elle, I've never heard of anyone referring to a "Top 12" for law schools -- why do you cut out Cornell and Georgetown from the top schools?
Because Cornell and Georgetown are always 13 and 14, but schools 7-12 are always trading places. That's how I've heard it referenced, but of course Cornell and Georgetown graduates aren't going to have trouble either.
I think the bolded really depends on the area, because I knew people from T14 schools who had a hell of a time trying to get into the DA's office in certain cities.
Ditto. Our office get inundated with applications for any openings that pop up because a lot of people assume it's an easy job to get. But counties haven't loosened the purse strings yet on hiring. We have people who interned in our office for 2-3 years, and have been working as volunteer attorneys post-bar for months, who still haven't been given offers because there aren't openings. And if a spot did open up, there'd be at least 7 well qualified applicants from the clerks and volunteers in my office alone. Working for the DA or PD has definitely gotten more competitive over the past 5-6 years.
The reason school ranking isn't as predictive is because every county starts the hiring process with a scored exam. The first question on my exam was: "Review this packet of materials for 15 minutes and then present a 5 minute closing argument supporting theory 'x'." Given how law schools generally do a crappy job of practical preparation, graduating from a top school doesn't mean that someone automatically have the skills for something like that. And if you can't score high enough on the exam, you don't get to the 2nd round of interviewing, which is where school prestige might have an influence, but again it's not the end all-be all the way it is for law firms.
In 03 when I graduated I applied with the DA and PD's offices in the 4 counties I was closest to, as well as the federal Public Defender's office, and got offers from all of them. Granted, none of them were permanent offers - they were all temporary positions that reupped after set periods of time - and I think 2 of them were totally unpaid, but I found the jobs easy to get. Note, though, the key word "unpaid." If you will need to make money when you graduate that can be a disabling favor, of course, but my experience was that the offices were more likely to hire the people who worked for free. The job I took actually was technically unpaid when I accepted it, but then they found money to pay me. Anyway, the salient point is if you want to be a DA, and are willing to be flexible in locations and work for free for awhile, you will probably get a job regardless of where you go to school. But you should do it for love of the job because you aren't going to be well paid.
Post by Saint Monica on Apr 13, 2013 12:45:36 GMT -5
Getting fucked is the life of many a lawyer. Also, I started out law skool wanting to be a public defender. Yep. I was going to free all of the innocents.
Reality: I didnt get a job at the public defender's office. I did a few private pay cases. Now I hate criminal defense so bad I will only take a case if: it is defending vs a domestic violence charge and I really need the money.
Post by Saint Monica on Apr 13, 2013 13:07:29 GMT -5
I just do not have the proper disposition to be a criminal defense attorney. I find it to stressful. I also have trouble identifying the lies criminal defense clients tell whilst in other areas of practice it is much easier to spot.
Getting fucked is the life of many a lawyer. Also, I started out law skool wanting to be a public defender. Yep. I was going to free all of the innocents.
Reality: I didnt get a job at the public defender's office. I did a few private pay cases. Now I hate criminal defense so bad I will only take a case if: it is defending vs a domestic violence charge and I really need the money.
I'm curious - since most attorneys I know on both sides of the table hate DV cases - what draws you to make an exception for DV defense?
Post by Saint Monica on Apr 13, 2013 13:20:36 GMT -5
In one particular county I practice in (much more so than the contiguous counties) I see a truckload more bogus/bullshit/contrived for the benefit of a divorce/custody dv accusations
It is so wrong. It takes away from legitimate DV cases. IMHO.
I'll say one thing. If you don't care about money the law is an awesome job. DH, who makes very little money (less than a teacher probably) loves his job. He does animal rights law. He is happy. My job has its ups and downs. It is incredibly stressful and requires tremendous endurance. It is also high stress. But I like the glory, and the money, and I really know my practice area so I like it because I am familiar enough with it to be creative . . . Which is fun. I also like winning. Oh, how I love winning.
But, as a general rule, the more money you make the less pleasant the practice is (all else - skills, education, etc. - being equal). Miso, my husband and I probably have comparable educational backgrounds. I would assume my husband makes the least and has the funniest job. Miso's job is fun, but not a total lark, and she makes a lot of money. My job sort of sucks but I make more than I could doing pretty much anything else. Which makes sense if you think about it, right . . . If you want people to do a less pleasant task, you pay them more. Garbage men make more than gardeners. Where it falls apart is if you don't go to a good school, end up at a boutique civil litigation firm, and then you don't make money or have any fun. And that just sucks. But I really do think it can be fun to be a lawyer. It can be fulfilling. It's just rare for it to be super lucrative and fulfilling both.
elle, I've never heard of anyone referring to a "Top 12" for law schools -- why do you cut out Cornell and Georgetown from the top schools?
Because Cornell and Georgetown are always 13 and 14, but schools 7-12 are always trading places. That's how I've heard it referenced, but of course Cornell and Georgetown graduates aren't going to have trouble either.
Ah, see I've only ever heard it referred to as Top 14, because while some switch around within that group, that same group of 14 is always at the top (and it isn't Top 15, which would be a more sensible number, because the school at spot 15 often changes). Though Georgetown was ranked 15 a few years ago for a year I think?
I wanted to be an aviation lawyer when I was younger. Is anyone here an aviation lawyer? Did I miss out on the awesomeness that I assumed it was?
My firm has an aviation group, and I'm friendly with a lot of the attorneys in it. Their work does not seem any more interesting than the incredibly uninteresting-sounding practice group I'm in.
Also, if you have a past with negative anything (taxes, credit, criminalhistory, mental health dx, civil litigation, etc.) it could be very difficult to be admitted. The markets are saturated and boards of admission are tightening up the requirements. Why let in someone with a sketchy past? Not to mention the saturation is driving down salaries, so good luck making that education $ count.
This is absolutely not true. It's just not. If you have a felony record the bar cares. But no, the bar absolutely does not give a flying fuck if you have a history of mental illness.
I'm very relieved to read this. I am also quite offended that being diagnosed with a mental illness is considered by some to be a "sketchy past" and equated with having a criminal history.
This is absolutely not true. It's just not. If you have a felony record the bar cares. But no, the bar absolutely does not give a flying fuck if you have a history of mental illness.
I'm very relieved to read this. I am also quite offended that being diagnosed with a mental illness is considered by some to be a "sketchy past" and equated with having a criminal history.
The application in New York asks whether you have "any mental or emotional condition or substance abuse problem that could adversely affect your capability to practice law" which I think is probably a fair question and leaves out the many, many mental conditions that would have absolutely no bearing on fitness.
Post by sherbanator on Apr 14, 2013 12:23:03 GMT -5
V- I really wanted to work at FSDO or with NATCA instead of for private pilots that were getting violated. I do feel better knowing I'm not missing much, lol.
Post by chalupabatman on Apr 15, 2013 8:31:17 GMT -5
I'm late, but I prosecute and graduated three years ago so I will chime in. I love my job. Its a great job if you like the way criminal law is written (kind of like logic games), if you like working with all kinds of people, public speaking, and making decisions. The way our state is structured I do a lot of plea deals and not very many jury trials, so its not like Law and Order, but it makes me happy. I'll just comment on a few things.
There are basically two paths to prosecuting. One is the pre-hire in major cities path. You apply in the Fall of your 3rd year and get hired ahead of time to start in that office the following year. Major offices like Manhattan, Fairfax, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, etc. operate this way. These are more prestigious and harder to get; they do require that you go to a high ranked school and have good grades.
The second is more regional. Once you've passed the bar you can apply within a state and the offices will interview and hire. In these cases it is a big advantage to have gone to an in state law school. You don't have to have gone somewhere highly ranked, but they will put a lot of emphasis on your internships and practical experience. Smaller offices don't have as much time and energy to devote to training you. They want to be able to put you in traffic court and call it a day.
Pre hire programs were completely gutted the year I graduated, thank you recession. I did get a job post bar the 2nd way; in my graduated class of 350 there are five of us prosecuting in the state right now. We either waited for bar results or clerked for state judges for a year or two, then transitioned to prosecuting. This path is very much about connections: they want you to have interned in state, to have done the third year clinicals where you get to try cases, to be familiar with judges, etc. Networking and internships are really important.
Other things to keep in mind: a lot of places require you to live in jurisdiction and your job can be tenuous based on political considerations; aka. if your boss doesn't win an election you might be fired. We've also had issues with the state cutting positions and offices having to fire the most recent prosecutors hired. A friend just lost her job this way. As others mentioned, I have great insurance and a good pension but they've both been getting cut because of budget issues. Before I started our salaries were cut twice in five years. They were cut again once after I started, raised once and are supposed to be raised again. We start at $45 k now. When I looked I think Manhattan was $65k but required you to live in jurisdiction which gets pricey. Miami started at $35k and Chicago was something like $50k.
I do work with people who went to law school as night school. Its more common in certain offices/cities than others. The downside I see is that working full time + going to night school does not leave you a lot of time to intern. My experience has been that prosecutors offices really want the internships now, because they want to know you can do the work without being babysat.
Prosecutors usually wind up gravitating to one specific area of criminal law. Most everyone starts out doing traffic; some people move on to do mostly DUIs, mostly drugs, mostly financial crimes, mostly violent crimes, or mostly crimes between family members as their career progresses. Just something to be aware of.
If you think you like criminal I would highly recommend choosing a busy day at your local courthouse and going to watch. You might also consider applying to be a magistrate or a witness coordinator. Neither one requires a law degree and both would expose you to the criminal system. If you're curious what type of requirements you would need to meet in order to apply for a specific office, you can google and read the bios of the prosecutors there. It should tell you where they went to law school, etc. Most would be happy to meet with you and talk to you about any advice or recommendations they have, so don't be embarrassed to shoot them an email and invite them to coffee.
It is not that hard of a job to get. It doesn't pay much ($50-$75K). If you can get into a top tier school with a full scholarship I would go for it. If you have the money to pay for law school without going into debt, again, knock yourself out. Otherwise, I wouldn't. The cost is too high.
LOL. Every time our office has hired a new PA, we get hundreds of applications. Hundreds. And this is for a small county out in the middle of nowhere. They are not easy jobs to get unless you have an in and either know someone or have had the "luck" to have worked as an unpaid intern for a different PA's office or have other prosecuting experience.
It is not that hard of a job to get. It doesn't pay much ($50-$75K). If you can get into a top tier school with a full scholarship I would go for it. If you have the money to pay for law school without going into debt, again, knock yourself out. Otherwise, I wouldn't. The cost is too high.
LOL. Every time our office has hired a new PA, we get hundreds of applications. Hundreds. And this is for a small county out in the middle of nowhere. They are not easy jobs to get unless you have an in and either know someone or have had the "luck" to have worked as an unpaid intern for a different PA's office or have other prosecuting experience.
I sort of agree - I had half a dozen BigLaw offers but could never even get an interview - for an INTERNSHIP! - with any of the prosecutors office. I actually think its a pretty competive area. Everyone I know who was hired in def had a close inside connection (like a parent). The one person I know who did not worked for 3 years (!!!) - after graduation - as a clerk for $16/hr before finally being hired as a prosecutor.
Post by Saint Monica on Apr 15, 2013 9:31:43 GMT -5
I dont even think watching a session in court is helpful- it is seeing what goes on behind the scenes and all of the bs you have to do BEFORE you go to the courtroom. Courtroom stuff always looks awesome. But what about budgetary limitations, research, etc. that is mind blowingly frustrating.
I dont even think watching a session in court is helpful- it is seeing what goes on behind the scenes and all of the bs you have to do BEFORE you go to the courtroom. Courtroom stuff always looks awesome. But what about budgetary limitations, research, etc. that is mind blowingly frustrating.
right. i was going to be a prosecutor and put all of the bad actors in jail forevah. and then i did a clinic, found it frustrating and disheartening and was unable ever to leave my "work" behind and thought about it obsessively. NEVERMIND.
Honestly, unless you are passionate about law/practicing and all that entails vs just looking for something to do while you figure out what you want to do with your life...I would highly recommend looking elsewhere.
The sheer expense of student loans and knowing that unless you work for a major firm and rack up tons of billable hours (and kiss your personal life goodbye), you'll be slave to said loans for the next 3 DECADES.
And yes, I'm an attorney, too, who after two years of being a mediator for a juvenile court - a job I was so passionate about in the beginning - found herself dreading getting up to go to work, not to mention the lousy pay, walked away from practicing law and am now working as a director in a legal research corporation. Much better work-life balance and much, much better pay.
So I'm good with where I am now but if I had it to do over again, I would never have gone to law school.
So think long and hard and then think some more before diving into this.
Post by Saint Monica on Apr 15, 2013 9:42:45 GMT -5
Oh and if you dont have mental health issues going into law school you are def. more likely to develop them in law school. I am pretty sure it is a promise you will have one once you start practicing.