I have a legal question for the lawyers

[Deleted]

I realize this is not official legal advice, etc.

Sister has a note from a doctor in KS saying that she needs her pets due to depression. I say that a note like that cannot be enough to have a pet anywhere. She said that an apartment has to accept them with their pets even if they have a no pet policy, because she has a doctor's note and they are service animals.

Isn't there a process to be an actual service animal? Is a note like that enough? I'm rolling my eyes pretty hard at her, but she swears it's legal even in CA.

ETA: Her pets are 2 cats and a rabbit.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure that's the correct documentation but yes, they do have to accommodate the a service pet for something like that. I had a friend in college whose complex was required to accept her dog because it was considered a therapy pet for PTSD after she had been raped.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:18:55 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

lol good luck with that, otterama's sister.

That's my attitude as well!

[expatpumpkin]

She's right.

www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

And there's no governing body that grants "service animal status," although an owner can purchase a special ID, vest, etc. to help distinguish the animal.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:19:26 GMT -5 @wonderred said:

I'm not sure that's the correct documentation but yes, they do have to accommodate the a service pet for something like that. I had a friend in college whose complex was required to accept her dog because it was considered a therapy pet for PTSD after she had been raped.

A legit service animal, I get. I'm talking 2 cats and a rabbit...to be called an actual service animal it would have to have received special training and certification, right?

I'm sorry about that happening to your friend

[Deleted]

Two cats and a rabbit, all of them, I think she's definitely pushing it. One service pet, yet.  My friend's pet wasn't specially trained.  It just helped her feel safe and eased her really bad anxiety.  She rarely went anywhere without him for at least two years.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:20:22 GMT -5 expatpumpkin said:

She's right.

www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

And there's no governing body that grants "service animal status," although an owner can purchase a special ID, vest, etc. to help distinguish the animal.

2. Q: What is a service animal?

A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide
dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide
assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this
definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA
regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or
local government.

Service animals perform some of the functions and tasks
that the individual with a disability cannot perform for him or herself.
Guide dogs are one type of service animal, used by some individuals who
are blind. This is the type of service animal with which most people
are familiar. But there are service animals that assist persons with
other kinds of disabilities in their day-to-day activities. Some
examples include:

_ Alerting persons with hearing impairments to sounds.

_ Pulling wheelchairs or carrying and picking up things for persons with mobility impairments.

_ Assisting persons with mobility impairments with balance.

A service animal is not a pet.


Her cats and rabbit do not meet this.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:22:38 GMT -5 @wonderred said:

Two cats and a rabbit, all of them, I think she's definitely pushing it. One service pet, yet.

See, that's what I'm thinking. I'm just super confused that someone could say "well, I'm depressed" and get a doctor's note and then have the "right" to have as many animals of all types that they want and calling it a service animal.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:24:15 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

expat, that's for businesses, not apartment or home rental. Otter, is she actually disabled? (as in, on disability?)

ADA applies to any public place.  An apartment complex would count but not a private rental home.

[expatpumpkin]

I assumed you were talking about a dog.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:24:15 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

expat, that's for businesses, not apartment or home rental. Otter, is she actually disabled? (as in, on disability?)

Nope. Her only need for the animals is depression. Which, dude, I get. I deal with depression, too...to the point of not being able to function on a daily basis. But that's why I use therapy and AD's, not a couple of cats and a rabbit.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:25:15 GMT -5 expatpumpkin said:

I assumed you were talking about a dog.

No...sorry, I should have clarified that.

[berbles]

A friend of mine (in CA) had an apartment complex front office staff tell her to have her doc write her a note that her mini doxy was a therapy dog for her anxiety and they would waive the pet fee. I don't know about getting a non-pet complex to allow pets though.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 17:26:46 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

A service RABBIT? I'm sorry. That rabbit is not helping her with basic needs. Maybe she's trained her cats to bring her pills to her if she cannot get them herself, or dial the phone for her, but there is no such thing as a service rabbit. lol

Those cats aren't trained for anything. Now I'm laughing at a service rabbit.

[litebright]

I don't think there's much of a process at all.

I remember reading a fascinating NYT article about different exotic animals as service animals a few years ago. It gets into the fact that the bar is pretty low for this kind of thing.

www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/magazine/04Creatures-t.html?pagewanted=all

I swear I remember another article where some guy wanted to take his dog with him everywhere and just printed something off a website saying he was a service dog and it was easy-peasy and not really legit. It looks like you can do "online service dog certification" where you check boxes saying that your dog helps you and is well-behaved and then you can pay $250 to get a certificate and vest for the dog.

[StormyDixon]

My two dogs bark so much they raise my anxiety lol

[Deleted]

This is a joke, right?

[elleblue]

Mar 28, 2013 17:26:46 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

A service RABBIT? I'm sorry. That rabbit is not helping her with basic needs. Maybe she's trained her cats to bring her pills to her if she cannot get them herself, or dial the phone for her, but there is no such thing as a service rabbit. lol

When I worked as a tour guide at Disneyland (we were Guest Relations cast members so we also staffed City Hall) some woman tried to convince us that her pink poodle was her service animal. She did have a doctors note, but no official documents? No dice.

[sparkythelawyer]

There is a big difference between a service animan and what it sounds like your sister is doing. BUT, she's welcome to go suing places that won't rent to her and her pets, she's welcome to knock herself out.

[stato]

There is such thing as an Emotional Support Animal. They do not need special training like service animals do, and having an Emotional Support Animal does entitle you to housing accommodations with respect to pets. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_support_animal

[expatpumpkin]

Mar 28, 2013 17:38:32 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Mar 28, 2013 17:26:46 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

A service RABBIT? I'm sorry. That rabbit is not helping her with basic needs. Maybe she's trained her cats to bring her pills to her if she cannot get them herself, or dial the phone for her, but there is no such thing as a service rabbit. lol

When I worked as a tour guide at Disneyland (we were Guest Relations cast members so we also staffed City Hall) some woman tried to convince us that her pink poodle was her service animal. She did have a doctors note, but no official documents? No dice.

Wow, she so could have sued Disney.  The ADA says you basically have to take someone on her word.  No official documents are necessary (because there really isn't a national certification process).  She didn't even have to show you a doctor's note.  Nor did the dog need to wear a vest.  (Many people don't want their service animal to stand out and then have to field a gazillion questions from strangers about what the dog does...)

All you can ask her is, "Is this a service animal," and "what kind of tasks does it perform?"  If she says, "yes" and gives any cogent explanation of an actual service (not comfort), such as "he alerts me (to seizures, etc.)" or "he's trained to do X" you have to let them in.  She does not have to say what her disability is and she does not have to make the dog exhibit any services.  

I get that a pink poodle may have made you raise your eyebrows, but Disney should have trained employees to better handle this.  Poodles are very intelligent and for all you know that dog could have been trained to alert her to seizures.

[berbles]

A lot of you need to do some reading about service animals before you spout off. Seriously.

Service animal =/= guide dog.

Someone with a traumatic brain injury could have an animal (doesn't have to be a dog) that helps them calm down and focus. Without that animal, they would have a very hard time functioning.

Otterama, your sister needs to do her own research on this. It's a more complicated issue than it seems she is thinking.

[elleblue]

Mar 28, 2013 18:01:37 GMT -5 expatpumpkin said:

Mar 28, 2013 17:38:32 GMT -5 elleblue said:

When I worked as a tour guide at Disneyland (we were Guest Relations cast members so we also staffed City Hall) some woman tried to convince us that her pink poodle was her service animal. She did have a doctors note, but no official documents? No dice.

Wow, she so could have sued Disney.  The ADA says you basically have to take someone on her word.  No official documents are necessary (because there really isn't a national certification process).  She didn't even have to show you a doctor's note.  Nor did the dog need to wear a vest.  (Many people don't want their service animal to stand out and then have to field a gazillion questions from strangers about what the dog does...)

All you can ask her is, "Is this a service animal," and "what kind of tasks does it perform?"  If she says, "yes" and gives any cogent explanation of an actual service (not comfort), such as "he alerts me (to seizures, etc.)" or "he's trained to do X" you have to let them in.  She does not have to say what her disability is and she does not have to make the dog exhibit any services.  

I get that a pink poodle may have made you raise your eyebrows, but Disney should have trained employees to better handle this.  Poodles are very intelligent and for all you know that dog could have been trained to alert her to seizures.

Sorry, I explained how it all went down poorly - I was only standing next to the person dealing with her anyway so I can't vouch for what was exactly said. The gist of it is that she tried to get through the front gate w/the dog, the cast members at the gate sent her to see us (as is procedure). She was asked those questions and didn't supply satisfactory responses (can't remember exactly but it was something along the lines of - sure he's a service dog, he can sit on command, etc but nothing that would point to him being a service dog). She was turned away but came back with a "doctor's note" written on a piece of towel from the bathroom, coincidentally the exact same kind found in the bathroom next door. Given her behavior and the way she tried to pass it off, it was pretty clear that this animal was not a service dog. This was also 8 years ago so I wouldn't be surprised if what you can and cannot do/say in these situations has been refined since then.

[expatpumpkin]

That does sound quite a bit different, Elle!

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 18:12:31 GMT -5 berbles said:

A lot of you need to do some reading about service animals before you spout off. Seriously.

Service animal =/= guide dog.

Someone with a traumatic brain injury could have an animal (doesn't have to be a dog) that helps them calm down and focus. Without that animal, they would have a very hard time functioning.

Otterama, your sister needs to do her own research on this. It's a more complicated issue than it seems she is thinking.

Look.  I don't doubt that a credible argument can be made.  Here.  I'll even do it for you.

This + this + this.

But it's going to be an uphill battle to convince a landlord that Mr. and Mrs. Whiskers and Li'l Bunbun are service animals, so my advice would be to simply save yourself the trouble and find a place that already allows animals.

[berbles]

Mar 28, 2013 18:22:44 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

Mar 28, 2013 18:12:31 GMT -5 berbles said:

A lot of you need to do some reading about service animals before you spout off. Seriously.

Service animal =/= guide dog.

Someone with a traumatic brain injury could have an animal (doesn't have to be a dog) that helps them calm down and focus. Without that animal, they would have a very hard time functioning.

Otterama, your sister needs to do her own research on this. It's a more complicated issue than it seems she is thinking.

Look.  I don't doubt that a credible argument can be made.  Here.  I'll even do it for you.

This + this + this.

But it's going to be an uphill battle to convince a landlord that Felix and Mr. and Mrs. Bunbun are service animals, so my advice would be to simply save yourself the trouble and find a place that already allow animals.

Oh, I totally agree with you.  And I said something similar in my first post.  

My comment wasn't directed at you.  (kiss)

[elleblue]

Mar 28, 2013 18:17:42 GMT -5 expatpumpkin said:

That does sound quite a bit different, Elle!

Yeah, trust. We knew what we could and couldn't say in compliance with the ADA. But you wouldn't believe the amount of people who came in for disabled passes for their autistic children. Not to say that most, or even all of those kids weren't autistic, but coming to DL on a crowded day and thinking it's going to go well for your child if they can't handle waiting in lines is, well, misguided. Have you seen the disabled lines for attractions on a busy day? It's certainly not a "skip the regular line" kind of situation, which many thought it was lol. We'd even have a few coming back in for a "better" pass which just didn't exist.

Of course, I can also see how having a child who will have a nuclear melt down at having to wait might be easier to deal with when you're in a line with other special needs kids/people - less fear of judgement and such.

[Deleted]

OK, so basically, it's just not as simple as she thinks it is.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2013 18:43:15 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Why do you care so much? I'm not sure if she's right or wrong but I don't see how it will bother you, unless she's trying to move in with you or something.

::Pets security rat::

Well, she does live with me. They are looking for an apartment of their own and she was telling me how they HAVE to accept her pets.

[lola]

I'm a landlord in Chicago and I've had this exact issue come up. Once you're talking about housing, and not "public places", the rules change and you jump from ADA to Fair Housing. Essentially she is asking for a special accommodation which is generally hard to decline. (Fair Housing is federal, so should be applied the same even if you're not in IL.)

Her LL could require a letter from a medical provider disclosing what "accommodation" she needs - in this case the pets. Emotional disabilities are treated the same as physical (i.e. - a LL can't decide that a person with depression has less rights to an accommodation than a person in a wheel chair has).

In short, the LL might be able to "fight it" based on the volume of pets but also will probably be disinclined to do so because of the perception of being in violation of the FHA which no LL wants at all.