this foster dog thing isn't going well (long)-advice needed

[nomad100]

Any advice you can give would be appreciated.  (I apologize in advance for the lack of PIPs of the foster.  I can't get him to sit still long enough to take a photo.)

Alfie, the foster, is making our resident dog Willow nuts.  He won't let up.  He is constantly badgering her, biting her face, pulling on her ears, nipping at her feet, trying to hump her.  We have been trying to keep them separated but the second they are together, chaos.  It is stressing Willow out to the point that she vomited up her dinner last night.

I know it has only been 4 days but I thought that it would begin to get better.  In fact the opposite is happening.  The few times we have put them outside together in our backyard, with us supervising, it has sounded like we are hosting a dog fight.  Growling, snapping, biting, barking, wrestling, jumping, chasing - no blood yet mainly because Willow is so nice (she outweighs Alfie by 35 lbs and could probably hurt him if she wanted).  Alfie just keeps coming and coming, even after Willow gives him warning after warning and then finally pins him down.   I know that Willow will not let him be the dominant one so until he submits to her being the Queen Bee of the house, this fighting will likely continue. 

I have no idea what to do. I don't want to have Alfie crated all hours of the day but he cannot be left anywhere unsupervised. And at the same time, I don't want to pen up Willow to keep her safe since can be left somewhere unsupervised. Plus she is used to having full run of the house and being around us when we are home.   

We are doing all the usual things to show Willow is the alpha - feeding first, petting first, treats first, out the door first, back inside first, walking ahead of Alfie when we are out on our walks, she is allowed on the furniture and he is not.  Is there anything else we can do?

When we have Alfie is by himself, it is like he is a totally different dog.  Playful, silly, not agressive, snuggly, just wanting to be petted and played with (and he plays quite nice, a little growly but nothing extraordinary)  but when he and Willow are together it is like BAM Explosion!  I have been doing NILF but not sure what else we can do since this appears to be a dominance thing. 

He is getting three 30-40 minute walks a day (I walk him in the AM, DH is coming home from work to walk him over lunch, and all 4 of us walk in the PM).  He knows almost no commands but we are working reinforcing the ones he does know for some mental exercises.  He is not at all food motivated.  He is much more play motivated but that ramps him up and he starts tearing all over the house and loses his focus.

There is no stinking way this guy is 2.5 years old.  He is crazy - like puppy crazy. 

Any help, suggestions, advice, commiseration welcome. 

ETA:  We have had my brother's GSD, my MIL's Brittney, my neighbor's little white foofy dogs over for extended stays and Willow hasn't had a problem with them.  A few sniffs, a walk around the block, a little playing/running around in the backyard and they were snozing together on the floor.  This seems to be about Alfie and his particular behavior for Willow.

[Deleted]

Other than wanting to be dominant, he sounds a lot like my sister's dog -- extended puppy phase, even with obedience school, etc. For him, as lone wolf, only time helped. I hope others have more active suggestions.

I'm sorry, this sounds really stressful

[sake]

This sounds a lot like how it was when Doby first came into our house. I really don't have suggestions bc/c it just took time for Cosmo to get used to not being the only dog, and for Doby to figure out that she puts up with minimal shit from him. It was really rough at first so I know what you're dealing with, and I'm sorry. If you don't think your original dog and foster will begin to get along better soon, I don't think it's bad to contact the rescue and explain to them that this foster isn't working for you guys...

[sarahbear]

Our rescue dog is like that. We fostered first then decided to keep her. We have no other pets. She has to be the only animal. We even did extensive behavioral training and classes. Some dogs need to be the only dog in the home.

[Deleted]

I fostered a dog once much like this and my other two were absolutely fed up and ready for her to move on to her forever home as soon as I brought her into ours. It got better as the days went on, but keeping them separate is really all we could do to keep them all from killing one another. She finally was moved to a permanent home and I decided my older two were probably too old and set in their ways to accept a constant stream of new friends so I didn't foster again.

Hopefully someone else will have a more reassuring and positive story.

[VeryViolet]

I don't have any suggestions for how to get the two dogs to cohabitate better but I do have an a 3 and a half year old puppy. The thing that gets him to calm down more than anything is working his brain. The physical exercise is important but we can run him around and have him swim all day and he is recovered and ready to play in about an hour. Working with him on training/commands for an hour or so (spread out into 5 or 10 minute segments) a day will wear him out like crazy. Also, just taking him new places where he has to explore everything seems to wear him out. We have also had some luck with different puzzle games but he is pretty destructive to toys so I have to get creative with it.

[mala]

It sounds like you're doing everything right and the only thing that is going to help is time.

It might be worth going to the rescue you got him from and informing them that he needs to be in a home with no other dogs. Some dogs just need to be in a single-dog home. It doesn't mean they're bad dogs, or weren't trained properly. That's just how they are.

[motzie]

Are you walking them together, or separately?

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 10:31:30 GMT -5 motzie said:

Are you walking them together, or separately?

AM and Lunch walks are Alfie only.  PM walk is togther.

I was going to bring Willow on the walk this morning but she looked at me like I was crazy.  She is not into mornings and likes to sleep in.  Alfie is very much a morning dog (and every other part of the day dog, since he is always moving.  I think this adds to her stress since her usual routine is totally messed up.

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 10:52:12 GMT -5 mekiakoo said:

I wonder how Alfie is with other dogs? The same as with Willow?

This sounds stressful. Is there any way to keep Alfie in one area of the house, like with a baby gate so they're separated but not kept in crate?

I thought of that but Alfie is apparently also part mountain goat.  I had pushed our couch over to block the doorway to the living room thinking that would keep him out.  Not so much.  I found him perched on the back of the couch.  Little stinker.  So he could easily jump a baby gate. 

We tried just closing the hall door but he paws and claws at it to try to get at Willow. 

ETA:  On walks he growls and barks at everything.  People, cars, dogs, bikes. Reaction to all is about the same so I am pretty sure a big part of all this is that he is unsure of himself.  So it comes across as aggression.  He also barks and growls at the swiffer, the vaccuum (running or not running), the neighbor mowing his lawn, anything new and different. 

[darkling_glory]

How did you introduce them?

I keep all my fosters separate for an entire week or more. There is NO off leash playtime for the first week. Lots and lots of walks together, but limited time otherwise.

I'm on my phone, but I have lots of advice that I'll post in a bit.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards

[nomad100]

loonylunalovegood No go on the baby gate. Alfie can jump at least 3 feet high. Little mother effer. See my post about about him being able to jump onto the back of the couch without any trouble.

Oh, we never plan to leave them unsupervised. I did that once when I went to the garage freezer for 30 seconds to get a popscicle and came back to a dustup.

Willow could give it to him but since since he acts like a puppy, she is treating him like a puppy. Meaning she is trying to teach him versus putting him in his place. He has bitten her hard enough to make her yelp but she hasn't done the same to him. This is how she acts with the puppies (or any young dog) at the dog park. She doesn't hurt them, she uses her weight to pin them down to try to get them to relax and chill out. Now if an adult dog did that same behavior to her, she would put the smack down on them and make them yelp to show who was in charge and that the behavior would not be tolerated.

My poor Willow. She looks at us like "why did you bring this crazy dog into our house?"

ETA:  I see your photo.   It might be something we can do in one of the bedrooms but we would have to empty it out of stuff he could destroy.  He may just have to hang in his crate for more hours in the day than he is out.

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 11:02:42 GMT -5 darkling_glory said:

How did you introduce them?

I keep all my fosters separate for an entire week or more. There is NO off leash playtime for the first week. Lots and lots of walks together, but limited time otherwise.

I'm on my phone, but I have lots of advice that I'll post in a bit.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards

I will take any and all advice you have to give. 

We introduced them like we have introduced all the other dogs that have stayed at our home.  We took them for a long walk starting out on opposite sides of the street moving in the same direction, slowly getting closer over time unti we we walking near each other with Willow in the front.  We then moved to the front yard and did some on leash play.  Then we moved into the house, still on leash and let them eat their dinner still on leash since it was about 7 pm.  After dinner, we moved into the back yard.  They were on leash for the first 5 minutes and were getting along.  We let them off and they were doing their own thing and then Alfie tried to hump Willow and she gave him a warning.  He didn't read the cue, attempted to bite her feet and another warning.  Another humping (yes, he is neutered) attempt and it was on.  Since then, things haven't improved and we are now keeping them separate as much as possible. 

We have had several dogs stay at the house with us before and this is the first time that this usual intro hasn't worked.  And this is part of the reason I am at a loss.   

I know it isn't their fault but I am a bit peeved with the rescue since we were very clear that Willow was a very dominant female and that a dominant male would not be a good idea.   I am sure that they thought that since he was so much littler than she is it wouldn't be an issue but he is freaking relentless. He tries to get at her through closed doors (pawing and whining) and if she is outside, he paws at the glass to get out. 

[Deleted]

I would do all walks together because walking = bonding.

[Jalapeñomel]

Crate train the new dog. Any time the dog is out of the kennel, put him on a leash and keep him with you. When you don't want him on the leash, put him back in the kennel. Any interaction between the two dogs needs to be controlled by you.

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 11:34:37 GMT -5 doglove said:

I would do all walks together because walking = bonding.

In an ideal world, I would love to do that but I can say right now that won't happen, mainly because neither DH or I feel comfortable walking the two of them together alone right now. 

DH leaves for work before I do and I work too far to come home to do the lunch walk with him.  The evening walk is when we are all home and DH can take 1 dog and I can take the other.

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 11:46:00 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Crate train the new dog. Any time the dog is out of the kennel, put him on a leash and keep him with you. When you don't want him on the leash, put him back in the kennel. Any interaction between the two dogs needs to be controlled by you.

We are definitely going to do this with the leash.

And he is crate trained and that is where he is when we are at work or we cannot supervise him directly (i.e., have him with us in the room we are in).  Thankfully, he doesn't fuss much when we put him in there.

[darkling_glory]

Jun 18, 2013 11:28:34 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

Jun 18, 2013 11:02:42 GMT -5 darkling_glory said:

How did you introduce them?

I keep all my fosters separate for an entire week or more. There is NO off leash playtime for the first week. Lots and lots of walks together, but limited time otherwise.

I'm on my phone, but I have lots of advice that I'll post in a bit.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards

I will take any and all advice you have to give. 

We introduced them like we have introduced all the other dogs that have stayed at our home.  We took them for a long walk starting out on opposite sides of the street moving in the same direction, slowly getting closer over time unti we we walking near each other with Willow in the front.  We then moved to the front yard and did some on leash play.  Then we moved into the house, still on leash and let them eat their dinner still on leash since it was about 7 pm.  After dinner, we moved into the back yard.  They were on leash for the first 5 minutes and were getting along.  We let them off and they were doing their own thing and then Alfie tried to hump Willow and she gave him a warning.  He didn't read the cue, attempted to bite her feet and another warning.  Another humping (yes, he is neutered) attempt and it was on.  Since then, things haven't improved and we are now keeping them separate as much as possible. 

We have had several dogs stay at the house with us before and this is the first time that this usual intro hasn't worked.  And this is part of the reason I am at a loss.   

I know it isn't their fault but I am a bit peeved with the rescue since we were very clear that Willow was a very dominant female and that a dominant male would not be a good idea.   I am sure that they thought that since he was so much littler than she is it wouldn't be an issue but he is freaking relentless. He tries to get at her through closed doors (pawing and whining) and if she is outside, he paws at the glass to get out. 

You started out really well! Where I think you went wrong is that you let them into the yard the same day. 

I know hindsight is 20/20 but this is what I would have done and what I recommend doing with any other fosters. 

Start exactly as you did with the walks and the leash. 

After the longest walk you and the dogs can stand, then bring the foster into the house and into their own space. For us, we use our office with a baby-gate (or the door closed if they're a jumper). They have a bed, food, water, crate, etc... in the office. We then rotate paying attention to each dog separately. They get fed separately, etc... If you use a baby gate to keep them separated, I suggest putting some blankets or towels over it. They'll know that each other is there, but there is no eye contact - just smell at this poing. 

That is day 1. 

The next day, again take the longest walks you can stand and back to their own separate quarters. Your permanent dog should be feeling pretty at ease since her routine is not disrupted much (the less the better) at all. I use a blanket over the gate for the second day as well. Rotate attention again - working with each dog on tricks and such with their favorite treats. 

Day 3 is when I might do some on-leash play. Keep up with the walks and after a long one give them a chance to interact. I try to keep this at 20 minutes and my husband and I each tether a dog to us. This could be in the yard or could be in your living room. Wherever you have room.

After 20 minutes - off to their own spaces. 

Lather, rinse, repeat. Some of my foster dogs were never given off-leash time because my Dozer is alpha-male. But they had their own safe spaces that they could retreat to and it worked well. I also NEVER turned my back on a foster and my pup. If I was cooking or something and husband wasn't home - then off to their separate quarters. 

I think what your problem is goes towards how soon you gave Alfie free reign of the house. He learned no boundaries from you or your husband. Just - "mine now!" 

I hope this helps and I hope that you'll not stop fostering because of one bad experience. Introductions like this should not be rushed and while some dogs will get along like peas and carrots from day 1 - most won't. 

Oh! And I'm sure you know this already, but if you haven't pick up any and all toys! Don't give them anything to fight over. 

I really hope this helps!

ETA: Your description of him as relentless makes me think he's not getting enough exercise - physical and mental. Try some obedience training with him to tire him out. Or get him a tug-a-jug to eat out of. 

[nomad100]

darkling_glory Thanks for the info. I probably should have added that we think he is part terrier and part some type of herding breed. Which is where I think some of that relentless stuff comes in.

Re; Toys. This is what is so weird. They don't fight over toys. Never have from the beginning. But we have put away Willow's favorite toy so I think that helps. They have played tug together very nicely while we have supervised. But once Alfie gets excited and tries to bite her feet/ankles, it like the "let's get ready to rumble" sign gets turned on. She has no patience for that. She gives him at least 2 or 3 warning growls and barks but he just doesn't get the message.

Here is a question for you. How do you get a dog that has no interest at all in treats/food to focus for things like training? The only thing that Alfie really likes is to play tug. But playing tug gets him ramped up and then he can't focus. We have a Wobbler and Alfie showed no interest in it at all. Willow even tried to show him how it all worked since she freaking loves that thing. Nope. Nothing. The rescue was pretty adamant that they get no "people food" so not sure if boiled chicken would fall under that category. (this dog doesn't even seem to like peanut butter. What kind of dog doesn't like peanut butter? ) Willow is a dog that loves just about anything edible so we don't have a ton of store bought treats since we use fruits and veggies as training treats for her. Alfie in not into veggies at all and was pretty blah on the bananas and strawberries we tried yesterday.

I don't think this has turned us off to fostering but our first priority is Willow and if fostering stresses her out to much (she has some health issues that could potentiall be make worse by too much stress) then it just isn't in the cards. We just haven't run into a dog that she hasn't been able to share a space with before.

ETA:  We are dying that we can't bring him to our off leash dog park since I think an early morning session when the park is empty and he can run himself ragged would be great but the rescue doesn't allow it.  When we got Willow the dog park saved us because she had so much energy. 

[darkling_glory]

You can try people food, so long as it's not from your plate/while you're eating. That's likely what the rescue is concerned about.

The smelly-er the treat, the better. Liverwurst has worked well for me.

It sounds like you need to be a little more proactive about separating them when he starts biting. Don't wait for Willow to put him in his place. The first nip means playtime is over! Separate!

If he's still on leash, that makes it easier to do.

It will take time but he'll start to catch on that if he bites, then the game is over.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards

[nomad100]

darkling_glory

Thanks for all the tips. I think I will start with chicken since liverwurst makes me gag. The stench. It's too much.

I told DH that there will be some new rules starting tonight and he is all on board. Here's hoping keeping them separate and only allowing them to interact while on leashes helps.

He really is a funny little guy. But he may be a dog that ultimately is best as the only dog in the home. Only time will tell, right?

[darkling_glory]

Jun 18, 2013 13:52:10 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

darkling_glory

Thanks for all the tips. I think I will start with chicken since liverwurst makes me gag. The stench. It's too much.

I told DH that there will be some new rules starting tonight and he is all on board. Here's hoping keeping them separate and only allowing them to interact while on leashes helps.

He really is a funny little guy. But he may be a dog that ultimately is best as the only dog in the home. Only time will tell, right?

Good luck! Keep us posted. I'm not a professional or anything, just someone who enjoys fostering. You can do it!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards

[Xyz]

Can you run him on a looooong leash? Our crazy herding beast needed to be run on a 50 foot traing lead like 4 times a day, every day until he was 3 to alleviate his hyperactivity. We couldn't let him off cause he would disappear and there were no dog parks nearby. But he would chase sticks a such on a long leash for hours and finally tire out.

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 14:10:22 GMT -5 Xyz said:

Can you run him on a looooong leash? Our crazy herding beast needed to be run on a 50 foot traing lead like 4 times a day, every day until he was 3 to alleviate his hyperactivity. We couldn't let him off cause he would disappear and there were no dog parks nearby. But he would chase sticks a such on a long leash for hours and finally tire out.

We don't have a big enough open space for that long of a leash but I may have access to a large space that we could drive him to.  How did you find the time to do that 4 times a day?  We walk Alfie almost 2 hours a day and are playing/training with him at least another hour in the house.  We are having trouble getting our usual stuff done around the house/yard since we don't usually have to spend so much time working with Willow.

We have been doing alot of the tug game to help tire Alfie out since he doesn't get the concept of fetch at all.  He just looks at DH or I when we throw the ball like we are crazy. 

[nomad100]

Jun 18, 2013 14:52:38 GMT -5 Xyz said:

We also made one of these. notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/04/24/flirt-pole/

OMG, we are so making one of those flirt poles.  Alfie would freaking love it.  He thinks that chase, leaping and tug are the best things in life so this is perfect.

Thanks!