What do *you* think it means to be "feminist?"

[foundmylazybum]

I work with a few women who have said things like this:

"FMLB, we know that YOU are totally the "feminist" around here.."

or (in reference to themselves) "Let me start out by saying..I'm not some feminist crazy..I believe in "equal rights for all."

Both of these times--it was a discussion with other women..

And then...later in the conversation--for whatever reason I have ended up saying "Look, I'm don't want people to think that I'm a wild feminist!"

In the first two comments..I've sort of sat there and given the side-eye...like what exactly does that even mean..I'm not even positive the people speaking know wth they are talking about--except that they are using the term "feminist" in the negative...and then it's causing ME to have to defend myself.


Here's the thing of it: I feel like women---world wide--no matter what race, or culture they are end up being the most discriminated group. We experience more violence, less pay, our voice is often times the one unheard and unaccounted for--so yeah, actually I am pro-women, and I'm kind of surprised when other women aren't--and if that makes me "feminist" then why is that bad? Why don't THEY want to be feminist too?

Is there a piece of this that I'm missing?

Has anyone else experienced this type of thing? What are your thoughts? 

[IIOY]

I really hate that we've reached a point where those of us who consider themselves to be feminists feel the need to qualify ourselves by explaining that we are not one of those feminists.  I am definitely a feminist in the traditional sense - I believe in equal opportunity, rights, safety, etc..  Unfortunately extremists on both sides of the political spectrum have done a bang-up job of making it a dirty word (conservatives with their sexism, leftists with their radical positions).

[heyjude]

What radical feminist positions have made the word feminism dirty?!

I'm a proud feminist. No qualifiers.

[penguingrrl]

To me feminism means men and women have equal rights, equal pay and equal opportunity. It means a woman can walk down the street without fear of harassment or rape or assault. It means that a woman has the right to choose her own destiny and isn't beholden to the wishes of her father or husband or brother and her employer will use sex-blind hiring practices to find the best candidate for the job.

Sadly I sometimes wonder if equality will ever truly be achieved even in the US, forget internationally.

[Deleted]

What do I think it means? Support women's rights and giving them equal opportunities in school, the workplace, government, etc. I also think it means supporting women in general and not trying to tear them down. For example, I think it's a feminist position to support longer parental leaves because this in turn supports women in the workplace. I hate it when some people start complaining that just because *they* are unlikely to participate in such a program, then no one should enjoy it.

But look I'm a SAHM. I've occasionally seen this choice criticized on this board and often in the media as an un-feminist choice and that people like me are "setting women back" because we're not out there going toe to toe with men in corporate America. So for that reason I'm sometimes reluctant to describe myself as a feminist even though I privately think I am because I would not hesitate to describe myself as pro-woman.

[AllieHound]

tomatonation.com/culture-and-criticism/yes-you-are/

Pretty much sums it up for me.

ETA: It's simplistic, and of course there are some connotations to the word that may or may not be legitimate, but I completely hate the notion that you have to *do* something to be a feminist. You have to believe something- that the sexes are equal and should be treatd as such. With that comes the notion that women need to be treatd equally, educated equally, compensated equally. While I *personally* believe that issues surrounding choice, education, work, SAH/WOH, etc. have feminist impacts, so long as you don't think women deserve to be lesser educated or less compensated, it's that simple.

[heyjude]

Feb 3, 2013 11:02:56 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:00:24 GMT -5 heyjude said:

What radical feminist positions have made the word feminism dirty?!

I'm a proud feminist. No qualifiers.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I think things like what arbor posted in the teenage sex workers thread are the radical positions that freak people out with the word "feminist."

Agreed. But as I argued below, I don't think her position is the feminist one. I feel like she is inadvertently fighting for the rights of man to get laid with impunity under the guise of women's rights.

[IIOY]

Feb 3, 2013 11:02:56 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:00:24 GMT -5 heyjude said:

What radical feminist positions have made the word feminism dirty?!

I'm a proud feminist. No qualifiers.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I think things like what arbor posted in the teenage sex workers thread are the radical positions that freak people out with the word "feminist."

:Y:

[eclaires]

I honestly have no problem saying I'm a feminist, because I'm comfortable with what it means to me and if others want to judge or assign beliefs to me that I don't have based on some extreme position, that's their issue. Do I agree with every other feminist? I'm sure I don't. I'm also sure that some people would say I'm not a feminist for some reason or another and I don't care about that either.

I also hope I am raising my son to be a feminist and I truly believe I am setting a good example for my daughter.

[IIOY]

Feb 3, 2013 11:08:50 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:02:56 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I think things like what arbor posted in the teenage sex workers thread are the radical positions that freak people out with the word "feminist."

Agreed. But as I argued below, I don't think her position is the feminist one. I feel like she is inadvertently fighting for the rights of man to get laid with impunity under the guise of women's rights.

I haven't been back to that thread recently, but when you have self-described feminists embracing such issues, it is problematic.  I agree with you that it's actually a very sexist policy under the guise of feminism.

[heyjude]

Feb 3, 2013 11:11:09 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:08:50 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Agreed. But as I argued below, I don't think her position is the feminist one. I feel like she is inadvertently fighting for the rights of man to get laid with impunity under the guise of women's rights.

I haven't been back to that thread recently, but when you have self-described feminists embracing such issues, it is problematic.  I agree with you that it's actually a very sexist policy under the guise of feminism.

I believe she is the only person, woman, and feminist in that thread pushing an extreme approach.

[IIOY]

Feb 3, 2013 11:13:36 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:11:09 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I haven't been back to that thread recently, but when you have self-described feminists embracing such issues, it is problematic.  I agree with you that it's actually a very sexist policy under the guise of feminism.

I believe she is the only person, woman, and feminist in that thread pushing an extreme approach.

Yet it's pretty clear from the links she posted that she is not the only person, woman, or feminist pushing that line of thought generally. 

[Deleted]

I think it means, at its core, that you support women having the same opportunities as men - to earn the same money for the same job, to have the opportunity to GET the same job as men, and so on. I think it obviously is about way more than the workplace but I think that is the easiest way sometimes to phrase it.

I hate that the term has become something negative. I also hate that it is something not every person considers themselves. I have a good friend who will often say "But I'm a feminist so XYZ." Well IMO everyone should agree with her XYZ, so I am not sure why every person isn't a feminist.

I agree with what eclaires said that not every feminist is going to agree with each other. On this board we see a wide spectrum of feminism. But I think at its core we do agree, its just about how to get the end result.

But I am a feminist and I tell people this.

[heyjude]

Feb 3, 2013 11:17:09 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:13:36 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I believe she is the only person, woman, and feminist in that thread pushing an extreme approach.

Yet it's pretty clear from the links she posted that she is not the only person, woman, or feminist pushing that line of thought generally. 

Good point.

[foundmylazybum]

Feb 3, 2013 11:11:07 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I honestly have no problem saying I'm a feminist, because I'm comfortable with what it means to me and if others want to judge or assign beliefs to me that I don't have based on some extreme position, that's their issue. Do I agree with every other feminist? I'm sure I don't. I'm also sure that some people would say I'm not a feminist for some reason or another and I don't care about that either.

I also hope I am raising my son to be a feminist and I truly believe I am setting a good example for my daughter.

I agree...I think though that in both the above cases and in the future I'm probably going to politely ask people what they are talking about. They obviously 1. Have some idea of what 'feminism' means--and 2. they are trying to ascribe that to ME.

I'm also comfortable with my idea of feminism, and it IS in the middle ground of the definition--so I think I have the right to hear what they are thinking and also clear up any misconceptions if they exist.


Although--the teeny..tiny radical in me wants to say.."Yeah! I AM a feminist! WHY aren't YOU! So what I hear you saying is you AREN'T for the equal rights of men AND women!?" :::Insert silence and side eye here:::

[eclaires]

Feb 3, 2013 11:19:11 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Feb 3, 2013 11:11:07 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I honestly have no problem saying I'm a feminist, because I'm comfortable with what it means to me and if others want to judge or assign beliefs to me that I don't have based on some extreme position, that's their issue. Do I agree with every other feminist? I'm sure I don't. I'm also sure that some people would say I'm not a feminist for some reason or another and I don't care about that either.

I also hope I am raising my son to be a feminist and I truly believe I am setting a good example for my daughter.

I agree...I think though that in both the above cases and in the future I'm probably going to politely ask people what they are talking about. They obviously 1. Have some idea of what 'feminism' means--and 2. they are trying to ascribe that to ME.

I'm also comfortable with my idea of feminism, and it IS in the middle ground of the definition--so I think I have the right to hear what they are thinking and also clear up any misconceptions if they exist.


Although--the teeny..tiny radical in me wants to say.."Yeah! I AM a feminist! WHY aren't YOU! So what I hear you saying is you AREN'T for the equal rights of men AND women!?" :::Insert silence and side eye here:::

DO IT!

It's delicious to make people uncomfortable like that.

Or be nice and do your first response.  Or both depending on who the person is.  My mom tends towards anti-feminist bullshit and I always am borderline rude and call her out on it, but she deserves it, IMO.    She gets over my snark quickly, thankfully.

I tend to get side eye from both sides at times because I SAH.  Honestly, even though I don't work, my husband and I split everything very equally, he respects my opinion and seeks it out, we have intelligent discussions, etc.  I think, for our kids, we really model equality well, so I'm not too worried about the impact of my job status on their views of women and feminism.  I think we are doing a really good job showing them through our actions that men and women are equal and equally capable.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Someone else's definition of a feminist doesn't define me any more so than someone else's definition of a Christian defines me. I know I'm a feminist because I believe in equality. If you want to think I'm not one because I don't hate men? That's not my problem. I know I'm a Christian. You want to think I'm not one because I believe in gay marriage and I drink and swear? Again, not my problem.

[heyjude]

Feb 3, 2013 12:12:38 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

Someone else's definition of a feminist doesn't define me any more so than someone else's definition of a Christian defines me. I know I'm a feminist because I believe in equality. If you want to think I'm not one because I don't hate men? That's not my problem. I know I'm a Christian. You want to think I'm not one because I believe in gay marriage and I drink and swear? Again, not my problem.

I think this is a very honest and enlightened approach to both identifiers.

[foundmylazybum]

Feb 3, 2013 12:26:02 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 3, 2013 12:12:38 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

Someone else's definition of a feminist doesn't define me any more so than someone else's definition of a Christian defines me. I know I'm a feminist because I believe in equality. If you want to think I'm not one because I don't hate men? That's not my problem. I know I'm a Christian. You want to think I'm not one because I believe in gay marriage and I drink and swear? Again, not my problem.

I think this is a very honest and enlightened approach to both identifiers.

Yeah. I think I have a pretty good grasp on what my definition of feminism is and what it means to me.

I have no idea what the other women's definition's of feminism is--and yet they are clearly fine with ascribing that definition to ME and other women--and if that's a misguided or misinformed definition...then I suppose where we disagree Lyss is that I do wish to correct those assumptions.

They--or you don't have to change your definition of feminist, Christian--whatever--but don't ascribe your shit on me incorrectly. I actually DO see it as a problem.

[ringstrue]

Feminist has a finite definition. I mean I guess you can always expand on it, but the definition itself is not up for debate. I guess that is the real issue? people thinking they can redefine terms?

I think one of the fastest ways a person could get me to stop hanging out with them is to suggest feminism is a bad thing.

[elleblue]

Feb 3, 2013 11:15:45 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

Feminism is also about having the agency as a woman to choose your own path without having society tell you what it is and must be.

I'll go one further and say that this should apply to men as well (e.g. men who would prefer to be say at home dads, etc.). People should be able to make life choices without societal pressure or discrimination, regardless of gender/race/sexual orientation.

I will admit that I used to have issue with the word feminist but not anymore. 

[arborgold]

Where to begin, where to begin.

First, feminism has two core tenets:

(1) Believing in equality between men and women
(2) Believing that women should have control over their own lives.

If you believe those two things, you're a feminist.

As to some of the other things in this thread and the other thread. Holyfuckingshitballs, people.

First, ditto BB's response. It is SPOT ON. Women make all sorts of decisions that I feel do not benefit women as a whole, but as long as they get to make those decisions, bully for them. THAT'S what feminism is about.

Second, believing that women (or even ::GASP:: teens!) choose to engage in sex work is NOT the same as believing that NO one is coerced. (Note: coercion is NOT the same as being forced. Anyone being forced into the sex industry is NOT okay. This is where the difference between sex TRAFFICKING and sex WORK becomes really important). The thing is, people are coerced into shitty jobs due to economic circumstances every damn day. Hell, I was stuck in a job where I was being physically, emotionally, verbally, and sexually harassed for MONTHS because I didn't have any other means of economic support. Janitorial positions can suuuuuck. Waitresses, dishwashing, delivery boys/girls. All of these jobs SUCK. They're demanding, labor intensive jobs, generally with shitty working conditions, where people are often abused, but the pay is MUCH MUCH MUCH lower than someone in the sex industry. But I don't hear anyone hear talking about how we should save all of the poor dishwashers in this country. For many sex workers (particularly the ones whose careers are legalized) being a sex worker is infinitely less demanding, is safer, and is more lucrative than any other position they could have.

Why we have this emphasis on sex workers is SOLELY because "we" as a nation, have some weird ass hangups about sex.

If we don't want people to be coerced into jobs, then we should work on making sure people have an education, skills training, and an economic safety net that keeps that from happening.

Even IF we DID have all that, though, there will STILL be people who CHOOSE to work as sex workers because they WANT TO. Even some of these teens WANTED to engage in this work (again, I DON'T support underage sex workers because I believe kids should be in school), because they wanted THINGS (read: they didnt need it to survive). Read the report I mentioned yesterday to hear them talk about it in their own words. Again, sex work is a lucrative field that requires much less time than many other jobs.

Third, I know y'all probably don't want to believe it, but there are lots of men and transgendered persons engaged in sex work, too! About 50% of the underage sex workers in NYC are male or transgendered. If you had bothered to read the research I posted yesterday, you'd probably know that, but I have a feeling most of you didn't. Because, if you had, I'm thinking I wouldn't be seeing some of the ignorant comments I saw in that thread, and am seeing in this thread.

Fourth, there are feminist sex workers. There are feminist sex worker allies. Being a feminist is NOT incompatible with supporting sex workers and supporting the rights of sex workers. And sex work ISN'T just about women, and it isn't just about sexism. Not by a long shot. If you don't believe me, I suggest you visit the conference I mentioned yesterday (or ask to get the materials). And if you're in DC, you can go visit the nice, well-dressed young male sex worker at the U street metro stop - he'll share his views with you quite readily.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

FMLB, I understand wanting to correct people's incorrect assumptions, but I guess my question is, do you think it would matter? What matters to me is what you do with your life, not how you label yourself. So if someone refuses to call herself a feminist but still believes in women making their own choices, it's okay with me.

[foundmylazybum]

Feb 3, 2013 14:27:44 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

FMLB, I understand wanting to correct people's incorrect assumptions, but I guess my question is, do you think it would matter? What matters to me is what you do with your life, not how you label yourself. So if someone refuses to call herself a feminist but still believes in women making their own choices, it's okay with me.

I think it matters in the sense that I suspected (especially in the first example) that what my coworker was *really* trying to label me as was "The man-hating bitch."--and by "Man hating bitch," what she actually meant was--Sue Sue's description "It's doubly bad in that it's not ladylike to demand, to confront, to
insist, to point out wrongdoing. Ladies are supposed to suffer,
sacrifice, NOT put themselves forward. So a woman who does this is not
behaving in the way 'ladies' are supposed to behave AND she's making all
these demands that if successful, would take her out of 'ladyhood'
completely by gaining rights for herself."

Because--quite frankly in our workplace I'm the woman who will confront, insist, point out wrongdoing or ask about change..and it does make me a little sad to think (and know) that the men--were looked at as go getters--and the women who did the same thing.."feminist" (Man hating bitches?)

So..I think there yeah--it did matter--because she was labeling ME!

In the second instance..I really wasn't sure what my co-worker meant--she was directing the comment at herself and just speaking about feminism in general--so you are correct . However she wants to label herself--go at it girl.

[heyjude]

See, prostitution runs counter to the first tenant of feminism. Prostitution is an inherently unequal arrangement.

[heyjude]

Re. The other "shitty" jobs...

1. You are really insulting waitresses, janitors, and dishwashers here.

2. Janitors and dishwashers are generally necessary positions. The ability for men to freely pay for sex is not necessary.

[arborgold]

Feb 3, 2013 14:57:53 GMT -5 heyjude said:

See, prostitution runs counter to the first tenant of feminism. Prostitution is an inherently unequal arrangement.

Or rather, not.

But I'd be interested to hear why you think so.

[arborgold]

Feb 3, 2013 15:05:45 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Re. The other "shitty" jobs...

1. You are really insulting waitresses, janitors, and dishwashers here.

2. Janitors and dishwashers are generally necessary positions. The ability for men to freely pay for sex is not necessary.

(1) Been two of those, and, trust me, they were incredibly shitty jobs. Being a phone sex operator or a dancer would have been a much better option for me.

(2) There are a billion and one "unnecessary" jobs in this world - why are you so concerned with this one?

[heyjude]

Another reason why prostitution is not pro-woman, how man "johns" are married men? How many prostitutes make vows not to sleep with married men w/out the wife's consent?

[arborgold]

Feb 3, 2013 15:12:46 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Another reason why prostitution is not pro-woman, how man "johns" are married men? How many prostitutes make vows not to sleep with married men w/out the wife's consent?

WTF does this have to do with anything?  Holy hell.