New windows or insulation?

[Deleted]

So, we live in the south and most older homes, including ours, have single pane windows and barely any insulation. Needless to say, the house we are buying is pretty energy inefficient. What is better to do first? Install better, double pane windows or add some insulation in key areas first?

The guy who did the inspection for us said that windows would be our best bet. He also said that we should insulate and maybe cover the drop down attic stairs with plastic so that we keep the air in better.

Thoughts on any of this?

[Deleted]

What are the windows made of? Wood or metal? If they are old wood, your inspector is ignorant (I can go into more detail if you like, and there is some info from a National Lab energy study near the end of my bio, but I don't want to type a book if you don't want to read it). The window replacement industry has quite a bit invested in putting people in a rip-out-and-replace cycle, the shorter the better, and most tradespeople are perfectly happy to go along with the lies. Some refurbishing and cheap storms will give you about the same efficiency without ruining the look of your house, draining your bank account, and filling up the landfill.  If they are metal, eh, I'd get rid of them eventually for aesthetic and energy reasons, but I'd still do insulation first. It's cheap in comparison and actually does save energy. If energy expert FoxInFiji is around, she has lots of info on payback periods.

[TBM]

We just moved into a house in FL that is as you are describing. Our general contractor has advised to insulate first.

He actually doesn't seem as concerned by the windows, other than making sure that the operational windows are in good working order. We have a couple in need of repair, but he feels that the relatively inexpensive fixes, along with the insulation will make a huge difference in the overall energy efficiency of the house.

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[sillygoosegirl]

We were advised to add more insulation (we already have quite a bit), and get our ducts sealed before upgrading even the oldest of our windows, which are single pain. Better windows do save a lot of energy, but they also cost a lot to make and install (measured in either dollars and energy), where as insulation is relatively cheap, and duct sealing uses relatively little by way of materials, mostly just labor.

That said, we're still probably going to get the single-pain windows done first because they also let in a lot of noise (to the master bedroom), and are don't open/close all that well anymore. Energy savings is important to me, but not my only consideration.

(If you add insulation anywhere there is ductwork, make sure to get the ducts sealed first. It's important and gets hard to do after the insulation has been installed...)

[Deleted]

@juno, the windows are made of wood. They all seem to be in great shape from what I could tell. I had a gut feeling that insulation would be our better bet in the beginning. I'll check out the study in your bio, thank you!

TBM and sillygoosegirl, where do you add insulation? We have a four sided brick house and apparently there's not much in the walls.

[TBM]

We don't have brick, so our add in is a bit easier.

My mom's brick house is double brick with insulation between, but in their addition, the insulation is between the brick and the interior wall.

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[Deleted]

You're welcome. Old wood windows should not be replaced period and should certainly not be replaced with any product other than wood, which is $$$.  However there are things you can do to improve the efficiency of your existing windows.  There is nothing about an old sash cord window that cannot be repaired, which is part of what makes them so wonderful.  @bluesky just had her windows refurbished professionally (we diyed ours), so she is a good source of info on finding someone/pricing.  

[new2this2]

Another vote for insulation first. I don't live in the South but I have an old house (early 1900s - either 1905 or 1910). Most of the windows are original. We have blinds and/or curtains in all our windows and were told not to really worry about them. We don't really have plans to insulate right now but from an energy efficiency standpoint that's what we would do first.

That said, we are replacing our windows. They are all in poor condition. Most were painted shut with lead based paint. They all have tons of layers of (likely lead based) paint. The wood has been damaged on all of them to the point that you can't open them

[Deleted]

May 18, 2013 13:28:30 GMT -5 new2this2 said:

Another vote for insulation first. I don't live in the South but I have an old house (early 1900s - either 1905 or 1910). Most of the windows are original. We have blinds and/or curtains in all our windows and were told not to really worry about them. We don't really have plans to insulate right now but from an energy efficiency standpoint that's what we would do first.

That said, we are replacing our windows. They are all in poor condition. Most were painted shut with lead based paint. They all have tons of layers of (likely lead based) paint. The wood has been damaged on all of them to the point that you can't open them

This stuff can be fixed by painters.  Lead paint isn't a problem unless it is chipping or you are letting children chew on the windows.  It can be encapsulated.  If they are simply painted shut, they can be opened going around the inside and outside of the sash with a putty knife and a hammer for free.  It took us all of an hour to unstick each of ours.  If some dipshit painted the sash channels, they might have to be stripped, but that's not the end of the world.

[nessness]

Our inspector told us that it generally takes 30+ years to recoup the costs from replacing windows. His advice was to replace the windows when you want to replace them (because you want ones that look nicer/slide easier/open differently), not because you think it will save money on heating and cooling.

[new2this2]

May 18, 2013 13:38:38 GMT -5 @juno said:

May 18, 2013 13:28:30 GMT -5 new2this2 said:

Another vote for insulation first. I don't live in the South but I have an old house (early 1900s - either 1905 or 1910). Most of the windows are original. We have blinds and/or curtains in all our windows and were told not to really worry about them. We don't really have plans to insulate right now but from an energy efficiency standpoint that's what we would do first.

That said, we are replacing our windows. They are all in poor condition. Most were painted shut with lead based paint. They all have tons of layers of (likely lead based) paint. The wood has been damaged on all of them to the point that you can't open them

This stuff can be fixed by painters.  Lead paint isn't a problem unless it is chipping or you are letting children chew on the windows.  It can be encapsulated.  If they are simply painted shut, they can be opened going around the inside and outside of the sash with a putty knife and a hammer for free.  It took us all of an hour to unstick each of ours.  If some dipshit painted the sash channels, they might have to be stripped, but that's not the end of the world.

We have opened several by cutting the paint. That's no problem. The problem is that none of them stay open because damage to the wood. The wood has split and is missing sections on some of the windows. It doesn't affect them when they are closed but it means they can't be opened.

The lead paint isn't chipping at all and personally, I'm fine with it being there even with kids. It was painted over at some point before we moved in so the top layer isn't even lead. But lead paint + windows that can never be opened is an issue. Unless I'm missing some awesome way to fix them?? If so, I'm all ears!! The only windows we've replaced so far are crappy metal ones that were added in a remodel.

[treedimensional]

Insulation! Because of the two, only insulation will make a difference in energy savings. Insulation is not only the cheapest approach, it is the most effective.
Glass is a poor insulator. It doesn't matter if you have single pane, double pane, or triple pane with argon gas. It is still GLASS. Even when it is half an inch thick, it insulates very poorly.

[Deleted]

Thanks again ladies! I am now pretty excited to figure out a way to get more insulation in the house.

[TBM]

May 19, 2013 10:22:08 GMT -5 @choco said:

Thanks again ladies! I am now pretty excited to figure out a way to get more insulation in the house.

I am guessing that your attic would be the first place to start. That was the place that my parents added insulation to theirs. That is the first place we added insulation here, too, but that was just because it was the first place that it was discovered that there was a problem and the roof was off, so it made sense.


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[FoxInFiji]

I agree with everyone. Insulation first! Start in the attic since that should be the easiest access. You want a lot of insulation in your attic. Even in a warm climate like Atlanta the current energy code lists R-38 as the minimum required. In the walls will be much harder but it depends on what you're willing to do to your interior walls (ie. patch a lot of holes or hire someone to).

Windows are not something that will have any significant ROI or increase in resale value. +30 years is a typical ROI when it comes to energy and if you go with a cheap vinyl window you'll need to replace them by then...forever stuck in a window replacement cycle that you never get your money out of. Stay with the wood windows and when you have enough money or time if you're DIYing refurbish them.

[housegeek]

Id go with insulation first, simply because you can put curtains/shades in front of the windows that will help, but you can't do much for the ceiling/ walls

[jloww]

May 27, 2013 17:11:59 GMT -5 nursecramer said:

I know this post is stale, but I just wanted to add another voice to the "keep the windows" chorus. We decided to restore the 20+ three-over-one windows in our 1923 house. We reglazed each pane and replaced where they were cracked or broken. The bedroom windows had been painted white and it was terribly chipped, so we painted over it with lead encapsulating paint. Even though the paint was really loose and damaged, the encapsulating paint is super sticky and thick and coats it really well, yet doesn't prevent us from opening and closing the windows normally.

We were dreading the electricity bills this winter and thought we might add insulation to the attic, but tried some cheaper fixes first: repaired and installed all the storm windows when it started freezing at night, and installed a programmable thermostat so it would be 65 when we were asleep or at work and 70 while we were at home. We were pleasantly surprised that we paid less than $100/mo (that's not prorated-- that was our real usage for 2500sq ft).

Do you happen to have any pictures?  We are starting the process (1928) next week and could use some motivation.  We are leaning towards scraping because we are only doing the outside, nut it's good to know there is also an encapsulation option.  

[jloww]

That looks awesome!  Can you please link me to the paint?  By scraping I mean basically picking the loose paint off.  It is hanging in hunks in places.  We are going to leave the "alligator" stuff like you did.

[jloww]

May 27, 2013 19:29:54 GMT -5 nursecramer said:

www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XUN258/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I think we ended up needing about one and a half of these. I'd wear gloves and cover skin judiciously. Like I said, it's really sticky, so if you get it on you, it's not coming off, even if you try to wipe it right away.

And we did have some hanging paint flakes, too. We vacuumed them out, along with all the loose glazing, leaves, dirt, etc.

Thanks!!  Between you and juno we are all set now.  We'll use this paint