:25! My friend uses his plan too - she PR'd last year with a 3:09 (down from a 3:17). Those are pretty big improvements that happened with no other additional changes.

The reason I dont run marathons anymore, other than the twins, is because I find long runs to be boring. I love to run, but after 2 hours, I am ready to begin my day. So for me, he is perfect because when you break the run into different components, it becomes a lot less boring. Also, I felt so incredible during that race. I was ahead of the 3:20 pace group until mile 22....and then I had to poop.