I keep debating about writing this post, but I really need advice and am not sure what to do. I love my dog - I really do (the cute pom in my avatar). However, she is vicious. She "almost" attacked my son (2.5 yrs old) the other day. I say "almost" because my husband was standing right there and lifted DS straight up in the air so that the dog couldn't get him. But in my mind, it is still an attack.
DH, DS and I had just finished dinner and were walking back to the bathroom, and DS decided he wanted another drink of water and walked back to the table. DH followed him (thank god), I did not. The dog was sniffing around the table. I didn't see exactly what happened, but DS must have walked too close to the dog or gotten close to a crumb that the dog was interested in. The dog went after him (his feet - that is usually how she attacks). She might have gotten him (or his sock?) a tiny bit, but DH reacted so quickly by grabbing DS that there was no brusing or broken skin. I think DS was more scared than hurt because he only cried for a second and we didn't see anything on his toes/feet.
I just can't imagine what would have happened if DH was not home. He usually isn't home at nights. I am not as quick as DH these days (7 months pregnant), and soon, I'll be carrying around a newborn in addition to keeping an eye on DS. It all happened so fast - I would have not been there in time if it was just me.
The dog was always my baby (before I had a human baby). She's always been quite difficult. I adopted her at about 9 months old. About a week after I got her, I noticed that she had chewed a large chunk off a plastic toy. I went to pick her up so that she wouldn't eat it and choke. I now have a nice c-shaped scar on my hand that has been there for almost 9 years. I almost got rid of her then, but I didn't.
She's since bitten nearly everyone in my family. She's bitten me multiple times, my husband several times (badly on both feet at one point - he stepped off the bed and she must have felt he was too close to her), my father (trying to take something out of her mouth, which was dumb on his part but still), my sister (putting her feet down at the table and the dog was there under her feet). She really only bites for a reason - e.g., she is stepped on/into or someone steps too close, she has something in her mouth and you get too close (extreme food possession), she is touched while sleeping.
She's been really good for the last couple years - I don't think there have been any bites. She's also done a good job of staying out of the toddler's way. However, lately she's been getting underfoot much more frequently. I feel like I am yelling at her to get off/out like 20 times a day because she just keeps getting in DS's way. We constantly teach DS to leave the dog alone and watch where he is walking. He doesn't bother the dog, but he isn't always great at looking where he is going.
I just can't get over the latest attack. If DH wasn't there at that exact second, DS would be bitten all over his feet/toes. I really don't know what to do. We have discussed rehoming, but how fair is it to give away a vicous dog? It would have to be someone who knows how to handle dogs (and difficult dogs). It would have to be someone that has absolutely no chance of kids coming over, so no grandparents, young people, etc. Would the new owner remember all the "rules" or would they forget and get bitten right away? I feel like I still remind my husband daily, "Watch out for the dog!" although I think he is well trained by now. Plus, the dog is on liver meds, joint meds, and mood meds, and will probably need a couple leg surgeries at some point in her life, plus annual/bi-annual dental cleanings. She is not cheap.
Does a dog like this even deserve to live? It breaks my heart when I think about putting her down - I don't know if I could do it. She can be very sweet and cuddly, and could sit on your lap all day. She is quite well trained and is pretty good at listening. On the other hand, she has severe anxiety and will freak out over movement outside/truck driving by/door opening/doorbell/loud noise etc. The doorbell ringing will result in 15 minutes of crazy barking without being able to calm her down. I want to try anti-anxiety meds (she is only on St. John's Wort right now per vet rec.) but I have to pull her off the liver meds to try the anti-anxiety meds. It might be worth it anyway.
I can't really separate her. When we are in the playroom, we are fine because she stays in the main part of the house and we shut the doors. But the rest of the house is all open - there is no way to block off a section of the family room/kitchen etc. She won't go in a crate. If I put her in the bedroom while we are in the rest of the house, she will bark the entire time. During a playdate (I always put her away if there are other people around), she will bark for three hours straight and claw at the door. The door has no more paint at the bottom.
We brought in a behaviorist before we had a kid. She said that the dog is missing the "warning gene" - she goes from nothing to 100% attack without a warning. That is the main problem here. I asked her, "Well, what do we do when we have kids?" She said, "Don't have kids."
Any advice? I am seriously broken hearted about this. I've had this dog over 9 years and I feel a huge sense of responsibility for her. But I can't put my kids at risk.
And good god, thanks for reading my book of a post!
... We brought in a behaviorist before we had a kid. She said that the dog is missing the "warning gene" - she goes from nothing to 100% attack without a warning. That is the main problem here. I asked her, "Well, what do we do when we have kids?" She said, "Don't have kids." ...
I am really sorry you are going through this. Unfortunately, I don't have much to offer to help your situation except to get a new behaviorist who can work with you, the dog, and the kid(s) together. I know some dogs just aren't every going to be good with children, but I would have been pretty frustrated at a behaviorist who said the above.
I hope someone else has some better suggestions to offer.
She's been to a training school, and we worked with the behaviorist for awhile. She is well trained when she is focusing (sit, stay, come, tricks, etc.).
I've never talked to the vet about the biting because I didn't want to get reported or be told I had to put her down.
I don't think this is a question of deserving to live. It sounds like you've done a lot for her so far, but I would try the anxiety meds before taking any extreme measures. Does your vet have an opinion on the anxiety issues? I might also check with one additional behaviorist if you can. I'd do whatever you can to make sure your dog and your kid are never alone together in the meantime. Easier said than done?
I don't know, it's hard - I'm not a parent (yet), but I totally understand keeping your kids safe first. On the other hand, I'm a complete nut for my dogs. I can't imagine giving them up. Is there a pom rescue that might work with you if it comes to that?
I would discuss the behavior with your vet. I had issues with my chessie with attacks like this. Training classes aren't going to work in this situation and in most- won't allow a dog that lashes out like this. Contact your vet, ask them for a trained behaviorist to figure out what is going on. Combo of meds, training the dogs, you and the child is something that will have to be done. Keep everyone separate for now though.
There are some dogs that won't be good with children-honestly my chessie would of never been good with kids and 4 trainers showed us how to cope with her issues as best as we could. But you won't know the real issue unless you speak to your vet and talk to a trainer that is trained in these areas.
Post by mollybrown on Jan 29, 2013 13:44:55 GMT -5
I'd rehome the dog. I wouldn't be able to live with the guilt if my child was injured by a dog that I was on notice had a problem.
If you decide to keep the dog, I would keep the child and dog separated as much as possible. I know a family that chose this route, and fortunately, the mom was able to take the dog to work with her during the day so it wasn't at home with the child. It seemed like a LOT of work.
I'd suggest another behaviorist, and if that doesn't work, trying to just keep the dog and children separated completely until the dog naturally passes (I realize this could be another 5+ years).
Or try to find a place that takes and works with vicious dogs. I would NOT rehome to any one individual family or person.
I say this as someone that was bitten as a kid pretty badly by a family dog with no warning. It still scares me to this day. I will not personally have a dog and young children because of what happened to me.
She's been to a training school, and we worked with the behaviorist for awhile. She is well trained when she is focusing (sit, stay, come, tricks, etc.).
I've never talked to the vet about the biting because I didn't want to get reported or be told I had to put her down.
You need to explain to them your dogs behavior, there might be a reason why the dog is doing these things. I would first rule out all medical reasons, including mental issues that could be going on.
Well, the 'does this dog deserve to live' part is disturbing. I'd like to think that you didn't mean that.
You have 2 choices here. You either rehome her, or you invest in another behavioralist and continue to work with her until she improves.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
I don't want to put her down. That's why I am asking for help here. However, if everyone tells me that a dog like this is too dangerous and should be put down, then I would have some thinking to do. Hopefully that isn't the response.
I am not one to think an animal is disposable. If there was a fix for this, I would embrace it in a second.
The question "does a dog like this even deserve to live" makes me fear that you've already lost hope before you've even started trying. You don't say something like that about a dog that has been your baby before you had a human child.
You need to call your vet and ask for a behaviorist reference. Have you spoken to your vet about this problem in the past? It might be worth a shot. There are doggie meds out there that help pets who have imbalances. Sounds like it's worth a shot to take that route, first.
As your pet has moved into adulthood, I think meeting with a behaviorist again is also a smart option.
I don't know, it's hard - I'm not a parent (yet), but I totally understand keeping your kids safe first. On the other hand, I'm a complete nut for my dogs. I can't imagine giving them up. Is there a pom rescue that might work with you if it comes to that?
Good luck, you have a tough situation.
We're here too. I would definitely bring in a behaviorist to work with all of you first. If that doesn't work, trying to rehome through a rescue would definitely better than being put down.
I imagine we'll have issues when we have kids as our dog is also very food aggressive, it's pretty scary.
I'm sorry. We had a dog like that when I was a kid, but I don't have helpful advice. We were older - I was 10ish and my brother was 5ish when she came home as a puppy. Her issues got more intense as she got older, and we were old enough to (mostly) avoid those interactions. Like your dog, she was completely unable to be crate trained. Some of the biting stories sound so familiar, too. I have a couple inch long scar on my thumb from trying to take away a ziploc bag of cookies that she'd stolen off the counter once. I didn't want her to choke on the bag. My parents almost put her down over that one. When she wasn't in freak out mode, she was very loving.
We boarded her for the day every time we hosted a holiday or party, so she wasn't around large groups or people who didn't know her quirks. We utilized baby gates in the house to keep her separated from various temptations and people. She eventually lived out her days being coddled, but we were all half relieved when she died. It happened after a teeth cleaning at the vet's; she had to have teeth extracted and cleaned because of infection - not a dog that was going to let us brush her teeth! - and she never fully woke up from anesthesia. She was about 13.
With little ones I am not sure what to suggest, but good luck with finding a solution that works for your family.
ETA: re: the separation in the house thing? I don't totally buy that you literally can't gate off parts of the house, no matter how open the floor plan. There are so many baby gate options - you can get entire gate "walls" or build them pretty easily. So don't let your floor plan be an excuse not to try physical separation if it would otherwise work.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
It sounds like your dog might be more of a warning nipper than an attacker.
I'm sorry you're going through this. While I don't have kids, my dog struggles with this sort of thing too, although not as bad. I know it's hard.
Meet with a new behaviorist. Talk to the vet. Try anti-anxiety meds.
Frankly, in the situations you listed in her attacks, those are reasonable for a dog. Food aggression, agression after touching a dog while sleeping, etc. are things that could happen with any dog. While working with a behaviorist and/or trainer, talk about having a safe haven for your dog, a special "dog only" place that you keep her during meal times, etc. This place, presumably with a bed for her, should not be right next to a couch, bed, kitchen table where people frequently are. At meal times, for example, she is at her place and no one can step on her or have her close to food.
The dog deserves to live. If, after you've exhausted all alternatives, you cannot keep the dog please either re-home her or give her to a dog rescue. Note, not a shelter but a dog rescue.
Post by phunluvin82 on Jan 29, 2013 13:49:36 GMT -5
So this dog is almost 10 years old?
What would the effect be of taking her off the liver meds? I would be seriously considering anti-anxiety meds or sedatives, but IDK the details of what the liver meds are doing for her and how much she needs them to function/live...so I guess that's hard to say without more info.
"I can't really separate her. When we are in the playroom, we are fine because she stays in the main part of the house and we shut the doors. But the rest of the house is all open - there is no way to block off a section of the family room/kitchen etc. She won't go in a crate. If I put her in the bedroom while we are in the rest of the house, she will bark the entire time. During a playdate (I always put her away if there are other people around), she will bark for three hours straight and claw at the door. The door has no more paint at the bottom."
Well, the 'does this dog deserve to live' part is disturbing. I'd like to think that you didn't mean that.
You have 2 choices here. You either rehome her, or you invest in another behavioralist and continue to work with her until she improves.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
I don't want to put her down. That's why I am asking for help here. However, if everyone tells me that a dog like this is too dangerous and should be put down, then I would have some thinking to do. Hopefully that isn't the response.
I am not one to think an animal is disposable. If there was a fix for this, I would embrace it in a second.
So far, no one has said that. You haven't exhausted all your options. Talk to your vet. I'm sure your not the first to bring this issue to them. Perhaps they can recommend a behavioralist that specializes in biting? As others have mentioned, maybe they can give you anxiety meds to take the edge off. It sounds like you're giving up already. Keep trying.
I'm sorry, I missed what you said about isolation and crate training. Please work with trainers and behaviorists again. I fully believe most dogs are trainable. My little guy was a hot mess when we got him and he has really, truly flourished (gag). It has taken a lot of work not just for him but for H and I, too. FWIW, we use a baby gate and keep our dog in the kitchen. He struggled for awhile but now has a great routine and is doing well.
Well, the 'does this dog deserve to live' part is disturbing. I'd like to think that you didn't mean that.
You have 2 choices here. You either rehome her, or you invest in another behavioralist and continue to work with her until she improves.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
I don't want to put her down. That's why I am asking for help here. However, if everyone tells me that a dog like this is too dangerous and should be put down, then I would have some thinking to do. Hopefully that isn't the response.
I am not one to think an animal is disposable. If there was a fix for this, I would embrace it in a second.
As someone whom went through this for 5 long grueling years, I couldn't have any strangers in my house, since my dog would attack anyone near me. There were times my dog didn't even allow my own husband to hold me. She had a few mental issues later on from her lyme--but it was so bad the trainers taught us how to cope. Some of these methods sucked since we could not have people over for liability reasons. Sadly we put her down last year after she attacked my FIL - and normally she loved him. It was completely out of the blue, she saw him, greeted fine..5 minutes later growling and attacked. Add that with her lyme/k/d issues I had to do something. I knew we couldn't handle that anymore, it was just getting worse. I loved this dog beyond means, I spent 1000's on medical, trainers, vet, etc--but I had to do what was best for my family and the dog.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
It sounds like your dog might be more of a warning nipper than an attacker.
No, no, no, these are definitely not warning nips! These are deep puncture wounds shaped like her mouth. She just happens to have a small mouth, so it isn't possible for her to bite off an (adult) toe or finger. We've been lucky enough that the bites haven't gotten infected or anything. DH had trouble wearing shoes and walking for a while after she bit both his feet. She goes after you multiple times too - this is not a one nip and walk away type of situation. It is a full on attack, albeit from a little dog.
Well, the 'does this dog deserve to live' part is disturbing. I'd like to think that you didn't mean that.
You have 2 choices here. You either rehome her, or you invest in another behavioralist and continue to work with her until she improves.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
I don't want to put her down. That's why I am asking for help here. However, if everyone tells me that a dog like this is too dangerous and should be put down, then I would have some thinking to do. Hopefully that isn't the response.
I am not one to think an animal is disposable. If there was a fix for this, I would embrace it in a second.
Honestly, I think it's a fair question...and I say this as a dog lover who has also volunteered at shelters and rescues.
Really, what are the chances of being able to rehome a dog who is old, has expensive medical issues, and bites?
She can go to a rescue...but what will her quality of life be like in a rescue? She already has anxiety, and shelters/rescues are often loud, chaotic places. The rescue where I primarily volunteered had a few aggressive dogs...and for liability reasons, they would only let a handful of the most experienced volunteers deal with these dogs. Which meant that they lived most of their life in their cage...were lucky to get one walk a day depending on who was there working that day. And stayed there basically forever because they weren't exactly getting adopted out. If that environment is already stressful for her, then I question whether it's worth putting her through that.
I'm not saying put her down...but I question whether rehoming or giving her to a rescue are really realistic and/or even a good option in this scenario.
What would the effect be of taking her off the liver meds? I would be seriously considering anti-anxiety meds or sedatives, but IDK the details of what the liver meds are doing for her and how much she needs them to function/live...so I guess that's hard to say without more info.
Yes, she is 10. As I understand it, something happened to her liver at some point to make it function not quite as well as it should. I guess the liver meds are a type of supplement to help the liver maintain its function without getting worse? The vets can't say for sure if her liver would get worse if she stopped. But they are definitely a supplement, which makes me more inclined just to stop them and try the anti-anxiety meds.
I am really sorry. What a tough situation for you. I would be honest with your vet and see what she says. I think the anti anxiety meds may help. As others have said, I would also try another trainer who is willing to try to help with the issues.
I do mean it - it is a serious question. The dog bites and attacks people, without warning. If she had bitten strangers and those bites had been reported, I am sure animal control would have taken her away years ago. The bites were never bad enough to warrant medical attention (on an adult) but they were still very painful, took weeks to heal, and scarred.
It sounds like your dog might be more of a warning nipper than an attacker.
Totally agree here!
I don't think your vet will report you to anyone and even if they suggest putting her down (I really honestly don't think they will) but even if they did it's still your choice.
The dog DOES deserve to live...get that out of your head.
I think you should talk with vet first...then another behaviorist.
Well, the 'does this dog deserve to live' part is disturbing. I'd like to think that you didn't mean that.
You have 2 choices here. You either rehome her, or you invest in another behavioralist and continue to work with her until she improves.
I disagree. It sounds like a behavioralist might be able to help, but at at same time, she has already had one working with the dog. I do think, in some case, putting a dog to sleep is the only option if the dog is a danger to its owners or to society/random children. What if she renames to someone and their kid gets hurt? Or a neighbor's kid? I would be extremely careful to rehome any kind of dog that might harm a child. It takes a very vigilant owner to make sure at the dog never, ever comes in contact with a child. Plus, it sounds like the dog is biting adults too. I love dogs and i would never want to hurt an animal, but sometimes, a dog that is a ticking time bomb and a danger to the community at large needs to be taken care of responsibly. Maybe consult a few rescue groups (not shelters) if you really need to rehome, but give them full disclosure of all her issues. Many will not take dogs with biting histories. It would be really unfair to rehome her without the new owner/rescue being aware of her issues though.
I love dogs, but I guess I had a bad experience that makes me worry a little more about dogs with biting histories. I was bitten by a neighbor's (large) dog when I was a kid. It turned out that the dog had a history of biting other people. The owners struggled with what to do and ended up trying more training, working with a bahvioralist and watching it more vigilantly. I had begged them, as a kid who loved dogs, not to do anything to the dog, blaming myself for petting it too quickly instead. Sadly, about a month later, it attacked a woman who was visiting their house, biting her face severely. It was awful.
But, all that said, I don't think the OP has exhausted all other options and it looks like a small dog that's probably easier to manage. I think a new bahavioralist, medication and separation should be explored, for sure.
Mostly by yelling at her that she is a bad dog and demanding that she leave the area. We also have a squirt gun (evolved from the spray bottle) that is sometimes used.
In almost all situations (barking/freaking out type situations), the mere presence of the squirt gun will make her stop what she is doing (without needing to spray). There is no stopping her in the middle of an attack, however. The only solution is to jump far enough away so that she can't reach you anymore.
Honestly, I think it's a fair question...and I say this as a dog lover who has also volunteered at shelters and rescues.
Really, what are the chances of being able to rehome a dog who is old, has expensive medical issues, and bites?
She can go to a rescue...but what will her quality of life be like in a rescue? She already has anxiety, and shelters/rescues are often loud, chaotic places. The rescue where I primarily volunteered had a few aggressive dogs...and for liability reasons, they would only let a handful of the most experienced volunteers deal with these dogs. Which meant that they lived most of their life in their cage...were lucky to get one walk a day depending on who was there working that day. And stayed there basically forever because they weren't exactly getting adopted out. If that environment is already stressful for her, then I question whether it's worth putting her through that.
I'm not saying put her down...but I question whether rehoming or giving her to a rescue are really realistic and/or even a good option in this scenario.
I think if re-homing is necessary, she should shop around for rescues. The one we got out dog from does not crate at all. Yes, it's hard to have an aggressive dog adopted but you know what? People do adopt them sometimes. And they are still in a loving foster home. I know you're a dog lover but I don't want to discourage OP from this option just based on a few experiences, you know? And as we both know, shelters and rescues are not always synonymous.
As I understand it, something happened to her liver at some point to make it function not quite as well as it should. I guess the liver meds are a type of supplement to help the liver maintain its function without getting worse? The vets can't say for sure if her liver would get worse if she stopped. But they are definitely a supplement, which makes me more inclined just to stop them and try the anti-anxiety meds.