It is not that hard of a job to get. It doesn't pay much ($50-$75K). If you can get into a top tier school with a full scholarship I would go for it. If you have the money to pay for law school without going into debt, again, knock yourself out. Otherwise, I wouldn't. The cost is too high.
Also, if you have a past with negative anything (taxes, credit, criminalhistory, mental health dx, civil litigation, etc.) it could be very difficult to be admitted. The markets are saturated and boards of admission are tightening up the requirements. Why let in someone with a sketchy past? Not to mention the saturation is driving down salaries, so good luck making that education $ count.
It is not that hard of a job to get. It doesn't pay much ($50-$75K). If you can get into a top tier school with a full scholarship I would go for it. If you have the money to pay for law school without going into debt, again, knock yourself out. Otherwise, I wouldn't. The cost is too high.
I'd definitely have to go into debt. I highly doubt I could get a scholarship. Would it be necessary to go to a top tier school?
Not to be a DA or a public defender. But you won't make enough to pay off the loans doing that. I would really only go with a scholarship or to a top 12. At a top 12, even with loans, you'll be able to pay them off in under 5 years if you take a firm job (which start at $165K). But if you don't go to a top 12 its hard to be certain you'll get a big law job and then you've just taken on a lot of debt. But a lower tiered school with a scholarship is a fine plan.
I love my job, but I would only recommend going if you know you REALLY want to be an attorney. The market is not good now. Maybe some large firms are hiring now, but most lawyers don't work at large firms, and it is really rough still for new law grads. Also, if you are very set on a certain practice area, I would only go if you get into a top school (like top 10). With the competitive market, you really have to be flexible with the type of job you are willing to take unless you have impressive academic credentials. I graduated back when the economy was okay, had average grades from a pretty good school (ranked in the 30's), and I was applying everywhere and going on any interview I could get. I really wanted to practice family law, but I didn't get a single interview in that practice area. I had a lot of public defender interviews (DA's offices were much, much more competitive), interviews with some Legal Aid offices, and a few law firm interviews in various practice areas. I ended up taking a job at a firm practicing juvenile law because it was the only offer that was somewhat similar to the divorce work I wanted to do. If you go to a lower ranked school and don't end up at the top of your class, you are probably going to have to be pretty open to the type of job you are willing to take. Also, law schools require that you maintain a certain class rank to keep your scholarship, and I had many friends who ended up losing their academic scholarships.
DAs here start around $35k and I'm in a HCOL area. For me, taking on that kind of debt would not be worth it for even the higher paying DA jobs. (But there's obviously more to consider than just finances - you're clearly not looking to get rich if you want to be a DA.)
You do not need top credentials to get into a DA's office. I got my first DA job because the head of the office I interned in in my school state was friends with the head of an office in the state I moved to and live in now and told him to hire me because I was ridiculously awesome in a court room, even if I didn't make the top 10% in the classroom. But keep this in mind. I graduated with about $80k in student loans and my first job paid $38k a year in a city of about 100,000 people with a moderate COL. Granted that was 12 years ago but it's not a job you do for the money. I got part of a specific loan waived for working in law enforcement and now they have income based repayment and you can waive your balance after you make 10 years worth of payments if you work in public interest areas.
I've been out for 12 years now so I'm not the right one to ask about the market but I hear horror stories from new grads about not being able to get a job these days.
Post by sparkythelawyer on Apr 12, 2013 22:29:27 GMT -5
I will never tell someone not to go to law school if it is truly what they want to do. BUT.
1) Do you have any legal experience? Ever worked as a legal assistant, paralegal, etc?
2) Law school is ridiculously expensive, and crim law pays crap.
3) Law school is a metric shitton of work. You have to really WANT it, because its too much work otherwise.
Have you taken the LSAT yet? If nothing else, start there. Go prep for the LSAT and take it and see how you do. You can always decide after that if you want to go.
I guess right now you should think about what your grades in college were like, where you went, and if you are a good test taker. I went to a middling college and had a 3.8 adjusted (which is not that awesome) but I am a good test taker and scored in the top 1% on my LSAT's. I got into everywhere except the top 3. So it's not like med school where a mediocre college performance will kill you, but if you partied through college like me, you do need to be able to rock a standardized rest. And you'll know already if you can.
Otherwise, I think you'd be smart to consider another job in the field. Maybe try being a paralegal and see how you like that?
Also, if you have a past with negative anything (taxes, credit, criminalhistory, mental health dx, civil litigation, etc.) it could be very difficult to be admitted. The markets are saturated and boards of admission are tightening up the requirements. Why let in someone with a sketchy past? Not to mention the saturation is driving down salaries, so good luck making that education $ count.
This is absolutely not true. It's just not. If you have a felony record the bar cares. But no, the bar absolutely does not give a flying fuck if you have a history of mental illness.
So I've been considering going back to school for...something. I've thought about going to law school in the past.
I'm only interested in criminal law. Possibly being a prosecutor. Would I be stupid to do this considering the cost of law school? Is it hard to get a job with a district attorney's office? For this type of job, does it matter where you go to school? Does anyone have experience with a part time program?
Halp...I need a life coach!
no. you go to law school to be a lawyer. not for "something". and i wanted to be a prosecutor too, but not only was the money of a firm a draw, i liked the law part of what i ended up in more too. and criminal practice takes a special breed, which is hard to figure out without direct exposure. hence my great happiness that i'd gone to the best school i had gotten into, which afforded me far broader opportunities.
law school is vocational school for bookish types.
Also, if you have a past with negative anything (taxes, credit, criminalhistory, mental health dx, civil litigation, etc.) it could be very difficult to be admitted. The markets are saturated and boards of admission are tightening up the requirements. Why let in someone with a sketchy past? Not to mention the saturation is driving down salaries, so good luck making that education $ count.
This is absolutely not true. It's just not. If you have a felony record the bar cares. But no, the bar absolutely does not give a flying fuck if you have a history of mental illness.
Disclosing mental health history is part of the character and fitness application in most if not all states. They consider if mental illness (or substance abuse) would interfere with your ability to practice law.
This is absolutely not true. It's just not. If you have a felony record the bar cares. But no, the bar absolutely does not give a flying fuck if you have a history of mental illness.
Disclosing mental health history is part of the character and fitness application in most if not all states. They consider if mental illness (or substance abuse) would interfere with your ability to practice law.
Right. And I believe a grand total of 0 people have ever self-disclosed a belief it will interfere, and a further total of 0 references have ever said so. The bar is not ferreting out admittes based on a history of mental illness.
Post by sparkythelawyer on Apr 12, 2013 22:47:40 GMT -5
As far as the market out there, well, I graduated in January 2010, and I most definitely did NOT go to a top school. The market for new attorneys, even three years later, sucks phenomenal dick. I was one of the lucky ones, I was clerking in what is still kind of a non-traditional environment for law students, and they promoted me the following January. I was there for a couple of years, and I just recently changed jobs. Many people in my class were still looking for full time work well over a year later.
It is extremely tough out there for new attorneys. You have to have a lot of hustle, a lot of willingness to get out there and meet people as a law student, and a willingness to keep your options open, and even then you can still expect to be looking for a job for an extended amount of time before you find something.
But, we're all getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Take the LSAT, and see how you do.
This is absolutely not true. It's just not. If you have a felony record the bar cares. But no, the bar absolutely does not give a flying fuck if you have a history of mental illness.
Disclosing mental health history is part of the character and fitness application in most if not all states. They consider if mental illness (or substance abuse) would interfere with your ability to practice law.
oh come on. i knew a lot of crazy people in law school and they all passed character and fitness. felony fraud? probably not. history of medicated anxiety? welcome to the club.
certainly they look at that, but in evaluating whether to go, look at lsats, grades, and whether you want to be a lawyer, for at least as long as it would take to pay your loans.
Disclosing mental health history is part of the character and fitness application in most if not all states. They consider if mental illness (or substance abuse) would interfere with your ability to practice law.
Right. And I believe a grand total of 0 people have ever self-disclosed a belief it will interfere, and a further total of 0 references have ever said so. The bar is not ferreting out admittes based on a history of mental illness.
I know, professionally, for a fact, that you are wrong. Florida, in particular, requires an arduous fitness examination when it comes to mental health. Some people with mild, treatable and historically documented controlled conditions are not denied, but those with major mental health dx are subject to psych exams and many procedures before the board. Not all are denied, but many are.
You don't hear about it because character and fitness exams are confidential proceedings. And who is going to go running around town clanging their bell that they were too crazy, too much of a boozehound,a lying liar who lies or a financial idiot? (shrug)
I am just saying that there are other factors to consider outside of studying and exams.
Disclosing mental health history is part of the character and fitness application in most if not all states. They consider if mental illness (or substance abuse) would interfere with your ability to practice law.
oh come on. i knew a lot of crazy people in law school and they all passed character and fitness. felony fraud? probably not. history of medicated anxiety? welcome to the club.
certainly they look at that, but in evaluating whether to go, look at lsats, grades, and whether you want to be a lawyer, for at least as long as it would take to pay your loans.
I'm not arguing that medicated anxiety is going to be an issue. For the vast majority of people the character and fitness application shouldn't be a concern. However, I do think the bar gives a little more than a "flying fuck" about mental health (and also substance abuse, financial responsibility, etc). ETA: I think the are only concerned about extreme situations like a a serious untreated mental health issue.
Right. And I believe a grand total of 0 people have ever self-disclosed a belief it will interfere, and a further total of 0 references have ever said so. The bar is not ferreting out admittes based on a history of mental illness.
I know, professionally, for a fact, that you are wrong. Florida, in particular, requires an arduous fitness examination when it comes to mental health. Some people with mild, treatable and historically documented controlled conditions are not denied, but those with major mental health dx are subject to psych exams and many procedures before the board. Not all are denied, but many are.
Um, I've actually been a character and fitness witness for a FL bar applicant, and the topic of their mental health was not a priority. Also, FL's (and many states) concerns are usually untreated mental illness. So, unless you are saying you personally were denied due to your own mental health history, I think you are stretching it a bit.
No, never been to law school and never applied. Won't reveal HOW I know these things better than most legal beagles, but I do. Mental health is not always an issue, but it is a common denying factor.
This is getting totally off topic, but I did encounter a lawyer who was suspended due to mental health issues. She was involved in a case of mine and I had never heard of her, so I looked her up on the bar website. She had discipline history and I couldn't help but read it. She was bipolar and wasn't getting treatment for a while, did some really off the wall stuff, and was suspended until she received treatment and the bar received a written recommendation from a psychologist that her illness was under control and she was able to practice law. I felt so bad for her that this info is all public information.