Attorneys: waiving into DC?

[Susie]

Calvin & I are both only admitted in one state (NY) which has pretty crappy reciprocity with other states for bar admission.  We don't have any actual plans to move, but I'm not really one to ascribe to the "forever [home/job/etc.]" idea.  I like where we live, and it works for us, but I can think of other places I might enjoy more some day.

Neither one of us wants to sit for another bar exam should that someday come.  I could probably avoid it (being admitted to the patent bar) but if we moved out of state he'd definitely have to. 

We're thinking of waiving into DC now, since they have reciprocity with NY and most other places once we've been admitted in DC (I think for 5 years?).  We'd have to pay for our bar dues, but there's no additional CLE requirement.

Has anyone done it?  Think it's worth it?  Any comments on it?

[Deleted]

What is the cost to waive in and how much are annual dues?

Generally, I think I'd have a lot better things to do with my money that pay each year just to preserve the possibility of waiving into another state some day, just in case I decide to move. It's all a little too tenuous for me to think paying $500-1000 (my guess)/year indefinitely is a good idea.

[Deleted]

So that's $1400 in up front costs for Susie and Mr. Derkins.

And another $440/year.

Would not be worth it to me. Susie, even if you firm paid yours, that's still a lot.

I guess I'm in a different position because I know I'm not going back to the state I used to live in, but after 2 years of paying my $300 dues on my own (govt employee), I gave up my membership for that state. It was sad, but it just wasn't a good use of my resources to pay for that indefinitely.

Maybe if you had an official five year plan to move ...

[suzyp]

I'm not a regular poster here, but I waived into DC about 7 years ago. Pretty simple process if I remember correctly, just filled out a form and I must have had my MBE score sent as well. It was about $1500 I think (my firm paid for it because I was practicing there). Yearly dues are not that much. I am in Texas now and pay the non-active dues, which are $135, active dues are $255.

I know a lot of people that took NY and then immediately applied to waive into DC for the same reasons (i.e. in case they want to try to get reciprocal admissions down the road).

I am licensed in four jurisdictions (DC, MD, VA and TX), so I am a bit biased in my opinion that another license can't hurt!

ETA: my memory of the costs to waive is may be completely wrong - i looked into doing it before I had a job and I just know that it was more than I wanted to pay and waited until I could have someone else pay for it.

[Susie]

Jan 31, 2013 15:34:37 GMT -5 @totsintosa said:

So that's $1400 in up front costs for Susie and Mr. Derkins.

And another $440/year.

Would not be worth it to me. Susie, even if you firm paid yours, that's still a lot.

I guess I'm in a different position because I know I'm not going back to the state I used to live in, but after 2 years of paying my $300 dues on my own (govt employee), I gave up my membership for that state. It was sad, but it just wasn't a good use of my resources to pay for that indefinitely.

Maybe if you had an official five year plan to move ...

I haven't asked, but there's a reasonable chance my firm would pay for mine.  Mine is the less important, though.  I'm on partner track here, with no plans to leave for another firm.  If I were to leave, it would probably be to go in house (where I'd probably be fine with NY + USPTO).

Calvin would be the expensive one, since we'd obviously be paying OOP since he is a government employee.  Hell, we have to personally pay for his NY bar dues, even though they're required for his job.

We definitely don't have a 5 year plan that involves a move.  I just cringe at the idea of some awesome opportunity in, e.g., NJ (where I am from) coming up that would be made difficult by only having NY bar admissions.

[Deleted]

Hmmm ... if you're open to moving some time soon if the right job comes along, then it might be worth it, especially if you could do the cheaper inactive status and that would count for waiving in elsewhere.

[Deleted]

Totally hijacking this post, but @totsintosa, do you have any thoughts on whether I should get barred out east and let WI lapse? I'm guessing the right thing to do is to maintain the status quo until H gets a job and we have a better idea of what our future holds. Ugh. I just want to be barred some place with less expensive dues!

[Deleted]

I just know you guys have a lot of financial goals regarding the student loans, and the upfront investment seems high.

Taking a bar exam isn't the end of the world, especially if it would just be Calvin as the trailing spouse if you've found a great gig that doesn't require bar admission in the new state.

[Deleted]

Jan 31, 2013 15:46:02 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Totally hijacking this post, but @totsintosa, do you have any thoughts on whether I should get barred out east and let WI lapse? I'm guessing the right thing to do is to maintain the status quo until H gets a job and we have a better idea of what our future holds. Ugh. I just want to be barred some place with less expensive dues!

You should definitely waive into DC (or VA) and drop Wisconsin once groomy relocates. There is no need to be paying almost $500/year to WI if there's almost no chance you'll be back.  Especially since it will always be coming out of your own pocket as long as you're with the govt.

[biscoffcookies]

Jan 31, 2013 15:50:31 GMT -5 melmaria said:

Jan 31, 2013 15:47:58 GMT -5 @totsintosa said:

You should definitely waive into DC (or VA) and drop Wisconsin once groomy relocates. There is no need to be paying almost $500/year to WI if there's almost no chance you'll be back.  Especially since it will always be coming out of your own pocket as long as you're with the govt.

As someone who is barred in both VA and DC, I would choose DC because they only have a one-time CLE requirement (the mandatory ethics class), and VA requires 12 CLE hours a year.

This x 1,000,000.  The VA CLE requirement is a pain, especially because they just amended it to require at least 4 hours of live classes a year (whereas before you could do all of it via WestLegalEd and things like that). 

You might find that DC offers you better reciprocity, should you and HarpyGroom ever move again.  Also, Virginia won't let you waive in unless you have practiced for five years IN THE STATE IN WHICH YOU ARE BARRED.  So if you took the bar in WI, practiced there 3 years, and then practiced in DC for 2, you wouldn't qualify for waived admission into VA.  (I just learned about this special quirk and am livid -- a lot of states only grant recprocity on the same terms as your home state, and as a fed who is licensed in VA but practices in DC, this is bad news bears for me waiving into another state one day in the future.)

[Susie]

oh wow, that is brutal about VA. I didn't realize that.

VA is one of the states I'd consider moving to, although VA & NY do have reciprocity (and I'll be barred in NY for 5 years this spring; Calvin's already past that point). So if we wanted to move to VA, we'd be fine without doing the DC runaround.

[simpsongal]

Another VA lawyer chiming - CLE is such a pain. Not only is there a live requirement but there's a 2 hour ethics requirement and nothing but preapproved Lawline-type classes (read: $$$) seem to qualify.

I'm the only one in my office that has strict CLE requirements Maryland is easy too.

ETA:  Generally, if you end up working for the government, you can be barred in any state.

[Deleted]

I forget that a lot of states don't have strict CLE. Ours is 30 hours of CLE every two years, three of which have to be ethics/professional responsibility.

Similarly, MN had 45 every three years, with ethics and something called Elimination of Bias.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I would choose D.C. or MD over VA because of the CLE issue. I have no reason to actually want to be barred in VA.

VA's CLE is still less than WI's. We have to do 30 credits every 2 years, 3 of which must be ethics. And the bar dues are through the friggin' roof.

[Susie]

Jan 31, 2013 16:31:47 GMT -5 simpsongal said:

ETA:  Generally, if you end up working for the government, you can be barred in any state.

Alas, not in Calvin's case.  He is a prosecutor.

[Deleted]

NY has reciprocity with a ton of states. I'm not understanding why this is a concern, or how having DC would benefit you in any way.

juristech.com/chart.html

[Susie]

Jan 31, 2013 16:51:10 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

NY has reciprocity with a ton of states. I'm not understanding why this is a concern, or how having DC would benefit you in any way.

juristech.com/chart.html

I've seen that chart.  NY does have reciprocity with a lot of states, but a lot of them aren't places we'd think of moving.  Alaska, Wyoming, Utah, etc.  Reciprocity with mid-Atlantic states is kind of spotty.  DC generally has better reciprocity with the states we'd want to live in.

I am not that concerned for myself, because odds of me having to get barred in another state are slim.  But Calvin really does not want to take a bar exam again, and if we moved out of state, he would absolutely have to be barred where ever we go. 

It didn't seem that outrageous a thing to at least gather info on.

[biscoffcookies]

Jan 31, 2013 16:36:40 GMT -5 Susie said:

Jan 31, 2013 16:31:47 GMT -5 simpsongal said:

ETA:  Generally, if you end up working for the government, you can be barred in any state.

Alas, not in Calvin's case.  He is a prosecutor.

True.  Civil AUSAs also sometimes are required to be barred in the state in which they practice (although sometimes they will hire you and just ask you to become barred in the state ASAP). 

ETA: Prosecutors in the Criminal Division of Main Justice in DC do not have to be part of the DC Bar, though, nor do the people who do criminal work in other components (e.g. criminal Civil Rights, criminal Environmental and Natural Resources cases). 

[ESF]

I'm one of the few people that actually took the DC bar, so I can't speak to what it's like waiving in, but I will say that the character & fitness application was a bigger pain in the ass than it was in California. But bar dues are just $250ish a year, which I pay myself. I have no plans to move, but now that I've been a member for 5 years, and can use it waive in to every single state that I'd ever consider moving to, it's completely worth it to me to pay that money.

The dues averages out to $20 a month. That is worth it to me. It's like an insurance policy on my career. I might never need it, but I like knowing that (1) if I had to move some day, my bar admission will not be an issue when looking for jobs, and (2) that it might someday create opportunities for me that I wouldn't have with my less transferable CA license.

And no CLEs other than that stupid one day ethics class.

[Susie]

Jan 31, 2013 17:10:43 GMT -5 ESF said:

I'm one of the few people that actually took the DC bar, so I can't speak to what it's like waiving in, but I will say that the character & fitness application was a bigger pain in the ass than it was in California. But bar dues are just $250ish a year, which I pay myself. I have no plans to move, but now that I've been a member for 5 years, and can use it waive in to every single state that I'd ever consider moving to, it's completely worth it to me to pay that money.

The dues averages out to $20 a month. That is worth it to me. It's like an insurance policy on my career. I might never need it, but I like knowing that (1) if I had to move some day, my bar admission will not be an issue when looking for jobs, and (2) that it might someday create opportunities for me that I wouldn't have with my less transferable CA license.

And no CLEs other than that stupid one day ethics class.

That is pretty much how I was looking at it.  We have to decide whether it's worth it to us (x1 if my firm pays for mine, x2 if not), but I definitely see the value to it.

I have long joked with Calvin that if one of my clients in particular grew large enough to employ an IP counsel, I'd have my resume on their CEO's desk in a heartbeat.  If that particular pipe dream came true, we'd likely be moving to a state that does not have reciprocity with NY.  Whether that string of maybes is worth anything, well, always a question.