s/o SuperBowl sex trafficking: survivor speaks

[druidprincess]

Wow.  Just wow.

www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2013/02/former_sex_trafficking_victim.html#incart_m-rpt-2

Amid the parties and fun of Super Bowl 2013,
authorities say, there is a dark underworld of girls and women being
forced into the sex trade. Sitting in the festive lobby of a New Orleans
hotel, festooned with San Francisco 49ers and Baltimore Ravens
decorations, Clemmie Greenlee, a former victim of sex trafficking from
Nashville, recalled being brought to cities around the South to
prostitute for those attending such large-scale events.

For Greenlee's pimps, the influx of people provided a massive money-making opportunity. 

"When
they come to these kinds of events, the first thing you're told is how
many you're gonna perform a day," she said Friday. "You've got to go
through 25 men a day, or you're going through 50 of them. When they give
you that number, you better make that number."

Having been
abducted and gang-raped by her captors at age 12, Greenlee said, she was
one of about eight girls controlled by a ring of pimps, men who
injected them with heroin and, at times, kept them handcuffed to beds.
For trying to run away, she was once stabbed in the back.

Now
53, Greenlee works at Eden House in Uptown New Orleans, the first
shelter for sex-trafficking victims in Louisiana; the center opened in
October 2012.

"If you don't make that number (of sex customers),
you're going to dearly, dearly, severely pay for it," Greenlee said. "I
mean with beatings, I mean with over and over rapings. With just
straight torture. The worst torture they put on you is when they make
you watch the other girl get tortured because of your mistake."

Sex and Super Bowls

In
the past year, authorities in Louisiana have been working to raise
awareness about the rampant sex trafficking that has historically
accompanied the Super Bowl. While there is a widespread perception that
human trafficking is a problem only in foreign countries, data from the
U.S. Department of Justice show the average American prostitute begins
working between the ages of 12 and 14.

Established in 2006,
the Louisiana Human Trafficking Task Force, comprised of federal, state
and local law enforcement agencies, plus faith-based and nongovernmental
organizations, has been meeting regularly to try to increase
trafficking arrests and rescue the victims.

As a tourist
destination, New Orleans attracts sex workers year-round, said Bryan
Cox, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security in New
Orleans. But many of those young women are not here by choice. So, in
the weeks leading up to the Super Bowl, both outreach and undercover
efforts have ramped up. 

Those efforts have paid off to some degree already. As of Thursday, at least eight men had been booked with sex trafficking and five female victims had been rescued
from their clutches, Cox said, noting that such cases are investigated
jointly by the New Orleans Police Department, State Police, the
Department of Homeland Security and the FBI, among others.

Two of
the women, ages 21 and 24, were brought to Covenant House, a homeless
shelter for young people at the edge of the French Quarter, according to
executive director James Kelly. After taking a shower and spending the
night, however, the women left without accepting the services Kelly and
others were trying to offer them.

"We
believe they went back to turning tricks," Kelly said. "We did our best
to try to care for them and try to get them to stay, but they were 21
and 24, and there was no way we could force them to stay, and neither
could the FBI."

You've got to go through 25 men a day, or you're going through 50 of them." -- Clemmie Greenlee

Such
behavior is common, Greenlee said, noting that she had repeatedly
returned to her captors after stays in the hospital or jail, mainly out
of fear. She said many times, the women are brainwashed; they believe
they have no other options, no future to pursue.

"They're
terrified," she said. "You can say you're going to save us, you can say
we don't have to worry about the pimps no more. We already know what
power they have shown us. So either you come back to them, or you find
out two days later they either got your grandmother or they just broke
your little baby's arm. 

"There's no such thing as we want to
go back to these guys," she said. "We do not feel that no one -- not
even the law -- can protect us, and we do not want to die. I'd rather
live in that misery and pain than to die."

Messages on bars of soap

Aside
from police sting operations, advocacy groups and local police agencies
have been trying to combat the problem by handing out pamphlets to
local hotel concierges, bartenders and club bouncers, asking them to be
on the lookout for women who appear fearful and show signs of being
controlled by the men they're with. One of the signs a woman is being
trafficked is that she is not allowed to speak for herself, advocates
say.

Some groups have been handing out to hotels bars of soap
that have a sex trafficking hotline phone number on them, hoping that
women who are desperate to escape will see the number on the soap bar
and take a chance on a phone call that could save them. Other groups
have been providing strip clubs with posters that urge people to call in
tips.

For Greenlee, her chance at a turnaround came from a
similar help card in Nashville. Having run away from her captors in her
30s, she said, they did not chase after her because she had "aged out."
Living in an abandoned house in Nashville, shooting heroin with other
junkies and prostituting herself, she had lost all hope of a normal
life. 

But one woman, a former sex worker who knew Greenlee
and had graduated from Magdalene House, a safe house program in
Nashville -- the philosophy of which Eden House was based on -- visited
Greenlee almost weekly. She would leave little cards with the Magdalene
House telephone number on them. But having given up, Greenlee shunned
the woman and her cards. 

After about five months of cards
piling up, one day Greenlee woke up and realized she needed to take the
chance. She was 42 years old. "I went to the phone and I pulled out some
of them 99 pieces of paper that girl had left.

"The one thing
I had in my head was, 'If I learn how to live and heal, I can get back
and get those girls. I can go back and tell people what they do to us,'"
she said. "I'm not ashamed of what done happened to me. I don't care if
I never get a husband. It just don't make no sense that we had to go
through this."

"It's not as easy as saying, 'Call this number, escape,'" said Kara Van
De Carr, executive director of Eden House. "But women who have hit rock
bottom and realize they're going to die in that lifestyle will try
anything to get out."

Authorities urge those who suspect
trafficking to contact local police or the Department of Homeland
Security at 1.866.347.2423. The National Human Trafficking Resource
Center also staffs a toll-free 24-hour hotline at 888-373-7888.

[foundmylazybum]

I've heard this is a huge problem at World Cup soccer events. I'm kind of not surprised to hear about it around the Super Bowl either.

[druidprincess]

Feb 2, 2013 11:35:32 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

I've heard this is a huge problem at World Cup soccer events. I'm kind of not surprised to hear about it around the Super Bowl either.

Neither am I, but this year I'm far more awakened to it due to these stories. 

[foundmylazybum]

Feb 2, 2013 11:37:30 GMT -5 druidprincess said:

Feb 2, 2013 11:35:32 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

I've heard this is a huge problem at World Cup soccer events. I'm kind of not surprised to hear about it around the Super Bowl either.

Neither am I, but this year I'm far more awakened to it due to these stories. 

It makes me mad that these events are such dude events...and  dudes can't seem to go to a sporting event without having some sort of celebratory sex...and so *poof!* Up springs the mobile sex trade--full of trafficking, drugs and kidnapping.

[IIOY]

Jesus, this is so disturbing.

[eclaires]

I have a question that relates to some of our recent discussions about sex workers. If the average age someone starts as a prostitute is at 12 or 14, how does that play into the idea that sex workers want to do this job? I can accept that some want to but do the workers who want to do it that we've seen discussed here start around that age or as legal adults or a mix? Because I have a hard time getting behind the idea that someone who starts this at age 12 really is making a choice. I guess my question is whether the things arbor has brought up recently control for the age people start.

[EloiseWeenie]

Feb 2, 2013 11:42:00 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

12 years old? 50 men a day?!

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 11:47:30 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I have a question that relates to some of our recent discussions about sex workers. If the average age someone starts as a prostitute is at 12 or 14, how does that play into the idea that sex workers want to do this job? I can accept that some want to but do the workers who want to do it that we've seen discussed here start around that age or as legal adults or a mix? Because I have a hard time getting behind the idea that someone who starts this at age 12 really is making a choice. I guess my question is whether the things arbor has brought up recently control for the age people start.

Please read this:

Around the world, selling sex is as inflammatory an issue as abortion. It’s just as divisive, too—particularly among feminists and in the global human rights community.

 

At the 2012 AWID Forum—the largest women’s rights gathering in the world—sex workers’ rights took center stage. Panel discussions and plenary sessions featured sex workers from Burma, Thailand and Cambodia, along with myriad organizations—including several AJWS grantees—that protect sex workers from human rights violations. One grantee offered a clever metaphor to capture how sex work is relatively alien to women’s rights conversations. “Imagine you go to a restaurant with a friend,” she said. “You order beef. But your friend explains she is vegetarian, so she orders a plate of rice and vegetables. You look at her plate and think to yourself, ‘This is a bit strange; a little different.’ But it’s a choice on the menu. And it’s a choice she made herself, just like any other choice. That’s sex work—a choice.”

People who are engaged in the sex work debate generally fall into two camps: 1) Those who understand sex work as a labor rights issue and want to decriminalize prostitution; 2) Those who view selling sex as an exploitative trap and, therefore, call for intensified criminalization and government sanctions. Ultimately, the debate is animated by two core questions: How much choice, agency and consent do sex workers have in their lives and in their work? How do policymakers and activists respond to actual or perceived violence?

 

Questions aside, I’m struck by how loaded the language is in this debate. Sex slavery, sex trafficking, sex trade, sex work, sexual commerce—there’s a lot to unpack. It’s similar to the feminist debate about pornography in which “abolitionist feminists” often describe pornography as “rape on paper”—a sensationalized charge that sometimes reflects reality and sometimes doesn’t.

I’m also struck by how sex trafficking is increasingly conflated with sex work. Clearly, the issues are different: Sex trafficking refers to forced migration of human beings—often minors—for sexual exploitation and coercive labor. Sex work refers to people—women, men and transgender individuals—who sell sex to earn a living. Sex work is work and, more often than not, it’s a job that one chooses in order to support his or her family.

 

But policy makers continue to overlook this distinction and, in doing so, infringe upon sex workers’ rights and fundamental human rights. For example, in Cambodia, the 2008 Law on Suppression of Human Trafficking and Sexual Exploitation and the severe stigma attached to doing adult sex work, have made it almost impossible for sex workers to access justice, healthcare and social security systems. The law has given rise to police raids on brothels where sex workers are “rescued” against their will. They are often retrained for jobs in low-wage garment factories and/or repatriated into their villages without access to the income they need to survive. “Rescue” by the police frequently exposes sex workers to more dangerous conditions in so-called rehabilitation centers. As one of our grantees put it, “What do you expect when a sex worker is ‘rescued’ by the most oppressive arm of the state?”

In a sex workers’ union office in Phnom Penh, a banner pinned to the wall reads, “Don’t talk to me about sewing machines. Talk to me about workers’ rights”—a clear message that interventionists need to rethink their approach.

 

A similar situation exists in Thailand where raids and “rescue operations” happen regularly. AJWS grantee EMPOWER created a Charlie Chaplin-style silent film that quite brilliantly depicts these “rescue operations.”

 

At the end of the day, the distinction between sex trafficking and sex work is clear. But the question remains: which policies will most effectively safeguard trafficking victims without exposing sex workers to harm? It’s simple, really. An AJWS grantee put it quite succinctly: “Nothing about us, without us.” If we intend to develop policies that are fair and just, we must solicit input from sex workers themselve

blogs.ajws.org/blog/2012/06/19/sex-work-is-not-sex-trafficking/

[IIOY]

I'm not sure that answers eclaires' specific question, which is a good one, so much as highlight the general fact that some folks are sex workers by choice rather than by coercion.

[eclaires]

Ok, I see the distinction but the article refers to prostitution's average age which is why I asked about that. I thought the stat from the article was referencing prostitution specifically, not sex trafficking. It says the Department of Justine's stat is that prostitution starts at 12-14 on average. Does that make sense what I'm asking? I'm on my phone so I apologize if I'm not making sense.

[druidprincess]

Feb 2, 2013 12:10:47 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I'm not sure that answers eclaires' specific question, which is a good one, so much as highlight the general fact that some folks are sex workers by choice rather than by coercion.

I agree.  So a 12 year old could likely be qualified as being engaged in sex trafficking, but at what point in her age would that cross over to her being a sex worker if she is choosing to continue in it?  And how much of that correlates to her feeling, as the OP pointed out, she has no other choice or recourse for her life?  Better to have sex than to be dead?

[IIOY]

Feb 2, 2013 12:15:15 GMT -5 druidprincess said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:10:47 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I'm not sure that answers eclaires' specific question, which is a good one, so much as highlight the general fact that some folks are sex workers by choice rather than by coercion.

I agree.  So a 12 year old could likely be qualified as being engaged in sex trafficking, but at what point in her age would that cross over to her being a sex worker if she is choosing to continue in it?  And how much of that correlates to her feeling, as the OP pointed out, she has no other choice or recourse for her life?  Better to have sex than to be dead?

All things considered, I think this could be a very difficult distinction to make.

[arborgold]

That's because, as I've tried to point out numerous times, the US DOJ is WAY behind the times when it comes to talking about sex work. That article conflates trafficking and sex work, and makes no attempt to distinguish between the two.

[foundmylazybum]

This is off the topic but I'm curious to know how many sex workers experienced some sort of trauma in their past.

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:10:47 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I'm not sure that answers eclaires' specific question, which is a good one, so much as highlight the general fact that some folks are sex workers by choice rather than by coercion.

I'm intrigued that that's what you got out of that article. The point of that article is that sex work and sex trafficking are NOT the same, and should not be treated as such.

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:19:29 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

This is off the topic but I'm curious to know how many sex workers experienced some sort of trauma in their past.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but if you're generally curious, I'd suggest doing some reading on the topic (I'll try and find some newer research articles for you), or talking to actual sex workers.

This question comes up a lot, and it's really just another way to stigmatize sex work; it basically indicates the idea that "no "undamaged" woman would ever CHOOSE sex work as a career" - which is simply false.

[foundmylazybum]

Feb 2, 2013 12:20:17 GMT -5 arborgold said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:10:47 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I'm not sure that answers eclaires' specific question, which is a good one, so much as highlight the general fact that some folks are sex workers by choice rather than by coercion.

I'm intrigued that that's what you got out of that article. The point of that article is that sex work and sex trafficking are NOT the same, and should not be treated as such.

::slowly raises hand:::

I got the same thing as IIOY....and it didn't answer the question...

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:22:50 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:20:17 GMT -5 arborgold said:

I'm intrigued that that's what you got out of that article. The point of that article is that sex work and sex trafficking are NOT the same, and should not be treated as such.

::slowly raises hand:::

I got the same thing as IIOY....and it didn't answer the question...

How, given this paragraph, did you two get anything else?

I’m also struck by how sex trafficking is increasingly conflated with sex work. Clearly, the issues are different: Sex trafficking refers to forced migration of human beings—often minors—for sexual exploitation and coercive labor. Sex work refers to people—women, men and transgender individuals—who sell sex to earn a living. Sex work is work and, more often than not, it’s a job that one chooses in order to support his or her family.

[eclaires]

So the answer to my question is that that particular stat about age is incorrect because the DoJ is behind the times? And/or that the prostitutes they see at the age of 12-14 (making that the average age people start as prostitutes) are actually in sex trafficking and not sex work? Even if they aren't part of some child sex trafficking ring or group? Or is the assumption that no one underage is involved in sex work and are automatically being trafficked?

I'm not trying to be stupid here; I'm trying to understand how choice plays into this if people start selling sex at a young age and if they do, is that controlled for when you talk about sex workers choosing it as a career. Maybe I'm just not making sense.

[IIOY]

OK, so this is a semantics issue.* Let me then rephrase: this article tells us that some folks are sex workers and some folks are trafficked. I think we all understand this, and IMO it is not responsive to eclaires' specific question and druid's follow-up about children forced into trafficking who may later on "choose" to become sex workers. Query how much of a "choice" is actually involved.

ETA: or I could have waited for eclaires to post and just dittoed her.

*ETA2: I'm not trying to be glib with this. I used "sex worker" interchangeably when I actually meant to distinguish workers from those who are trafficked.

[druidprincess]

And also, while I get that not every woman who elects to be a sex worker has a damaged past, just saying that doesn't mean some aren't damaged and thus persist in sex work. Simply asserting (probably accurately) that sex work doesn't always originate from sex damage doesn't mean we should just gloss that over and move on from the point of the OP: there is shady sex shit going on where women and young girls are being trafficked against their will for sex.

Fine, the DoJ sucks. Sex workers unite and should have their rights. But what about the ones who are going to be sex enslaved tomorrow?

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:29:35 GMT -5 eclaires said:

So the answer to my question is that that particular stat about age is incorrect because the DoJ is behind the times? And/or that the prostitutes they see at the age of 12-14 (making that the average age people start as prostitutes) are actually in sex trafficking and not sex work? Even if they aren't part of some child sex trafficking ring or group? Or is the assumption that no one underage is involved in sex work and are automatically being trafficked?

I'm not trying to be stupid here; I'm trying to understand how choice plays into this if people start selling sex at a young age and if they do, is that controlled for when you talk about sex workers choosing it as a career. Maybe I'm just not making sense.

My point is that the DOJ shouldn't have been talking about prostitution in an article about sex trafficking. 

There's actually some new research coming out about underage sex workers (NOT trafficked) in NY, but the authors are reticent to release details until they've fully evaluated anything. What they HAVE said, is that the vast majority of these children are not being controlled by pimps, and are CHOOSING to engage in sex work.

Again, the data that the DOJ has actually IS behind the times, because it's only within, oh, I don't know, maybe the last 5 years or so? - that researchers have started researching WITH sex workers, instead of performing research ON them.

It's frustrating to not have hard data, but what limited new data we have indicates that what we've known about sex work in the past is about to be shattered.

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:36:41 GMT -5 druidprincess said:

And also, while I get that not every woman who elects to be a sex worker has a damaged past, just saying that doesn't mean some aren't damaged and thus persist in sex work. Simply asserting (probably accurately) that sex work doesn't always originate from sex damage doesn't mean we should just gloss that over and move on from the point of the OP: there is shady sex shit going on where women and young girls are being trafficked against their will for sex.

Fine, the DoJ sucks. Sex workers unite and should have their rights. But what about the ones who are going to be sex enslaved tomorrow?

I never said that no one was damaged. I said the assumption that everyone is damaged is flawed and fucked up and continues the stigmatization of sex work. Of COURSE sex workers should be given help - and if they weren't so fucking stigmatized, perhaps they'd be able to get more of it.

Also, ::headdesk::  OF COURSE SEX TRAFFICKING IS BAD. We should all work to end sex trafficking. BUT because those being trafficked AND those engaging in sex work are both engaged in similar activities, we need to make sure that while were working to help those being trafficked, we aren't hurting sex workers.

I was simply responding to eclaire's question as to how it relates to sex work. And my point is that IT DOESN'T. Sex trafficking =/= sex work.

[IIOY]

Feb 2, 2013 12:38:09 GMT -5 arborgold said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:29:35 GMT -5 eclaires said:

So the answer to my question is that that particular stat about age is incorrect because the DoJ is behind the times? And/or that the prostitutes they see at the age of 12-14 (making that the average age people start as prostitutes) are actually in sex trafficking and not sex work? Even if they aren't part of some child sex trafficking ring or group? Or is the assumption that no one underage is involved in sex work and are automatically being trafficked?

I'm not trying to be stupid here; I'm trying to understand how choice plays into this if people start selling sex at a young age and if they do, is that controlled for when you talk about sex workers choosing it as a career. Maybe I'm just not making sense.

What they HAVE said, is that the vast majority of these children are not being controlled by pimps, and are CHOOSING to engage in sex work.

And with this I probably need to exit this thread.

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:34:26 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:25:33 GMT -5 arborgold said:

How, given this paragraph, did you two get anything else?

I get your point.  I also get eclaires's point: how is it choice if the people making the choice have never known anything else?

If you choose to start working in a vet's office when you're 12 or 14, and that's all you're interested in because you love animals, how do we know that, when you become a vet as an adult, that you really CHOSE to be a vet, because you started doing it so young?

Fill in the job with another job, and you can see how ridiculous it starts to sound.

Yes, we should ALWAYS be vigilant to make sure the women and men are actually agents of their own lives when it comes to choosing to engage in sex work, but questions like this are another way it's stigmatized.

[foundmylazybum]

Feb 2, 2013 12:41:12 GMT -5 arborgold said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:36:41 GMT -5 druidprincess said:

And also, while I get that not every woman who elects to be a sex worker has a damaged past, just saying that doesn't mean some aren't damaged and thus persist in sex work. Simply asserting (probably accurately) that sex work doesn't always originate from sex damage doesn't mean we should just gloss that over and move on from the point of the OP: there is shady sex shit going on where women and young girls are being trafficked against their will for sex.

Fine, the DoJ sucks. Sex workers unite and should have their rights. But what about the ones who are going to be sex enslaved tomorrow?

I never said that no one was damaged. I said the assumption that everyone is damaged is flawed and fucked up and continues the stigmatization of sex work.

Hold the fucking phone. Let's just clear it up right now that I did not say that either!

Goddamn!

[arborgold]

New Research Demolishes the Stereotype of the Underage Sex Worker

To calculate their population estimate, the John Jay team first culled the interview subjects who didn't fit the study's criteria but had been included for the potential referrals they could generate. The next step was to tally the number of times the remaining 249 subjects had been arrested for prostitution and compare that to the total number of juvenile prostitution arrests in state law-enforcement records. Using a mathematical algorithm often employed in biological and social-science studies, Ric Curtis and his crew were able to estimate that 3,946 youths were hooking in New York.

David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, calls the New York study significant, in that it "makes the big [national] numbers that people put out — like a million kids, or 500,000 kids — unlikely."

Researchers Ric Curtis and Meredith Dank induced hundreds of New York's underage sex workers to open up about their "business." Their findings upended the conventional wisdom — and galled narrow-minded advocates.

Curtis and Dank relied upon a method of social networking that was anything but electronic: Interview subjects were given coupons to pass out to peers and collected $10 for each successful referral.

Finkelhor's single caveat: While RDS is efficient in circulating through a broad range of social networks, certain scenarios might elude detection — specifically, foreign children who might be held captive and forbidden to socialize.

Still, says Finkelhor, "I think [the study] highlights important components of the problem that don't get as much attention: that there are males involved and that there are a considerable number of kids who are operating without pimps."

The John Jay study's authors say they were surprised from the start at the number of boys who came forward. In response, Dank pursued new avenues of inquiry — visiting courthouses to interview girls who'd been arrested and canvassing at night with a group whose specialty was street outreach to pimped girls. She and Curtis also pressed their male subjects for leads.

"It turns out that the boys were the more effective recruiter of pimped girls than anybody else," Curtis says. "It's interesting, because this myth that the pimps have such tight control over the girls, that no one can talk to them, is destroyed by the fact that these boys can talk to them and recruit them and bring them to us. Obviously, the pimps couldn't have that much of a stranglehold on them."

The same, of course, might be true of the elusive foreign-born contingent Finkelhor mentions.

Curtis and Dank believe there is, indeed, a foreign sub-population RDS could not reach. But with no data to draw on, it's impossible to gauge whether it's statistically significant or yet another overblown stereotype.

And as the researchers point out, the John Jay study demolished virtually every other stereotype surrounding the underage sex trade.

For the national study, researchers now are hunting for underage hookers in Las Vegas, Dallas, Miami, Chicago, and the San Francisco area, and interviews for an Atlantic City survey are complete.

Curtis is reluctant to divulge any findings while so much work remains to be done, but he does say early returns suggest that the scarcity of pimps revealed by the New York study appears not to be an anomaly.

A final report on the current research is scheduled for completion in mid-2012.

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:46:44 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:43:24 GMT -5 arborgold said:

If you choose to start working in a vet's office when you're 12 or 14, and that's all you're interested in because you love animals, how do we know that, when you become a vet as an adult, that you really CHOSE to be a vet, because you started doing it so young?

Fill in the job with another job, and you can see how ridiculous it starts to sound.

This isn't working for me.  A 12 or 14 year old knows if they love animals and canmake the choice consciously.  A 12 or 14 year old does not know if she loves sex and is not making the choice consciously.

A 12 or 14 year old working in a vet office is not illegal or child abuse.

A 12 or 14 year old having sex with an adult is illegal and is considered child abuse.

A 12 or 14 year old cannot consent to sex legally, so they can't legally "decide" if they like it enough to pursue it.

Because we've decided that kids aren't sexual beings? Even though rates of teen pregnancy are sky high? Twelve and 14 year old kids ARE having sex, some of them LOTS of it. And, yes, they are making a conscious choice. Whether or not we agree with that choice, or whether or not we think it's a good choice for them, or whether or not it's a legal choice doesn't change the fact that they've made the decision that they would like to engage it sex work to support themselves. I don't give a shit whether or not they can "legally" consent to sex enough to become an "illegal" prostitute. That doesn't change whether or not they WANT to do it.

ETA: FWIW, I'm uncomfortable with underage sex workers, because I believe being educated can help sex workers negotiate better working conditions for themselves, and will help them with other life skills - NOT because I believe that underage sex workers are incapable of consciously deciding that they like sex enough to want to earn a living from it.

[arborgold]

Feb 2, 2013 12:47:29 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Feb 2, 2013 12:41:12 GMT -5 arborgold said:

I never said that no one was damaged. I said the assumption that everyone is damaged is flawed and fucked up and continues the stigmatization of sex work.

Hold the fucking phone. Let's just clear it up right now that I did not say that either!

Goddamn!

FMLB, I don't believe that you think that (and I think you're quoting my reply to druid right there). 

My point is that there IS an assumption (as evidenced from society, and even from comments on this board) that sex workers are all deviants, or damaged.  And I want to make sure that THAT'S the point we focus on.  Because everyone knows that everyone wants to help those individuals who have been hurt, but to assume everyone is hurt stigmatizes the work and makes conditions more dangerous for everyone.

[eclaires]

Okay, thanks for answering my question. I guess my concern with sex work (minus my own views on children having sex which I am sure makes me biased) is that if you start that at 12-14 you are typically talking about a time period when children are going through a lot of changes, including hormonal changes that really do influence their behavior with regards to sex that isn't necessarily comparable to anything else. And then secondarily how easy or hard it is to get out of sex work and do something new if you decide on that path. I think even if you work at a vet office at 12-14 no one would encourage you to only do that. Do child sex workers still go to school? Do they have other options? And if they don't how does that play into choice? Can a 12-14 year old make major life decisions and have them be categorized as a choice?

To take your vet example say the child's parents are vets and she thinks that's the only option for her. I would be of the opinion it wasn't really a choice for her and she was coerced. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't think 12-14 year old kids can necessarily make choices. Sex work or not. And if they do choose sex work how much of a choice is it really as an adult if you made the decision at 12.

Oh and one more question - how far do you think destigmatizing this should go with regards to underage people? I guess I think they are an at risk group for abuse and other issues so while I can see the arguments for making sex work legal and protected, I don't think underage should be included.