A lot of people said that they would be okay with people tithing if they can afford it. What does that mean to you? Does it just mean that you have limited or no other debts? Should you have a certain amount left over after tithing and other bills? Is there an amount or percentage that should be going to retirement?
Whether you are giving to a church or other charities-- you need to have your own finances in order first before you start helping others. Retirement, bills, savings, mortgage, etc, all need to be covered prior to giving money. Plain and simple.
I'd like to see someone saving for retirement, paying their bills, and having a strong emergency fund (either in place, or saving for it), before tithing. If they want to give up other luxuries to tithe, then that's up to them. Now I realize that's still pretty vague, but going into real detail would require specific situations.
Yes, I believe one shouldn't be tithing 10% unless you have limited CONSUMER debt (I think mortgages, low interest SLs, etc are fine) and save for retirement-- basically, you should be able to care for yourself so you aren't reliant on others, before giving 10%. I dont think you need to have perfect finances to give at ALL-- but 10% to me is ridiculous if you can't even pay your own bills.
Post by Velvetshady on Jan 21, 2013 11:57:45 GMT -5
That would depend on how you interpret the bible when it comes to having debt. Some would say you shouldn't have any debt, for those I'd think you shouldn't be tithing if you have any debt at all (including a mortgage).
We don't "tithe" but I personally believe that when you have the essentials covered and have money in the disposable income category, some should be going to charity of some type. So when you have shelter, food, clothes, expenses needed to provide your income (car/bus fare/etc), then you can afford to "tithe". If you can afford cable, you should be giving some of your money to help others.
Being able to afford tithing is no different from being able to afford anything else that is a non-necessity. Are you putting healthy food on the table for all of your family members? Are you able to pay your monthly rent/mortgage payments in full and on time? Are your healthcare needs met? Are you putting enough money away that you'll be able to retire before you're too old/unfit to work? Do you have enough money to fuel and maintain a car or pay for the public transportation you need to get where you need to go? Do you have enough money to cover these things for a period of time in the event of job loss? Etc. If you're making ends meet on normal life necessities, then congratulations -- you have disposable income that can give to charity, give to your church, go on vacation, buy a fancier than necessary car, live in a bigger home, treat yourself to dinner out, burn $20 bills for fun... whatever makes you happy and can be paid for by your leftover money. If that money amounts to 10% of your income, then you can tithe if that's what will make you happy.
I have always heard that 10-15% of pretax annual income should go to retirement, if you want to maintain your current lifestyle and retire in your late 60s.
Post by EmilieMadison on Jan 21, 2013 12:34:53 GMT -5
If, after tithing, someone has a hard time paying necessary expenses, isn't saving for retirement, has minimal/no savings, and/or is carrying/accumulating consumer debt then I dont think they can afford it.
I also know there are people who absolutely refuse to decrease/temporarily stop tithing, even when they are dependent on food stamps, are receiving subsidized child care, are on government funded health care, etc. They CANNOT afford to tithe.
Forcuatro, you said something in the "do you frown on tithing" post about how you only consider your budget after tithing, and you make your budget work on the remainder. That, to me, is the crucial part - making your budget WORK on the remainder.
Yeah, that is pretty much how we live. I don't think you should live your life in a way that tithing is optional. Is you can't afford something based on income less tithing, you can't afford it. Mortgage/rent, car payments, clothing budget, cable/no cable, retirement, and all other variable expenses are figured out based on this lower amount. I think it is VERY important to save for retirement and emergencies and it is part of the principle to figure out how to do this with less. I would sell my home or my vehicles, lower retirement contributions, start working, etc. before I stopped paying tithes.
Tithing is pretty important in my opinion and it's hard for me to think of too many situations where a person wouldn't be able to afford tithing. There are almost always little things that can be cut out. For me, the ability to buy food and pay all bills (including rent, medical, utilities, etc.) appropriately come before tithing. I do put tithing above retirement.
I'm not flaming you for this belief, but I do hope to get more perspective on it because it makes no sense to me. Giving money to the Church is fine. But what if, in doing so, you (general you) are unable to save enough to live on during retirement? What is the mindset for why this is ok, or something that God would want you to do?
Tithing is pretty important in my opinion and it's hard for me to think of too many situations where a person wouldn't be able to afford tithing. There are almost always little things that can be cut out. For me, the ability to buy food and pay all bills (including rent, medical, utilities, etc.) appropriately come before tithing. I do put tithing above retirement.
Tithing is pretty important in my opinion and it's hard for me to think of too many situations where a person wouldn't be able to afford tithing. There are almost always little things that can be cut out. For me, the ability to buy food and pay all bills (including rent, medical, utilities, etc.) appropriately come before tithing. I do put tithing above retirement.
Can you explain the bolded to me?
I am absolutely flabbergasted.
I am as well..I know people that stop giving to retirement and whatnot to give to the church--but seriously, what are you planning on doing then in your retirement years, hope the church helps you? continue to work until death? hope family helps you?
Post by EmilieMadison on Jan 21, 2013 13:12:30 GMT -5
I guess I have to ask jjw- Were your parents using any gov't assistance while tithing? Did they save for retirement? What do people who live in the "here and now" and just trust that God will provide in the future expect will actually happen in the future when they're no longer able to work but never planned for that?
Post by bluelikejazz on Jan 21, 2013 13:43:58 GMT -5
I find some of these responses interesting. When I posted my budget earlier, I was told I couldn't afford to tithe. However, base on the comments here, I can.
I am saving 17% for retirement (I am on track to have 1 year income by the time I'm 28) I have at 16-20 month E-Fund I am still able to save some money at the end of each month
I can do all of these things while giving 10% to the Church.
I guess I have to ask jjw- Were your parents using any gov't assistance while tithing? Did they save for retirement? What do people who live in the "here and now" and just trust that God will provide in the future expect will actually happen in the future when they're no longer able to work but never planned for that?
I don't know jjw's friends, family, or specific set of beliefs but I can answer this based on my own experience. My church believes and supports tithes. This 10% (gross or net is up to the individual) needs to be paid first and foremost but it is part of a whole belief in economic self-reliance. We are instructed to live within our means and if we are having trouble affording tithing and other bills there are people that can help create a budget if you want them to. Tithing is a commandment and takes priority but saving for the future and emergencies and staying out of debt are also commandments that coincides. We don't really sit around and talk about everyone's income and budget so I don't know how all the other bank accounts look in the chapel on Sunday. I do have a few friends that I have talked in depth with about this and they have all figured out a way to make it work. I have friends (all with at least 2 children) making $45k/year up to $140k/year and all of them are paying tithes and saving for retirement. Some live more simply than others but none are on public assistance of any kind. If something happens and you lose your income you will not be able to pay your bills or save for retirement. However, if you have no income you will also not pay tithes. My church has a welfare program that is designed to help members of the church that are in financial need. If we fell on really hard times I would not pay tithes (no income) and I would be able to go to the same church to whom I had formerly paid tithes and receive food or financial assitance. Though it is hopeful that I wouldn't need to ask for assistance because I had been following the commandment to save and well as tithe. Just our personal situation- When we were new parents, still in college, and making little money we always tithed, saved at least something for retirement (only 9% when we were in our early to mid- twenties), and put maybe $1k into savings each year. We drove old, inexpensive cars, did not have cable, shopped at second hand stores when possible, didn't eat out, bought all of our furniture on craigslist, and so on. We were fulfilling our obligations and we were happy. We had little to no money left over each month but we never needed for anything, stayed debt free and never received assistance. We believe that because we were obeying the commandments that we believe in we were blessed.
Post by shopgirl07 on Jan 21, 2013 13:46:24 GMT -5
It truly doesn't matter to me how people spend their money. If someone wants to tithe even if they're up to their eyeballs in debt and can only eat ramen noodles, more power. It's not something I would do but that doesn't matter.
The only exception I see is someone continuing to tithe while they are accepting public assistance. That I would not be too keen on at all.
Whether you are giving to a church or other charities-- you need to have your own finances in order first before you start helping others. Retirement, bills, savings, mortgage, etc, all need to be covered prior to giving money. Plain and simple.
This. You should be saving at least 10% towards retirement, ideally maxing out a 401k or IRA. You should not have "stupid" debt like credit cards, payday loans, personal loans. Your student loans should not be in deferrment, you should not be behind on your mortgage or car loan (if you have them). If you have kids, you should have a responsible amount of life insurance and a trust. You should have at least 8 months of emergency funds in cashola.
Post by EmilieMadison on Jan 21, 2013 13:47:46 GMT -5
Wow, jjw, that is quite a feat. I'm also one of five kids and our only income was my dad's teaching salary, which was about $40K when we were growing up. We lived in a MCOL area, never went out to eat, they drove old cars (one of which was a hand me down from my grandparents), never took trips where we didnt drive and stay with family, and lived very, very simply, and we never had any extras. My parents also saved for retirement, but I know they had a very hard time saving much more than 10%.
I'm very impressed that, after tithing and savings, your family of 7 was able to live on less than $1000/month.
It truly doesn't matter to me how people spend their money. If someone wants to tithe even if they're up to their eyeballs in debt and can only eat ramen noodles, more power. It's not something I would do but that doesn't matter.
The only exception I see is someone continuing to tithe while they are accepting public assistance. That I would not be too keen on at all.
Agree on the last statement, 100%.
If asked, my opinion is you shouldn't tithe or give to charity until you have your $hit in order!
I find some of these responses interesting. When I posted my budget earlier, I was told I couldn't afford to tithe. However, base on the comments here, I can.
I am saving 17% for retirement (I am on track to have 1 year income by the time I'm 28) I have at 16-20 month E-Fund I am still able to save some money at the end of each month
I can do all of these things while giving 10% to the Church.
So which is it? Can I or can't I afford to tithe?
Because its "I" "I" "I"-- not "we" or "us"-- my problem with your budget is that your H is unemployed and has been for a while.
I find some of these responses interesting. When I posted my budget earlier, I was told I couldn't afford to tithe. However, base on the comments here, I can.
I am saving 17% for retirement (I am on track to have 1 year income by the time I'm 28) I have at 16-20 month E-Fund I am still able to save some money at the end of each month
I can do all of these things while giving 10% to the Church.
I find some of these responses interesting. When I posted my budget earlier, I was told I couldn't afford to tithe. However, base on the comments here, I can.
I am saving 17% for retirement (I am on track to have 1 year income by the time I'm 28) I have at 16-20 month E-Fund I am still able to save some money at the end of each month
I can do all of these things while giving 10% to the Church.
So which is it? Can I or can't I afford to tithe?
Because its "I" "I" "I"-- not "we" or "us"-- my problem with your budget is that your H is unemployed and has been for a while.
So your problem is with my H, not my budget? If our budget was similar but one of us was a stay at home parent, (assuming there was an appropriate line item for child-related stuff) would you have the same issues?
I find some of these responses interesting. When I posted my budget earlier, I was told I couldn't afford to tithe. However, base on the comments here, I can.
I am saving 17% for retirement (I am on track to have 1 year income by the time I'm 28) I have at 16-20 month E-Fund I am still able to save some money at the end of each month
I can do all of these things while giving 10% to the Church.
Because its "I" "I" "I"-- not "we" or "us"-- my problem with your budget is that your H is unemployed and has been for a while.
So your problem is with my H, not my budget? If our budget was similar but one of us was a stay at home parent, (assuming there was an appropriate line item for child-related stuff) would you have the same issues?
Yes. In fact, I'd be even more adamant about it because kids throw another wrench and are expensive.
I asked this in the other thread-- where does the Bible say tithing is a commandment?
There are quite a few Bible verses that I believe reference tithing, among them are Deuteronomy 14:22, Malachi 3:8, and Leviticus 27:32. There are more but this is all I can come up with on short notice. I am LDS/Mormon so I have the Book of Mormon and modern day Prophets that I believe give this same instruction. Since the Bible is open to interpretation I am sure there are other religions that view these verses differently than I do.
I asked this in the other thread-- where does the Bible say tithing is a commandment?
There are quite a few Bible verses that I believe reference tithing, among them are Deuteronomy 14:22, Malachi 3:8, and Leviticus 27:32. There are more but this is all I can come up with on short notice. I am LDS/Mormon so I have the Book of Mormon and modern day Prophets that I believe give this same instruction. Since the Bible is open to interpretation I am sure there are other religions that view these verses differently than I do.
But you said it was a commandment. Wouldn't a commandment be clear? The 10 commandments are pretty specific.
There are quite a few Bible verses that I believe reference tithing, among them are Deuteronomy 14:22, Malachi 3:8, and Leviticus 27:32. There are more but this is all I can come up with on short notice. I am LDS/Mormon so I have the Book of Mormon and modern day Prophets that I believe give this same instruction. Since the Bible is open to interpretation I am sure there are other religions that view these verses differently than I do.
But you said it was a commandment. Wouldn't a commandment be clear? The 10 commandments are pretty specific.
I believe that is clear. If you don't want to see the commandment in those verses then you won't, it is all in the interpretation. And, like I said, I am a member of a religion that believes in modern-day, living Prophets. I have additional sources on which I place my faith. mormon.org/faq/#faq/topic/tithing
This may deserve a new thread, but how much should a single-income family be saving for retirement? We are intentionally a single-income family and don't have any plans to change that at least until our kids are grown. We are saving 15% of DH's gross for retirement, divided between his TSP and 2 Roths. Should we be saving more? I'm confused by the criticism of bluelikejazz's retirement savings.
Post by whitepicketfence on Jan 21, 2013 14:24:33 GMT -5
Tithing is pretty important to us. We tithe 5% to our church and another 5% to causes we believe in. We have consumer debt that we are working to pay off and don't save as much as we used to when we were a 2 income family, but we can afford to meet all of our necessities each month and have (some) discretionary income left over. We also save for retirement and for our children to attend college. We could scale back our spending in several areas if we needed to but, right now, we're comfortable with our budget.