Wait, did I miss where we instituted a rule that if you say one thing, and then a similar thing, you have to say it the exact same way or you are implying what you said the first time by default?
English, eclaires, do you speak it! lol
Now I'm really confused.
If you're talking to me, no, you don't have to say it the same way twice. But you cannot announce, noooo, I didn't say the sky is blue, I said it was navy but really, I've gone a lot of research that suggest the sky is blue but no, I didn't say the sky was blue, I'm just saying it's blue, because of research and this story I'm about to tell about seeing one patch of blue sky out of my window and ergo every patch of sky everywhere that is seen out of one's window must be blue except when it's navy.
And the reason I have a problem with your posts is again, you keep repeating false information and then when called on it, you basically said I didn't say false information, I said . . . and then you proceed to repeat that information but using different words and with a personal anecdote as to why isn't false.
Also, random emails isn't research. YWIA.
I'm really confused by your experiences with churches, tbh. You do not read as a person who has some kind of faith, looking for a church home that matches up with your beliefs. Your stories read as someone who is looking for an objectively right answer using secular framework. So what exactly is it you are looking for when church shopping? What's your ultimate goal because I don't get the sense you're trying to find a body of like minded believers with whom you'd like to fellowship which is generally the goal.
And I asked you to call out anything I said that was blatantly wrong. I always try to qualify my posts with "many" "some" "in my experience" "my church". So if something sounds jacked up, but I stated that this is what my church taught, then that is not stating wrong info. If I make a blanket statement that is wrong, feel free to call me out on it and rectify what I said. I will not get the least bit offended.
These weren't random emails. I didn't want to spend two years visiting churches before I found a church home. I'm sure my feelings on church are all over the place. My dad was a cradle Catholic who left the church. Mom was Lutheran. I was baptized Lutheran. Raised mostly in a Baptist church. All was good. ........As a teenager we moved to Florida and my mom somehow fell into this nutty fundie church. It was a huge church with close to 2000 members but they were basically a church full of Duggars meets Westboro Baptist. That is where I was beat over the head with their hateful ant-gay, misogynistic doctrine. I left the fundie church in my mid 20s, found a nice Baptist church I went to for a few years. Then we moved to the city and I basically spent years as an agnostic who hated all things church and Christian. A good 12 years to be exact. A couple of years ago I started missing church and wanted to find something that fit me personally. Since churches don't exactly waive their anti-gay, anti-woman feelings on their websites, I sent out emails asking them straight out to tell me their beliefs so I didn't have to waste my time going. I spent many years in the fire and brimstone, gays are going to hell, the working woman has destroyed the family unit, types of churches. I didn't want to deal with that again. After I received the emails back from the Lutheran and Episcopal church, I went and did more research on them. Did I delve knee deep into their history? No. I just wanted to know a little more about them. When I began my search, I thought I'd end up in one of the newer churches with the rock bands and light show and here I ended up in a beautiful 150 year old building. I just thought it was funny. That's all.
All I wanted out of a church was some place I can go and worship in peace. I don't care who anyone votes for in an election or any of that crap. I wanted someplace to praise and worship only. I found that and life is good.
Wait, did I miss where we instituted a rule that if you say one thing, and then a similar thing, you have to say it the exact same way or you are implying what you said the first time by default?
English, eclaires, do you speak it! lol
Now I'm really confused.
If you're talking to me, no, you don't have to say it the same way twice. But you cannot announce, noooo, I didn't say the sky is blue, I said it was navy but really, I've gone a lot of research that suggest the sky is blue but no, I didn't say the sky was blue, I'm just saying it's blue, because of research and this story I'm about to tell about seeing one patch of blue sky out of my window and ergo every patch of sky everywhere that is seen out of one's window must be blue except when it's navy.
I was referring to
"you said Episcopalians are wrong if they say they aren't protestant, but when you said some baptists don't think they are, you didn't add the they are wrong part, so I thought you were saying they were right." or whatever that mess is.
And the reason I have a problem with your posts is again, you keep repeating false information and then when called on it, you basically said I didn't say false information, I said . . . and then you proceed to repeat that information but using different words and with a personal anecdote as to why isn't false.
Also, random emails isn't research. YWIA.
I'm really confused by your experiences with churches, tbh. You do not read as a person who has some kind of faith, looking for a church home that matches up with your beliefs. Your stories read as someone who is looking for an objectively right answer using secular framework. So what exactly is it you are looking for when church shopping? What's your ultimate goal because I don't get the sense you're trying to find a body of like minded believers with whom you'd like to fellowship which is generally the goal.
And I asked you to call out anything I said that was blatantly wrong. I always try to qualify my posts with "many" "some" "in my experience" "my church". So if something sounds jacked up, but I stated that this is what my church taught, then that is not stating wrong info. If I make a blanket statement that is wrong, feel free to call me out on it and rectify what I said. I will not get the least bit offended.
These weren't random emails. I didn't want to spend two years visiting churches before I found a church home. I'm sure my feelings on church are all over the place. My dad was a cradle Catholic who left the church. Mom was Lutheran. I was baptized Lutheran. Raised mostly in a Baptist church. All was good. ........As a teenager we moved to Florida and my mom somehow fell into this nutty fundie church. It was a huge church with close to 2000 members but they were basically a church full of Duggars meets Westboro Baptist. That is where I was beat over the head with their hateful ant-gay, misogynistic doctrine. I left the fundie church in my mid 20s, found a nice Baptist church I went to for a few years. Then we moved to the city and I basically spent years as an agnostic who hated all things church and Christian. A couple of years ago I started missing church and wanted to find something that fit me personally. Since churches don't exactly waive their anti-gay, anti-woman feelings on their websites. So I sent out emails asking them straight out to tell me their beliefs so I didn't have to waste my time going. I spent many years in the fire and brimstone, gays are going to hell, the working woman has destroyed the family unit, types of churches. I didn't want to deal with that again. After I received the emails back from the Lutheran and Episcopal church, I went and did more research on them. Did I delve knee deep into their history? No. I just wanted to know a little more about them. When I began my search, I thought I'd end up in one of the newer churches with the rock bands and light show and here I ended up in a beautiful 150 year old building. I just thought it was funny. That's all.
All I wanted out of a church was some place I can go and worship in peace. I don't care who anyone votes for in an election or any of that crap. I wanted someplace to praise and worship only. I found that and life is good.
Ok, but (God, why am I doing this?) you realize that there's more to finding a Church than their stance on gay rights and women, right? And, really, probably shouldn't even be central to finding a faith.
I mean, I have my issues with the Catholic Church on a very few topics but none of them are dogmatic in nature. I wouldn't leave it because I believe in transubstantiation - not consubstantiation or any watering down of it. I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, and even the "ever virginity" of Mary (though I will admit this was a concept I "struggled with", as 2V would say, in my early 20s). I believe that Jesus was both human AND divine, not that his divinity subsumed his humanity or any variation on that. I believe in the Trinity. Etc. a.k.a. ALL of the things that make a Catholic a Catholic. While the rest isn't window dressing, it is part of my PERSONAL faith journey.
Finding a FAITH is very, VERY different from finding a church within that faith.
Also, earlier in the thread, I implied pretty heavily that saying you aren't protestant doesn't exactly mean you aren't which I would have thought would carry over to some baptists. And since I said some baptists think so, you would think that would also imply that those baptists weren't right since many baptists do acknowledge their protestant roots AND the group they are using as the basis for the thought process that they aren't baptists aren't sure they aren't Protestants either.
Eclaires of course I do. But honestly, all Christian churches worship God and if I want to just worship God I can go to any church and do that. I wanted to find someplace where I felt comfortable and I personally do NOT feel comfortable hearing the 1000th sermon on the working woman neglecting the family, the man is the head of the household, gays are destroying America. Who wants to hear that? In church no less? Not me.
It's not like the gay and women stance was my only issue. It was a starting place.Obviously I had to like the church itself. And it's been two years and I'm finally at peace and happy where I am.
I don't know if you've ever been to a fire and brimstone, fundie, womant hatin' church but believe me, I had good reasons to want to avoid a church with those doctrines. The emails were only to help me weed out what I didn't want. I had to actually visit churches to find what I wanted. I ended up at the Episcopal over the Lutheran becasue it was closer to my house and even that is almost an hour away. I'm in the boonies of Virginia y'all! lol. There is a fantastic Methodist church that I've attended with a friend of mine as well. They're good people and if I ever left the Episcopal, I could slide right in with the Methodists no problem.
Habs I get very confused too. Forums can suck that way.
Also, earlier in the thread, I implied pretty heavily that saying you aren't protestant doesn't exactly mean you aren't which I would have thought would carry over to some baptists. And since I said some baptists think so, you would think that would also imply that those baptists weren't right since many baptists do acknowledge their protestant roots AND the group they are using as the basis for the thought process that they aren't baptists aren't sure they aren't Protestants either.
Thank you, curly. I was wondering if I was working it wrong.
Sydney, what do you believe about the Bible, about Jesus? Because idk, I think you miss the church community in which case, you could consider going Unitarianism.
Also, I've repeatedly addressed what you've said that was incorrect. And you've repeatedly insisted that's not what you said while then going on to say exactly that. And this is my frustration with you.
The problem with searching for a church based on broad social commentary the way you're expressing it is that while there are many, many denominations who as a whole hold these tenets, the majority of them will not be preaching that from the pulpit. But when inquired about it via email will quote Bible verses and church teachings that will set one's teeth on edge. So again, I'm not sure what you're looking for. If you're looking for a church that believes what you do (again, I'm not sure what that is), you're kind of going about it in the wrong way.
I mean hell, as a methodist where we do have a governing body, as it were, telling us what the guidelines are, there are still a variety of congregations who practice and interpret those guidelines quite differently. In my town alone, I know there are at least 6 UMC churches. I used to go to one that was every -ism/-ist you could think of (and left as soon as I figured that out) but there is at least one that makes it their main business to be gay friendly.
NewOrleans, I would just add that not only did the golden boy die of the gold paint, poor Hanno the white elephant died after being given some gold-coated laxatives. You'd think that Leo would have learned his lesson about painting things gold, but I guess not.
DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to be a Luther with this post. Just relating a humorous tale about a Medici gentleman of yore.
Thank you, curly. I was wondering if I was working it wrong.
Sydney, what do you believe about the Bible, about Jesus? Because idk, I think you miss the church community in which case, you could consider going Unitarianism.
Also, I've repeatedly addressed what you've said that was incorrect. And you've repeatedly insisted that's not what you said while then going on to say exactly that. And this is my frustration with you.
The problem with searching for a church based on broad social commentary the way you're expressing it is that while there are many, many denominations who as a whole hold these tenets, the majority of them will not be preaching that from the pulpit. But when inquired about it via email will quote Bible verses and church teachings that will set one's teeth on edge. So again, I'm not sure what you're looking for. If you're looking for a church that believes what you do (again, I'm not sure what that is), you're kind of going about it in the wrong way.
I mean hell, as a methodist where we do have a governing body, as it were, telling us what the guidelines are, there are still a variety of congregations who practice and interpret those guidelines quite differently. In my town alone, I know there are at least 6 UMC churches. I used to go to one that was every -ism/-ist you could think of (and left as soon as I figured that out) but there is at least one that makes it their main business to be gay friendly.
Unitarian isn't my thing because I do believe in the Trinity.
I'm not looking for anything right now. I've been attending the Episcopal church for two years and I am a member. Went through adult confirmation and everything. I'm very happy at my church and have no plans to leave.
I'm actually very conservative in many ways. I'm registered Independent and will vote D or R. (My comment about finding a liberal church was actually liberal compared to the fundie church I went to. So I can see the confusion there.)
When it comes to a church, I just didn't want to hear politics in the sermon. Are there people in my church who think gays are going to hell? I'm sure there are. My question in the email was regarding the sermons only and what they will preach. I didn't want to be told who to vote for, how much vitrol I should have toward gays, and how a Christian woman should be w/r/t working outside the home and submitting to one's husband. I don't think there is anything strange about wanting to steer away from a church that preached these issues from the pulpit, is there? I just as soon not go to church at all if I had to hear sermons like that. I heard many of them. Thankfully the Episcopal and Lutheran church gave great answers. The Episcopal church's email response was actually pretty humorous. I remember the answer to women's roles was something like, "You are receiving this email from a woman rector. Any other questions?" lol It was something funny like that.
This church is very traditional which I like. I like the old, stodgy hymns, as my DH refers to them. The focus is on prayer, praise and worship, not who's going to hell. It's been a nice change for me.
And Habs I reread my posts and I can see where I'm coming across as someone with little faith. I don't mean to come across that way. Believe me, my faith is strong. Even though I was away from the church for many years, I never stopped beleiving in God. There were many times I doubted if the Judeo-Christian God was real during my church hiatus, but I never doubted there was a God. That's why I said I was agnostic. Perhaps that word is wrong I never was truly agnostic. I don't know.
All I know is I spent 27 years as a holy roller, and almost 12 as knowing there was a God but having lots of doubts about the Christian God. During those 12 years I wanted nothing to do with organized religion or belonging to a church, though. To me, faith and religion are separate entities. So while I lost my passion for church and religion, I never lost my passion for God.
My need for a church home came back with a vengeance a couple of years ago and that's went church hunting. Found my church and I'm happy. I'm sure this more than anyone cares to know about me, lol.
Sigh. Okay, if you don't like jokes about history, I guess it's a good thing you're not in my classes. And btw, I really like Leo X. He was a baller, and wanted to act like all the other renaissance princes. And poor kid was a cardinal at 13, which must have been hard.
Anyway, thanks for saying I'm no better than Luther. I've never gotten that one before.
I'm sorry you took it that way. I said your exaggerations were no better than Luther's exaggerations (and all I was doing was taking from something you said earlier in the thread ...which was Luther used exaggerations regarding the Cahtolic Church/the Popes, etc). I'm not equating you with Luther at all.
I will say that I'm glad to hear that you do teach a class on Reformation Propaganda...at least you give both sides equal time. I can respect that.
Sigh. Okay, if you don't like jokes about history, I guess it's a good thing you're not in my classes. And btw, I really like Leo X. He was a baller, and wanted to act like all the other renaissance princes. And poor kid was a cardinal at 13, which must have been hard.
Anyway, thanks for saying I'm no better than Luther. I've never gotten that one before.
I'm sorry you took it that way. I said your exaggerations were no better than Luther's exaggerations (and all I was doing was taking from something you said earlier in the thread ...which was Luther used exaggerations regarding the Cahtolic Church/the Popes, etc). I'm not equating you with Luther at all.
I will say that I'm glad to hear that you do teach a class on Reformation Propaganda...at least you give both sides equal time. I can respect that.
That sounds like a fascinating class. Smock you don't happen to teach around central VA do you? lol. I'd love to take that course.
I'm not Catholic but I've seen a lot of posts that seem to bash Catholics. I don't think this post is one of them. But I think because of the history of Catholic bashing it's easy to see how a person could get their back up with even the mention of Catholicism. That's all. I don't know if there is any board history with 2V but I like her and I think she's always pretty diplomatic in defending herself. I admire that.
I appreciate that again sydney. For someone who isn't Catholic, you really seem to get it. My board history basically revolves around abortion (a topic I rarely bother with anymore) and the Catholic Church. And believe it or not, I have passed on a *number* of posts regarding it recently (like the recent Mother Theresa comments for example). I have even agreed on a recent one that involved Catholic organziations (shocker!).
Bottom line is that I recognize that, at best, much of what I say goes in one ear and out the other and I'm not going to change a single poster. However, I have my limits and smock's original post (not most of the thread before that btw) rubbed me the wrong way enough to say something. And I will continue to say something even if fellow Catholics prefer to LOL or roll their eyes at my apologist nature. I suspect some of that lol'ing is because I've spoken out before about the fact that they do not agree with all of the Church teachings. I know eclaires has admitted that that colors her views of my posts. So be it. I'm fine with that.
ETA: And I'm getting PO'ed that I can't seem to quote and then bold/cut certain parts of quotes. I don't know what I am doing wrong.
LOL at giving "both sides equal time." I have no idea what both sides are in this case--like it's 6 am and I just read the entire 9 pages and I have no clue which side is which or why there are two of them.
But I love that smock is the Fox News of history professors. Fair and balanced! Because that's what the study of history at a collegiate level should be concerned with.
I was referring to Catholic and Protestant. I know the rest of this thread is a lot more involved and deals with a lot more denominations.
Actually I couldn't care less about what you think about any other Catholics' beliefs or what they disagree with. ETA: I have said in the past that I find that I am quicker to be snarky with you, because of past interactions, but that I'm also not opposed to snark, in general, so any snarkiness is due to more than one factor and a combination of things. Minus that past interaction, I still would have responded like I did in this thread because you were defending a Medici pope and arguing about an elephant and your MO is to defend the Catholic Church on everything, even if it's completely ridiculous, and almost always you say "there is probably more to the story." Sometimes there just isn't and sometimes it just doesn't matter. And that MO of yours bothers me far more than your views on my faith.
I just don't want Catholics to be represented by your overly sensitive and defensive nature and I think your objections and "more to the story" on every single Catholic post waters down what Catholic bashing really is. I think another Catholic is in the position best to comment on it. Not to mention that I personally find your views very odd and so completely opposite of any other Catholic I've ever come across. (Btw that's not an insult even though I'm sure you will somehow take it as such - it's just an observation and probably part of why I even comment when I disagree with you).
Actually I couldn't care less about what you think about any other Catholics' beliefs or what they disagree with. S
I just don't want Catholics to be represented by your overly sensitive and defensive nature and I think your objections and "more to the story" on every single Catholic post waters down what Catholic bashing really is. I think another Catholic is in the position best to comment on it. Not to mention that I personally find your views very odd and so completely opposite of any other Catholic I've ever come across. (Btw that's not an insult even though I'm sure you will somehow take it as such - it's just an observation and probably part of why I even comment when I disagree with you).
Well, when I left the board a few months back you made it very clear that my past post about Catholics who do not believe all teachings of the church DID color your views of my posts.
As for my response regarding "more to the story" very often there is more to the story and I bring it to the thread. In those cases I rarely hear back from the peanut gallery. I also say the same damn thing for a lot of things out there, articles, etc. I know it irks a lot of people because it's so much easier to jump to conclusions!
As for my being very different than a lot of Catholics you've come across, yes that is probably very true. But you hang around Catholics that are like you. There are a ton of Catholics out there that are like me....just not on forums like this one. In fact, you would be surprised how many Catholics there are who are even stricter, more defensive, etc than I am!! And they aren't even CONVERTS!
Anyway, I don't want Cahtolics to be represented by your liberal nature either, so I guess that makes us even.
ETA: Whatever eclaires. Don't like my posts about the Church? Put me on ignore.
LOL @ my liberal nature! I imagine your rabid defense and judgmental opinion on others' beliefs is really winning over more Catholics for the church, so keep on keepin' on. Please see my ETA w/r/t what is meant by coloring my view of you. You seem to think that it's some sort of major grudge where I look for posts to jump all over your case, when in reality, it just makes me occasionally more likely to be snarky immediately (but not in this case).
FTR, I've actually been a member of more traditional Catholic congregations, and they are still absolutely nothing like you, even if they prefer a Tridentine mass and dislike the changes made with Vatican II. And are in general, more conservative and traditional in their view of Catholicism. They are still not rabid in their defense of everything the Church does, and I have no issue with them or anything they say. I may not agree with them or believe/worship in the same way, but I don't have a problem with them. Just because you think I'm "liberal" and only surround myself with like minded people doesn't mean I do... talk about jumping to conclusions, lol.
And if you can't admit that arguing over a Medici pope and an elephant waters down accusations of real Catholic bashing, I think we're done here. Like I said, keep on keepin' on with that. I'm sure you're going to change some minds and gain some credibility.
Why in the world would I ignore your posts? I'm not sitting here raging, and I have no issue with posting my thoughts in disagreement with you. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm stroking out with rage over here. I'm happy to post my disagreements when I have them.
LOL @ my liberal nature! I imagine your rabid defense and judgmental opinion on others' beliefs is really winning over more Catholics for the church, so keep on keepin' on. Please see my ETA w/r/t what is meant by coloring my view of you. You seem to think that it's some sort of major grudge where I look for posts to jump all over your case, when in reality, it just makes me occasionally more likely to be snarky immediately (but not in this case).
FTR, I've actually been a member of more traditional Catholic congregations, and they are still absolutely nothing like you, even if they prefer a Tridentine mass and dislike the changes made with Vatican II. And are in general, more conservative and traditional in their view of Catholicism. They are still not rabid in their defense of everything the Church does, and I have no issue with them or anything they say. I may not agree with them or believe/worship in the same way, but I don't have a problem with them. Just because you think I'm "liberal" and only surround myself with like minded people doesn't mean I do... talk about jumping to conclusions, lol.
And if you can't admit that arguing over a Medici pope and an elephant waters down accusations of real Catholic bashing, I think we're done here. Like I said, keep on keepin' on with that. I'm sure you're going to change some minds and gain some credibility.
My issue with the post was more than just an elephant and I really think that most here who keep saying this are being obtuse at this point (including the jump to the "like Luther" comment which I never said). If I had said that this pope was a good pope and that comments about him being bad was Catholic bashing, then I could see your saying what you are saying. But I never said that. I also never defended the Pope. All I said was that, when making accusations, that they be accurate ..not exaggerated or false. Yeah, our history doesn't need more crap added onto it. On top of that, I'm supposed to be all well and good with that ...as a JOKE? Catholic bashing comes in all forms, not just the forms you think are bashing. If I had a brother who did some crappy things, would it be okay for another person to make an exaggerated joke about him in my presence ? Because I see the Catholic Church as my FAMILY....the good and the bad. And yes, I'm sensitive to the jokes. I'm a sensitive person generally, so clearly something that means that much to me is going to bother me a just a wee bit. And I don't need fellow Catholics telling me my reactions are bullshit, TYVM.
I am surprised that you ever attended a conservative church...my bad. Having said that, as for your conservative parishioners, maybe they don't bother responding a certain way with you because they know it won't go anywhere or end up in an argument. Or maybe they just don't have the courage to do so. Maybe they would respond differently if they were on a message board (because I probably would hold my tongue in person too). I am on other message boards where there are a lot of traditional and conservative posters who have no problem saying similar things that I say here (**and then some**).
And LOL at calling me judgmental because of my views on your liberal nature when that is all you have done in your posts about me. I'm not looking to win over or gain credibility with Catholics like yourself..I know you are entrenched in your belief system. Those who are open to hearing what I have to say will hear it.
I'm so sad I just now am discovering this thread. I LOVE Tudor history. Until I learned more about Eleanor of Aquitaine and now that just fascinates me.
Conservative vs liberal Catholics? As long as we aren't playing "im better than you", carry on. Because, if someone slams with cafeteria Catholic, I will be ticked.