With-holding visitation? will dd

[aeforprivacy]

Long story short I have a 14 year old little girl.  I have been divorced and remarried for several years now.  My daughter really hates seeing her bio dad.  She has asked me - for a couple years now - if she can stop seeing him.  I have made her see him since he is her dad and has that right and quite honestly in my mind all kids hate their parents at some point or another.
Well now she has been seeing a therapist and the therapist is advising me to allow her to stop seeing him.
Important details:
My ex is a drunk but stays sober while she is awake, drinks once she goes to sleep and sleeps off his hangover while she is there until two hours before I pick her up so he can be presentable when I get there
My ex (when awake) bashes his parents, his siblings and me to my daughter making her sad
My ex is clingy and claims my daughter doesn't love him to her every chance he gets.  If she doesn't respond with (what he believes is) 100% sincerity he badgers her until she breaks down and tells him how much she adores him.  He even went so far as calling me to make sure she was being honest

I agree that he sucks but I have been very careful to never speak bad of him - which makes the therapist and my daughter blame me for allowing this to go on so long. 
I hate it myself but any time I have confronted him and told him what he was doing was bad for him and his relationship with my daughter he agrees and then bears down on her harder and tells her to stop telling her mom lies.  She apologizes to him and then is mad at me.

Ugh - what are my rights here?  I know I have to find a lawyer but I feel awful to terminate the father/daughter relationship permenantly.  She will never tell him she doesn't want to see him anymore, she is scared and upset.
Please help - if you have a similar story that would be really helpful.  I am at a loss.
TIA

[ckinla]

If you daughter doesn't want to see him, I don't think she should have to. My BFF had a dad exactly like that – she refused to see him and her little sister continued and he molested her. Not saying that's what's happening at ALL - but if she doesn't feel comfortable there, then get yourself to a lawyer ASAP.

[rex]

Isn't she old enough in terms of custody issues to decide for herself? I remember with my parents when I turned 13 I had the right to decide if and when I wanted to see my mother.

If you need to, it's time to go to court. If she doesn't want to see her dad, she's old enough to decide not to.

[ckinla]

Feb 5, 2013 20:06:57 GMT -5 rex said:

Isn't she old enough in terms of custody issues to decide for herself? I remember with my parents when I turned 13 I had the right to decide if and when I wanted to see my mother.

If you need to, it's time to go to court. If she doesn't want to see her dad, she's old enough to decide not to.

I couldn't make that decision (legally)until I was 16 - I think it depends on the original custody agreement.

[margotmacomber]

I think I was 12 when I went before a judge and told him what I wanted.  She is old enough to make that decision.

[ginger]

Why the MOTHER FUCK would you send your daughter to a DRUNK?

Who cares if he's "only drinks when she's asleep", he's obviously still drunk the next morning...

UGH.

You have the responsibility of protecting your daughter. Genetics does not.

[SKP82]

If you don't want to get a lawyer and make changes, I would think you would have to follow whatever is outlined in your original custody agreement (which you didn't specify) until she is old enough to decide for herself (legally).

If there is nothing legally making you send your daughter to her father's house, I would not make her go if she doesn't want to.

If there was a custody agreement in place, I would pursue legal action to change it.

[Deleted]

I'm sad for your daughter. I can't imagine having to spend time with that man, he sounds miserable and manipulative.
I would listen to what therapist and daughter are saying and start working to get visitation withheld.

[aeforprivacy]

I need to hear this - thank you. I never wanted this but who does? We have a custody agreement that he sees her eow and one night during the week for dinner. I am not sure she is strong enough to tell a judge how she feels at this point.
I NEVER want to send her - It is in the agreement and he is her dad. I am willing to lawyer up. I just am always afraid of making the wrong decision. She is my first baby and I want to protect her but I have no proof of any of her alligations. I worry that she is a teen and exaggerates - but maybe she isn't

[flyintheointment]

In my state, a 14-year-old is old enough to tell a judge what she would prefer w/r/t visitation. 


You have a responsibility to ensure she is able to develop clear boundaries with people, especially her father. Would she be interested in Al Anon?

[cleo29]

What if something happened in the middle of the night and he was unable to either respond or do anything about it?

Seriously, speak to a lawyer and start the process of letting your daughter tell a judge what she wants. What he is doing is absolutely atrocious.

[SKP82]

Given the additional information, I would get a lawyer in order to change the agreement.

If she doesn't want to tell a judge about it, maybe the therapist can on her behalf (with her permission)?

ETA:  Or maybe her therapist can help her work through that and help her be okay with speaking to the judge?

[ginger]

She is; don't underestimate her.

[suzyp]

My parents divorced when I was 10. My Dad got us every other weekend. He had a girlfriend that he lived with, but for some reason did not want to tell us. (He cheated on my Mom so a GF wasn't exactly a surprise). Anyway, it was odd to visit him because we did not go to where he lived, but he would pretend that he lived with these male friends, in a house where he had no clothes, etc. And it was not fun - we were at an age where we had other stuff to do, etc. We complained a lot to my Mom about it and she would tell us that we should go because he is our father, but that she would not force us to. The worst part is that we made her tell him and she would usually use school stuff as an excuse. (The last time this happened, he was drunk and he pulled her onto our porch and started hitting her and only stopped because the four of us heard what was happening and hit and kicked and pulled his hair until he stopped.) After the last time, we absolutely refused to go.

Anyway, he eventually sued to enforce the agreement and all four of us had to take the stand in some "trial" about the visitation. While it was awful and we all burst into tears as soon as the judge asked us the first question, we were all strong enough to tell why we did not want to see him. The judge saw how scared we were of him and only made me and my younger brother call my father once a month and my sisters (who were 16) did not have to have any contact with him. This was in 1987, not exactly when things were dealt with like they are now. So I would definitely take some action, especially if you have her therapist' support.

[aeforprivacy]

I guess I really needed to hear that this is terrible enough to deny complete visitation. I hate second guessing myself all the time when it comes to this. If you think for a minute this is fixable beyond severing ties completely please tell me.
My H thinks we should just terminate and be done with it - I am still waffling since she will never have another father... good, bad or otherwise.

[sparkythelawyer]

Oh. And find a new therapist PRONTO. You have done nothing deserving of "blame" here.

[hisno1girl]

If you stopped sending her over there would her father even care? Would he put up a fight?

I say stop sending her over there and wait to see what he does. Honestly, I think he'll care more about drinking than he will about visiting his daughter. If he raises a fuss about him tell HIM to hire and pay for an attorney and then when you go to court, you'll just tell the judge and anyone else who will listen that he spends part of his visitation time with her in a drunken stupor.

I'm sorry your daughter has to deal with this.

[aeforprivacy]

Feb 5, 2013 20:27:18 GMT -5 suzyp said:

My parents divorced when I was 10. My Dad got us every other weekend. He had a girlfriend that he lived with, but for some reason did not want to tell us. (He cheated on my Mom so a GF wasn't exactly a surprise). Anyway, it was odd to visit him because we did not go to where he lived, but he would pretend that he lived with these male friends, in a house where he had no clothes, etc. And it was not fun - we were at an age where we had other stuff to do, etc. We complained a lot to my Mom about it and she would tell us that we should go because he is our father, but that she would not force us to. The worst part is that we made her tell him and she would usually use school stuff as an excuse. (The last time this happened, he was drunk and he pulled her onto our porch and started hitting her and only stopped because the four of us heard what was happening and hit and kicked and pulled his hair until he stopped.) After the last time, we absolutely refused to go.

Anyway, he eventually sued to enforce the agreement and all four of us had to take the stand in some "trial" about the visitation. While it was awful and we all burst into tears as soon as the judge asked us the first question, we were all strong enough to tell why we did not want to see him. The judge saw how scared we were of him and only made me and my younger brother call my father once a month and my sisters (who were 16) did not have to have any contact with him. This was in 1987, not exactly when things were dealt with like they are now. So I would definitely take some action, especially if you have her therapist' support.

You have no idea how close this hits home. Thank you for being brave enough to share your story

[aeforprivacy]

Feb 5, 2013 20:29:38 GMT -5 hisno1girl said:

If you stopped sending her over there would her father even care? Would he put up a fight?

I say stop sending her over there and wait to see what he does. Honestly, I think he'll care more about drinking than he will about visiting his daughter. If he raises a fuss about him tell HIM to hire and pay for an attorney and then when you go to court, you'll just tell the judge and anyone else who will listen that he spends part of his visitation time with her in a drunken stupor.

I'm sorry your daughter has to deal with this.

He'll care - He'll call. text. be at my house.  He is intense at best

[ginger]

Do you hear yourself?

"Is it fixable".

NO. It's not beyond getting parental rights for him severed.

He is an alcoholic. YOU cannot make him change and you will not use your daughter as a pawn.

I know you know these answers, but BUCK UP buttercup. You are the adult and YOU will fight for your daughter.

Basically, I hold you equally at blame if something happens to her while in his care.

[ginger]

No, you do this right. You go to court.

You do not insight his anger because you are a wimp and hope it all goes away.

It's your job to protect your daughter.

I know I'm being tough, but this isn't just you we're talking about. This is your child and she deserves a mother who protects her.

[aeforprivacy]

Feb 5, 2013 20:27:52 GMT -5 sparkythelawyer said:

Oh. And find a new therapist PRONTO. You have done nothing deserving of "blame" here.

Sprky - you are a lawyer... what do I say when I go there.  I never used a lawyer before.  We settled everything out of court.  Is there any arguments I should make sure to add?  Anything I shouldn't say.  I am very inexperienced at this.

[hopecounts]

Legally you have to send her contact a lawyer and get busy on pursuing a change of visitation.
Be aware that it is extremely unlikely that without abuse or clear endangerment for the court to remove all visitation from a parent. They might reduce it but most judges aren't going to allow a 14 yr old to cut all ties with a parent without serious cause. Best case limited supervised visitation one day a week/EOWE
Don't screwup your chances to change the custody arrangement by ignoring the court order.
Talk to your daughter and explain that if she doesn't want to see her dad you will all have to go to court and she'll have t tell a judge that.
Until then be super careful to follow the court order the last thing you want is a judge finding parental alienation and keeping the status quo or increasing your Ex's time to give him time to improve the relationship.
Also document everything and anything that might go in your favor.

[ginger]

Feb 5, 2013 20:33:04 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Don't feel bad for abiding by the custody agreement; that may end up working in your favor. But you know there's a problem, so I'd get an attorney as soon as humanly possible and have them file something for an immediate stop to the visitation. I'm sure such a thing exists.

Fourteen is an age where she should have a say in her own custody arrangements.

And again -- DO NOT let anyone make you feel bad about this. None of this is your fault, the system is a flawed one, and you're doing the best you can. Really, ginger's post is rubbing me the wrong way in this regard. There is nothing you can do about the past, but there is everything you can do about the future.

Many hugs.

And if you need a sweet concerned reason to do it, listen to lucy.

[SKP82]

If all visitation was withdrawn and he decided to get better, she can change her mind. It's not as though she will NEVER EVER be in contact with her father again. What it means is that it will be on her terms. If he changes and she wants to give him another chance, she can. But she doesn't HAVE to do anything that makes her uncomfortable.

[ECB]

Two thoughts.

1- she's been telling you this for a couple of YEARS. This isn't an off the cuff, upset teen, exaggerating issue.

2- you're concerned she won't talk to the judge. I worry too. Look at her track record - adults don't listen to her/don't let her be honest. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad. I'm saying this because I think it's an issue that needs to be dealt with. Her father badgers her into telling him what he wants to hear no matter what the truth is and her mother makes her keep spending time with a man she doesn't want to be around.

She's learning that what she really feels doesnt matter.

Despite what happens w this specific issue, I think the above needs to be dealt with far past this.

[hisno1girl]

Feb 5, 2013 20:32:30 GMT -5 aeforprivacy said:

Feb 5, 2013 20:29:38 GMT -5 hisno1girl said:

If you stopped sending her over there would her father even care? Would he put up a fight?

I say stop sending her over there and wait to see what he does. Honestly, I think he'll care more about drinking than he will about visiting his daughter. If he raises a fuss about him tell HIM to hire and pay for an attorney and then when you go to court, you'll just tell the judge and anyone else who will listen that he spends part of his visitation time with her in a drunken stupor.

I'm sorry your daughter has to deal with this.

He'll care - He'll call. text. be at my house.  He is intense at best

Okay, then maybe it is time to seek a modification of your visitation. Start by talking to whoever handles your case at the office of child support (Assuming he pays) and tell them what's going on. They should be able to tell you who you can report his behavior to.  If he gets drunk while your DD is over there, tell her to leave and go to a neighbor's house and call you so you can get her.

You should probably also start keeping a paper trail of dates that your DD sees him drunk.  Drinking isn't a problem. I drink in front of my kids.  Passing out and being hungover the next day is a problem. A big one.

[10outof9]

I would talk to a lawyer. If your daughter does not want to see him anymore, you should at least get the opportunity to try and change the visitation agreement. And the way you say he's "intense at best" makes me worried. Do you think a custody battle would make him violent? Has he ever been violent to you or your daughter? These are things you need to talk to a lawyer about. Good luck moving forward.

[aeforprivacy]

Feb 5, 2013 20:34:50 GMT -5 ginger said:

No, you do this right. You go to court.

You do not insight his anger because you are a wimp and hope it all goes away.

It's your job to protect your daughter.

I know I'm being tough, but this isn't just you we're talking about. This is your child and she deserves a mother who protects her.

I know you are coming across as tough to everyone else but I am hearing what you are saying and I know you are right.  I am not such a wimp that I can't be strong for my daughter.  You are right and sometimes the shittiest thing to hear is the truth thanks for that

[SKP82]

Feb 5, 2013 20:33:04 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

 Really, ginger's post is rubbing me the wrong way in this regard. There is nothing you can do about the past, but there is everything you can do about the future.

Ditto.