What do you think about this? Nutshell: Woman does a lot of meth while pregnant. Baby is stillborn at 31 weeks. Prosecutors charge woman with manslaughter.
I'll be honest, I didn't read the article. But for me, a fetus either is or isn't a person. You can't have it both ways.
I'm still figuring this out so the question isn't an attack.
But do you think, then, that They are wrong when They charge people an extra body count for killing pregnant women? I remember that happening not too long ago.
Like I said, still figuring it out, though generally I agree with you. I just don't also wonder if maybe the age of viability (24+ weeks) could be a decent compromise....? But like papie said it's a slippery slope
Can they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that meth killed the fetus?
That's the thing - how would they be able to do that? And then, every time a "questionable looking" woman suffers a miscarriage, will she also be asked to take a drug test?
Post by shostakovich on Jun 3, 2013 10:20:18 GMT -5
Slippery slope.
Even though they found meth in her system, can they prove that is what killed the fetus? I think the idea of manslaughter through negligence as regards fetuses sets a dangerous precedent for women. Would too much caffeine be considered negligence? Not taking prenatal vitamins consistently? Where is the line drawn?
I'll be honest, I didn't read the article. But for me, a fetus either is or isn't a person. You can't have it both ways.
I'm still figuring this out so the question isn't an attack.
But do you think, then, that They are wrong when They charge people an extra body count for killing pregnant women? I remember that happening not too long ago.
Like I said, still figuring it out, though generally I agree with you. I just don't also wonder if maybe the age of viability (24+ weeks) could be a decent compromise....? But like papie said it's a slippery slope
I am not sure about the murder charges when someone kills the woman. BUT, in my mind, the fetus is an extention of the woman at that stage. So if you attack a woman and kill her fetus against her will, I can get down with the murder charge, although it makes me uncomfortable. But it is the woman's body, and therefore SHE gets to decide what she does to it, fetus included.
Anything after 20-22 weeks gestation, I consider a human being. If you miscarry after 20 wks, you need a death certificate. (I think)
This lady person committed a crime on a person. Manslaughter is the least she should be charged with.
But abortion is still legal until the end in many places...and I think it is ok like that. What if you find out at 30 weeks that the fetus has an illness that will kill it within a year? Would you then force the woman to carry it to term?
I'll be honest, I didn't read the article. But for me, a fetus either is or isn't a person. You can't have it both ways.
I'm still figuring this out so the question isn't an attack.
But do you think, then, that They are wrong when They charge people an extra body count for killing pregnant women? I remember that happening not too long ago.
Like I said, still figuring it out, though generally I agree with you. I just don't also wonder if maybe the age of viability (24+ weeks) could be a decent compromise....? But like papie said it's a slippery slope
That's tricky. Emotionally, I want them to be charged. The problem for me is then, why is it only a person when someone else ends it's life, not the mother?
I think that this type of thinking does too much damage to the pro choice argument. It's either a fetus or a human.
In terms of viability, I don't think it should matter. What if this woman only did meth up to 24 weeks, but the damage was done?
No, and I doubt they could prove definitively that the meth is what caused it. When dealing with late and early stillborns the cause is rarely clear even with autopsy and pathology. Women do a lot of things that most people would judge them for while pregnant and still deliver healthy babies. I wish they wouldn't get to keep them.
Yeah, good point and again Papie too on the viability age.
Ack this stuff is so hard and heartbreaking It's hard not to see the other side of things sometimes, even if I think in terms of policy/legality they're wrong. YKWIM?
Ack this stuff is so hard and heartbreaking It's hard not to see the other side of things sometimes, even if I think in terms of policy/legality they're wrong. YKWIM?
I agree with you. It is hard to separate my emotions as a mother with my view on women's rights, and make sure one doesn't hurt the other.
And I don't want them to start investigating every intrauterine fetal demise. This is a devastating thing to happen to anyone. I can not imagine if they start investigating these for wrong doing, OMG. The trauma of the situation is already too much.
This doesn't sit well for me. It is the gross negligence/reasonable care side of the equation that bothers me. Applying those standards to the way a pregnant woman treats her own body troubles me. Some women don't even know they are pregnant. How would that affect it? It is just a really tricky standard.
Anything after 20-22 weeks gestation, I consider a human being. If you miscarry after 20 wks, you need a death certificate. (I think)
This lady person committed a crime on a person. Manslaughter is the least she should be charged with.
But abortion is still legal until the end in many places...and I think it is ok like that. What if you find out at 30 weeks that the fetus has an illness that will kill it within a year? Would you then force the woman to carry it to term?
No. this is not black and white. I believe it should be a case by case basis, but nobody has time for that.
You are right that abortions (for whatever reason) are allowed until the end, I'm ok with that too. As well terminating a pregnancy because of illness, development disorders etc.
But the whole drugs thing doesn't sit well with me. This girl was neglecting to preserve life and put 'getting high' first. If she wanted to smoke meth fine, then don't get pregnant. Go to rehab. Do something. Ya know?
Anything after 20-22 weeks gestation, I consider a human being. If you miscarry after 20 wks, you need a death certificate. (I think)
This lady person committed a crime on a person. Manslaughter is the least she should be charged with.
But abortion is still legal until the end in many places...and I think it is ok like that. What if you find out at 30 weeks that the fetus has an illness that will kill it within a year? Would you then force the woman to carry it to term?
In many parts of the US, yes, she would be forced to carry the child to term and watch it die even if it cannot survive outside the womb.
But abortion is still legal until the end in many places...and I think it is ok like that. What if you find out at 30 weeks that the fetus has an illness that will kill it within a year? Would you then force the woman to carry it to term?
No. this is not black and white. I believe it should be a case by case basis, but nobody has time for that.
You are right that abortions (for whatever reason) are allowed until the end, I'm ok with that too. As well terminating a pregnancy because of illness, development disorders etc.
But the whole drugs thing doesn't sit well with me. This girl was neglecting to preserve life and put 'getting high' first. If she wanted to smoke meth fine, then don't get pregnant. Go to rehab. Do something. Ya know?
Well, we know it isn't always as simple as don't get pregnant, right?
I agree you shouldn't do drugs while pregnant, obviously. But I don't think prosecuting is the way to go.
But abortion is still legal until the end in many places...and I think it is ok like that. What if you find out at 30 weeks that the fetus has an illness that will kill it within a year? Would you then force the woman to carry it to term?
No. this is not black and white. I believe it should be a case by case basis, but nobody has time for that.
You are right that abortions (for whatever reason) are allowed until the end, I'm ok with that too. As well terminating a pregnancy because of illness, development disorders etc.
But the whole drugs thing doesn't sit well with me. This girl was neglecting to preserve life and put 'getting high' first. If she wanted to smoke meth fine, then don't get pregnant. Go to rehab. Do something. Ya know?
To me, this is a bit like, "Don't want a baby, keep your legs shut". It's not that easy.
I'm not saying that you're saying that, but the sentiment is a bit similar.
That's tricky. Emotionally, I want them to be charged. The problem for me is then, why is it only a person when someone else ends it's life, not the mother?
The standard here isn't actual intent to kill or harm the fetus. It is gross negligence. We aren't talking about people who ODed as an back alley abortion method.
That's tricky. Emotionally, I want them to be charged. The problem for me is then, why is it only a person when someone else ends it's life, not the mother?
The standard here isn't actual intent to kill or harm the fetus. It is gross negligence. We aren't talking about people who ODed as an back alley abortion method.
But then where is the line? What if a pregnant woman chooses to not wear a seatbelt, of bungee jumps?
For me (and I know not everyone feels the same), until the baby is born, there is no baby.
Oh and whar about the women who don't find out they are pregnant until like 6-7 months? Should they be charged for not taking care of their fetus?
I'm not saying I agree that the woman should be charged. I actually have no idea where I stand on that, BUT I think the difference in the meth user and the person who didn't know she was pregnant until 6-7 months would be the intent, right? She knew she was pregnant and knowingly did meth, but the woman who didn't know she was pregnant didn't take care of her fetus because she didn't know it was there. Or am I looking at this too simply?
Sure.
But addicts can't really control themselves, right? Maybe she really really wanted to stop, but just couldn't?
The standard here isn't actual intent to kill or harm the fetus. It is gross negligence. We aren't talking about people who ODed as an back alley abortion method.
But then where is the line? What if a pregnant woman chooses to not wear a seatbelt, of bungee jumps?
For me (and I know not everyone feels the same), until the baby is born, there is no baby.
We agree here. My point is these women *aren't* intending to harm the fetus, just committing gross negligence. And committing gross negligence with respect to an entity they may not even realize exists. And all of the actions take part in their own body. That greatly troubles me.
A fetus is considered a human for purposes of many homicide statutes. Conceptually I disagree but the purpose is to increase penalties for people who murder pregnant women. I would, however, be very, very reluctant to go down this path when the defendant is the mother because, to me, it is a clear attempt to build precedent tha can be used to charge abortion as manslaughter. It makes no sense that a mother's intentional termination of a pregnancy cannot be punished but her unintentional termination can be; that's contrary to our system of laws, that the same act done without intent can be punished more harshly than the same act with intent.
I'm not saying I agree that the woman should be charged. I actually have no idea where I stand on that, BUT I think the difference in the meth user and the person who didn't know she was pregnant until 6-7 months would be the intent, right? She knew she was pregnant and knowingly did meth, but the woman who didn't know she was pregnant didn't take care of her fetus because she didn't know it was there. Or am I looking at this too simply?
Meth addicts are exactly the type of people who aren't going to know they are pregnant though because they take crap care of their health. And if not "knowing" is the difference between criminal culpability and freedom, this is just an incentive to stick your head in the ground, keep taking your meth, never acknowledge the pregnancy and never get prenatal care.
Since EVERY FUCKING THING CAN KILL YOU, this really fucking pisses me off
Too little water, too much water, too much sun, too little sun. If I ever got pregnant, should I immediately quit my job because I work in a LABORATORY with CHEMICALS?
I, MaryWithoutSound, did knowingly ingest caffeine, antihistamines, meat which was not considered well done, unpasteurized cheese and paint fumes. And that was just this weekend. Fuck off, Mississippi, fuck off.