S/O Tithing- When can you afford it?

[littlemisssunshine]

Jan 21, 2013 13:47:14 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I asked this in the other thread-- where does the Bible say tithing is a commandment?

Malachi 3:10: Bring the full tithe in the storehouse, that there may by food in my house. And thereby put me to the test says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. 

2 Corinthians 9:7: Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 

Proverbs 3:9: Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce. 


These are just several examples, there are many more verses that talk about tithe and giving to God. I have always tithed, even when I was little and it was out of my allowance. It's a way to honor God, and do what he asks. Several years ago I was just married and we made very little money. We had an efund, no debt, partially funded retirement, and had little to save at the end of the month, but always tithed 10%. We cut out fun stuff and eating out to be able to tithe, but it wasn't even a question for us. Now that we have increased our income, we have a much larger e fund, still no debt, and fully funded retirements and tithe at least 10%, sometimes more. It's not a 10 Commandment, but God was very clear that we are to give back to him, so I'm not going to debate it.  We see tithe as an essential part of our budget and make it work for us. 

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 14:17:29 GMT -5 jjwritergirl said:

Jan 21, 2013 14:13:31 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

But you said it was a commandment. Wouldn't a commandment be clear? The 10 commandments are pretty specific.

Even Biblical scholars argue whether or not tithing is a command. Some scholars say it is a command because it was required in the old testament and never refuted/done away with in the New Testament. Other scholars say it is a general principal and the idea of tithing is more important than exact rule of 10%. Only the principal of giving and sacrifice is specifically addressed in the New Testament.

I think both sides have authority and validity. Each person has to individually decide what they believe. I don't think it's a clear enough issue to judge someone who believes the other way. It's not a big-10 like murder, but many people believe it is an equally important sign of worship. 

Where is it required in the Old Testament? I am Jewish and tithing (the way it is referred to on here) is not a Jewish practice. We practice great importance on Tzedakah (charity), but giving 10% of our income to the temple is not a concept we practice. (at least modern Reform Jews, I dont know what Orthodox do).

[trufflefries]

Jan 21, 2013 13:47:14 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I asked this in the other thread-- where does the Bible say tithing is a commandment?

Malachi 3:10-12 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.  I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty.  “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.

LOL, someone else posted this right before me. Oh well.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 14:25:14 GMT -5 littlemisssunshine said:

Jan 21, 2013 13:47:14 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I asked this in the other thread-- where does the Bible say tithing is a commandment?

Malachi 3:10: Bring the full tithe in the storehouse, that there may by food in my house. And thereby put me to the test says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. 

2 Corinthians 9:7: Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 

Proverbs 3:9: Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce. 


These are just several examples, there are many more verses that talk about tithe and giving to God. I have always tithed, even when I was little and it was out of my allowance. It's a way to honor God, and do what he asks. Several years ago I was just married and we made very little money. We had an efund, no debt, partially funded retirement, and had little to save at the end of the month, but always tithed 10%. We cut out fun stuff and eating out to be able to tithe, but it wasn't even a question for us. Now that we have increased our income, we have a much larger e fund, still no debt, and fully funded retirements and tithe at least 10%, sometimes more. It's not a 10 Commandment, but God was very clear that we are to give back to him, so I'm not going to debate it.  We see tithe as an essential part of our budget and make it work for us. 

There is no mention of 10% of your income, and giving to the detriment of everything else. and the Corinthians verse is even more telling that it should be OPTIONAL.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 14:20:00 GMT -5 linus said:

This may deserve a new thread, but how much should a single-income family be saving for retirement? We are intentionally a single-income family and don't have any plans to change that at least until our kids are grown. We are saving 15% of DH's gross for retirement, divided between his TSP and 2 Roths. Should we be saving more? I'm confused by the criticism of bluelikejazz's retirement savings.

Ideally, you should be saving at least 15% of your gross household income.  If your household income comes from one spouse then save 15% of that.  I am a SAHM so on paper all of our income is DH's.  The whole family lives on it and we save some of it for retirement. 
I don't get the criticism either.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 14:20:00 GMT -5 linus said:

This may deserve a new thread, but how much should a single-income family be saving for retirement? We are intentionally a single-income family and don't have any plans to change that at least until our kids are grown. We are saving 15% of DH's gross for retirement, divided between his TSP and 2 Roths. Should we be saving more? I'm confused by the criticism of bluelikejazz's retirement savings.

It really depends on what that one income is.  If your H is earning a lot, then 15% may be perfectly fine. If not, then you'll fall short in retirement. I made my comments specific to bluelikejazz's income and budget. 

People can feel free to disagree with me.

[littlemisssunshine]

I didn't know where the 10% came from, just that's what I was taught my whole life. A quick google search tells me that in Genesis the Hebrew word for tithe is translated as a tenth. But yes, I believe the amount of tithe you give is flexible, but I do think all Christians should tithe something. The Bible teaches you should give of your income, and do so willingly and cheerfully.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 14:35:00 GMT -5 jjwritergirl said:

Jan 21, 2013 14:25:26 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Where is it required in the Old Testament? I am Jewish and tithing (the way it is referred to on here) is not a Jewish practice. We practice great importance on Tzedakah (charity), but giving 10% of our income to the temple is not a concept we practice.

I may be mistaken, but I think that Judaism and Protestants have a different idea of "commands." I believe that all right/wrong teachings are commands. Therefore, if a verse says that tithing is a good idea, I interpret that as a command. I don't know very many Jewish people, but the two I worked with did believe in tithing 10%. I don't know if it was a personal conviction or a doctrine they were taught. 

There are quite a few verses that specifically say to tithe. One is "Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.”

That commands not only to tithe, but also promises that God will bless the tithes. (Keep in mind, the word "Tithe" means 10% by definition. Gifts or offerings is the word used when the percentage is not part of the equation).

I know lots of Jewish people and no one gives 10% specifically.  There certainly is no hard and fast rule in Reform temples (as I modified in my post). Also most modern Reform Jews dont follow the Bible as literal word. I was taught in Hebrew School that the Bible was a book of stories to teach morals, not as literal truth.  But again, certain groups of Orthodox Jews may believe differently. 

I didn't realize tithe itself meant 10%, thanks for clearing that up.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 15:01:53 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Jan 21, 2013 14:35:00 GMT -5 jjwritergirl said:

I may be mistaken, but I think that Judaism and Protestants have a different idea of "commands." I believe that all right/wrong teachings are commands. Therefore, if a verse says that tithing is a good idea, I interpret that as a command. I don't know very many Jewish people, but the two I worked with did believe in tithing 10%. I don't know if it was a personal conviction or a doctrine they were taught. 

There are quite a few verses that specifically say to tithe. One is "Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.”

That commands not only to tithe, but also promises that God will bless the tithes. (Keep in mind, the word "Tithe" means 10% by definition. Gifts or offerings is the word used when the percentage is not part of the equation).

Also most modern Reform Jews dont follow the Bible as literal word. I was taught in Hebrew School that the Bible was a book of stories to teach morals, not as literal truth.  

See, if my Protestant church would have taught this, I might not be agnostic.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 15:16:55 GMT -5 papiercherri said:

Jan 21, 2013 15:01:53 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Also most modern Reform Jews dont follow the Bible as literal word. I was taught in Hebrew School that the Bible was a book of stories to teach morals, not as literal truth.  

See, if my Protestant church would have taught this, I might not be agnostic.

oh I'm Agnostic, but I still call myself a Jew.

But there was some study done a few years back where nearly 50% of people who call themselves Jews were either Atheist or Agnostic.

[linus]

Jan 21, 2013 15:20:16 GMT -5 @vicmo said:

Jan 21, 2013 14:20:00 GMT -5 linus said:

This may deserve a new thread, but how much should a single-income family be saving for retirement? We are intentionally a single-income family and don't have any plans to change that at least until our kids are grown. We are saving 15% of DH's gross for retirement, divided between his TSP and 2 Roths. Should we be saving more? I'm confused by the criticism of bluelikejazz's retirement savings.

I think this is a question that would need to be answered by looking at very specific situations.  If a couple made 100K (50K each), and saved 15%, they'd be saving 15K/year.  If one of them was temporarily out of work for a year, and the family made a total of 50K, and saved 15%, then they would only save $7.5k for that year.  So for that year, they are behind their own "normal".
On the other hand, if a couple only ever makes 50K/year, and saves 15% per year, their normal would be 7.5K.  So in any particular year, they are meeting their own target if they save $7.5K.

Suppose the family wants to be able to replace 80% of their "normal" income in retirement.  For the couple making 100K/year, that would be 80K, whereas the couple making 50K would only need to replace 40K.  A retirement calculator can also be helpful here - if it would be necessary to save $15K/year in order to replace 80K in retirement, then having some years of saving $7.5K could potentially hurt the chance of making that goal.

I think that a couple that chooses to be a single-income family and can afford to live that way will probably be used to living on less, so living on less in retirement would be ok.  On the other hand, a couple that is a single-income family for only a few years may end up behind on retirement savings in the end if they are only saving 15% of the single income, compared with a family that is saving 15% of two incomes.

Ok, this is exactly how I had been thinking about it. Thanks for the clarification!

[smiley]

I am surprised with how many people confuse a tithe and an offering.

tithe - to pay or give a tenth part of especially for the support of the church
offering - a contribution to the support of a church

I believe that you should only tithe if you can fund your retirement, pay all of your bills, set money asides for day to day savings.

I believe anyone can give an offering. This offering could be volunteer time if you do not have any extra to give. You could give a few dollars a week if your budget allows. You are offering something to the church you attend to help them pay the bills, provide ministries etc.

[hocus]

Jan 21, 2013 12:27:18 GMT -5 jjwritergirl said:

Tithing is pretty important in my opinion and it's hard for me to think of too many situations where a person wouldn't be able to afford tithing. There are almost always little things that can be cut out. For me, the ability to buy food and pay all bills (including rent, medical, utilities, etc.) appropriately come before tithing. *I do put tithing above retirement. *

  Why do you put retierment below tithing?

 At any rate of course there are people who cannot afford to tith and certainly there are plenty of folks that can't do 10% of their gross income. Even if you wanted to limit this to ONLY folks who've had bad luck and not made mistakes then I'm still sure you could find folks who can't spare anything. I think there was a nestie who was divorcing with 2 kids. She's a prime example of someone who could not spare even 1% of her income. I'm pretty sure she was living paycheck to paycheck all the time and there was no fat in her budget.

[cjeanette]

Jan 21, 2013 14:35:00 GMT -5 jjwritergirl said:

Jan 21, 2013 14:25:26 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Where is it required in the Old Testament? I am Jewish and tithing (the way it is referred to on here) is not a Jewish practice. We practice great importance on Tzedakah (charity), but giving 10% of our income to the temple is not a concept we practice.

I may be mistaken, but I think that Judaism and Protestants have a different idea of "commands." I believe that all right/wrong teachings are commands. Therefore, if a verse says that tithing is a good idea, I interpret that as a command. I don't know very many Jewish people, but the two I worked with did believe in tithing 10%. I don't know if it was a personal conviction or a doctrine they were taught. 

There are quite a few verses that specifically say to tithe. One is "Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.”

That commands not only to tithe, but also promises that God will bless the tithes. (Keep in mind, the word "Tithe" means 10% by definition. Gifts or offerings is the word used when the percentage is not part of the equation).

I don't consider it a commandment.  I only consider the 10 commandments to be commandments. I would call it a teaching or something the Lord has asked of us.

[doobeedoo]

Jan 21, 2013 15:50:21 GMT -5 smiley said:

I am surprised with how many people confuse a tithe and an offering.

tithe - to pay or give a tenth part of especially for the support of the church
offering - a contribution to the support of a church

I believe that you should only tithe if you can fund your retirement, pay all of your bills, set money asides for day to day savings.

I believe anyone can give an offering. This offering could be volunteer time if you do not have any extra to give. You could give a few dollars a week if your budget allows. You are offering something to the church you attend to help them pay the bills, provide ministries etc.

Thanks for that clarification, it helped me figure out how to express my thoughts, which are flammable, I am sure. 

I am a big fan of OFFERINGS but the whole concept of tithing rubs me the wrong way.  It just feels wrong to "require" a specific percentage from people and wrong-er still to require it when the people are obviously struggling financially.   And bear in mind, I am all for supporting a church, if that is what you want to do.  Churches need to be supported.  But not at the expense of our personal/financial well-being. 

[barefootcontessa]

Like everything in life, it is about priorities. We tithe five figures annually and have based our budget around our tithe. The concept of the tithe has its roots in the OT and it is about giving God the first fruits of your labor. See Abraham and Isaac. The reason why budget posters say tithing is non negotiable is because they are trying to honor the first fruits principle.

[Velvetshady]

Question for those that say they believe tithing is a commandment or command and isn't optional, but you still have debt: How do you pick which "command" is more important than the other?



Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love on another



Proverbs 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.



Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.



Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.





How did you make the choice that the quotes on tithing posted earlier are more "important" than these? (And yes, a mortgage is debt--I don't read these quotes to say debt is bad unless it's at an awesome interest rate.) I understand why a church would tell you tithing is more important, but how did/do you pick which is "more" of a commandment/command?

[Deleted]

I don't tithe.

But I actually agree with the concept of putting giving before anything else, and adjusting your budget around it.

We don't give nearly enough money away. We're not in a financial place to do so. Why aren't we? Because we chose to buy cars, furniture, weekend trips, clothing, eating out, etc that we didn't "need". Sure, we need cars, we could have gone cheaper. We didn't prioritize giving and that's why we can't give. It would have been "better" of us to budget all that stuff around being generous. We certainly make enough money that we could live a perfectly decent life while giving away 10% of our income.

ETA: We do give, just not enough.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 18:22:06 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Question for those that say they believe tithing is a commandment or command and isn't optional, but you still have debt: How do you pick which "command" is more important than the other?



Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love on another



Proverbs 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.



Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.



Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.





How did you make the choice that the quotes on tithing posted earlier are more "important" than these? (And yes, a mortgage is debt--I don't read these quotes to say debt is bad unless it's at an awesome interest rate.) I understand why a church would tell you tithing is more important, but how did/do you pick which is "more" of a commandment/command?

As I mentioned earlier, in my religion we believe in continued instruction and revelation from Prophets and Apostles. This ([a href="www.lds.org/liahona/2004/05/earthly-debts-heavenly-debts?lang=eng"]www.lds.org/liahona/2004/05/earthly-debts-heavenly-debts?lang=eng[/a]) is a lengty article that addresses my view on debt, tithing, savings, etc.  And this quote (from that talk) addresses how I try to govern my finances:

"Remember this: debt is a form of bondage. It is a financial termite. When we make purchases on credit, they give us only an illusion of prosperity. We think we own things, but the reality is, our things own us.

Some debt—such as for a modest home, expenses for education, perhaps for a needed first car—may be necessary. But never should we enter into financial bondage through consumer debt without carefully weighing the costs."

I hate having a mortgage and student loans, but I feel they are necessary and are far less than they could be if I wanted to live frivolously.  I am working to pay down my debts while still paying my full tithe.  I interpret these verses to be in reference to something non-essential. 

[Velvetshady]

Jan 21, 2013 18:37:36 GMT -5 @forcuatro said:

Jan 21, 2013 18:22:06 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Question for those that say they believe tithing is a commandment or command and isn't optional, but you still have debt: How do you pick which "command" is more important than the other?



Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love on another



Proverbs 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.



Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.



Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.





How did you make the choice that the quotes on tithing posted earlier are more "important" than these? (And yes, a mortgage is debt--I don't read these quotes to say debt is bad unless it's at an awesome interest rate.) I understand why a church would tell you tithing is more important, but how did/do you pick which is "more" of a commandment/command?

As I mentioned earlier, in my religion we believe in continued instruction and revelation from Prophets and Apostles. This (www.lds.org/liahona/2004/05/earthly-debts-heavenly-debts?lang=eng) is a lengty article that addresses my view on debt, tithing, savings, etc.  And this quote (from that talk) addresses how I try to govern my finances:

"Remember this: debt is a form of bondage. It is a financial termite. When we make purchases on credit, they give us only an illusion of prosperity. We think we own things, but the reality is, our things own us.

Some debt—such as for a modest home, expenses for education, perhaps for a needed first car—may be necessary. But never should we enter into financial bondage through consumer debt without carefully weighing the costs."

I hate having a mortgage and student loans, but I feel they are necessary and are far less than they could be if I wanted to live frivolously.  I am working to pay down my debts while still paying my full tithe.  I interpret these verses to be in reference to something non-essential. 

I guess I can't get on board with mortgage, SLs and a car loan as being "necessary". You can rent, you can save up for school, you can save up for a car and pay cash. Nobody *has* to have any of those things. So if the commands on debt can be turned into some debt isn't necessarily bad if you decide some is necessary, do they also teach that the 10% can be less if it doesn't work for you? At what point does it become okay to not tithe? Or to "tithe" less than 10%?

[catmt]

Jan 21, 2013 14:25:26 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Jan 21, 2013 14:17:29 GMT -5 jjwritergirl said:

Even Biblical scholars argue whether or not tithing is a command. Some scholars say it is a command because it was required in the old testament and never refuted/done away with in the New Testament. Other scholars say it is a general principal and the idea of tithing is more important than exact rule of 10%. Only the principal of giving and sacrifice is specifically addressed in the New Testament.

I think both sides have authority and validity. Each person has to individually decide what they believe. I don't think it's a clear enough issue to judge someone who believes the other way. It's not a big-10 like murder, but many people believe it is an equally important sign of worship. 

Where is it required in the Old Testament? I am Jewish and tithing (the way it is referred to on here) is not a Jewish practice. We practice great importance on Tzedakah (charity), but giving 10% of our income to the temple is not a concept we practice. (at least modern Reform Jews, I dont know what Orthodox do).

I replied to this in the other thread.  Here are some more verses.  Tithing (giving 10%) is specifically mentioned 20-25 times in the old testament.

Only in the Old Testament. Below is the first mention.  That also includes redeeming your tithe or not specifically giving the first fruits.

³⁰ “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. ³¹ Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. ³² Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.  Leviticus 27:30-32 (NIV)

There are numerous similar passages throughout the Old Testament.  

Many people like to support tithing by the following passage in Malachi - especially prosperity churches where the assumption is everything you give God will be given back with interest.

⁸ “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.

“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’

“In tithes and offerings. ⁹ You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me.¹⁰ Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.  Malachi 3:8-10  (NIV)

Nothing in the New Testament specifically refers to tithing however giving to the church is mentioned on multiple occasions.  Paul writes,

1 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. ² On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.  1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (NIV)

and later

⁷ Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)

Sorry.  I know it got kind of long.

Read more: pandce.proboards.com/thread/124876/frown-tithing?page=3#ixzz2IfGEPNdU

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 14:26:46 GMT -5 nursecramer said:

The priest from our old parish always said that you should an amount equal to what you spend in entertainment. Add up what you pay for cable, on movies, going out, magazines, etc. and that's what you ought to donate.

That's a really great way of looking at it.  I know that we don't give nearly as much as I'd like.  Maybe I'll track our entertainment spending for 2013 to use as a talking point about charitable giving with H in 2014.  Thanks for mentioning this!

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 18:58:08 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Jan 21, 2013 18:37:36 GMT -5 @forcuatro said:

As I mentioned earlier, in my religion we believe in continued instruction and revelation from Prophets and Apostles. This (www.lds.org/liahona/2004/05/earthly-debts-heavenly-debts?lang=eng) is a lengty article that addresses my view on debt, tithing, savings, etc.  And this quote (from that talk) addresses how I try to govern my finances:

"Remember this: debt is a form of bondage. It is a financial termite. When we make purchases on credit, they give us only an illusion of prosperity. We think we own things, but the reality is, our things own us.

Some debt—such as for a modest home, expenses for education, perhaps for a needed first car—may be necessary. But never should we enter into financial bondage through consumer debt without carefully weighing the costs."

I hate having a mortgage and student loans, but I feel they are necessary and are far less than they could be if I wanted to live frivolously.  I am working to pay down my debts while still paying my full tithe.  I interpret these verses to be in reference to something non-essential. 

I guess I can't get on board with mortgage, SLs and a car loan as being "necessary". You can rent, you can save up for school, you can save up for a car and pay cash. Nobody *has* to have any of those things. So if the commands on debt can be turned into some debt isn't necessarily bad if you decide some is necessary, do they also teach that the 10% can be less if it doesn't work for you? At what point does it become okay to not tithe? Or to "tithe" less than 10%?

I interpret the earlier verses to mean frivolous debt and I interpret frivolous debt to be debt outside of a reasonable home mortgage, reasonable car loan, reasonable SL debt, and such things as medical debt that is unavoidable. I think choosing to take on these types of debt is only acceptable after a full tithe is paid (with the acception of something like medical debt) and is between the debtor and God. Tithe literally means 10% so if you are going to tithe you are going to give 10%. Offerings can be different and people can do with those according to their faith. At what point is it okay not to tithe? For me, when you have no income. Will it ever be okay for me to give less than 10%? No. Would it be okay for someone else to give less? That is between them and God. 

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2013 23:08:34 GMT -5 @veggielove1022 said:

Jan 21, 2013 15:22:08 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

oh I'm Agnostic, but I still call myself a Jew.

But there was some study done a few years back where nearly 50% of people who call themselves Jews were either Atheist or Agnostic.

Out of pure curiosity, why don't you just call yourself Agnostic? 

Because I am Jewish.  I don't think this is a contradiction.  I just don't think there is any way one can prove or disprove G-d, but Judaism is part of my identity, I still celebrate the major holidays,  I still sometimes go to temple, we are raising my daughter Jewish- will go to Hebrew school and she will have a bat mitzvah. 

[Velvetshady]

Jan 21, 2013 23:50:14 GMT -5 @forcuatro said:

Jan 21, 2013 18:58:08 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

I guess I can't get on board with mortgage, SLs and a car loan as being "necessary". You can rent, you can save up for school, you can save up for a car and pay cash. Nobody *has* to have any of those things. So if the commands on debt can be turned into some debt isn't necessarily bad if you decide some is necessary, do they also teach that the 10% can be less if it doesn't work for you? At what point does it become okay to not tithe? Or to "tithe" less than 10%?

I interpret the earlier verses to mean frivolous debt and I interpret frivolous debt to be debt outside of a reasonable home mortgage, reasonable car loan, reasonable SL debt, and such things as medical debt that is unavoidable. I think choosing to take on these types of debt is only acceptable after a full tithe is paid (with the acception of something like medical debt) and is between the debtor and God. Tithe literally means 10% so if you are going to tithe you are going to give 10%. Offerings can be different and people can do with those according to their faith. At what point is it okay not to tithe? For me, when you have no income. Will it ever be okay for me to give less than 10%? No. Would it be okay for someone else to give less? That is between them and God. 

I know tithe literally means "one tenth" that's why I had it in quotes when I asked about less than 10%. I guess someone could interpret it to be 10% of their non-essential budget, or take-home vs gross, etc.

I just can't get past picking and choosing which verses have to be followed 100% and which you can add your own interpretation to if you want. I personally don't believe the bible is to meant to be taken literally (how can it be, the form we have it in was "written" by a bunch of men in a committee with political motives) and I'm not comfortable with people randomly interpreting parts of it as they please to fit their viewpoint ('cause, well Westboro).

Thanks for responding:) How people pick verses to raise above others, beyond the 10 Commandments, intrigues me--it's not something I'm comfortable with and is one of the many reasons I don't call myself a Christian anymore even though I was raised as such (and I was pretty involved as a kid/teen).

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2013 10:43:59 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Jan 21, 2013 23:50:14 GMT -5 @forcuatro said:

I interpret the earlier verses to mean frivolous debt and I interpret frivolous debt to be debt outside of a reasonable home mortgage, reasonable car loan, reasonable SL debt, and such things as medical debt that is unavoidable. I think choosing to take on these types of debt is only acceptable after a full tithe is paid (with the acception of something like medical debt) and is between the debtor and God. Tithe literally means 10% so if you are going to tithe you are going to give 10%. Offerings can be different and people can do with those according to their faith. At what point is it okay not to tithe? For me, when you have no income. Will it ever be okay for me to give less than 10%? No. Would it be okay for someone else to give less? That is between them and God. 

I just can't get past picking and choosing which verses have to be followed 100% and which you can add your own interpretation to if you want.

This has also been very interesting to me. We're supposed to tithe and all that jazz, but if you really want to follow the commandments of the bible, you should be out stoning non-virgins and murdering kids who talk back to their parents.