Pacing for marathon long training runs

[Wines Not Whines]

Assuming I run a marathon this year, it will be my third. I've never quite grasped the concept of running your long training runs at a much slower pace than your goal pace. How does running for 20 miles at a slow pace translate into running 26.2 miles 1-2 min/mile faster? I was reading some articles about this last night, and it seems like the key is to do one or two runs per week at MP pace or faster, so you train yourself to run fast at shorter distances, without wearing yourself out by running fast for long distances. The point of the long slow distance is to get more time on your feet, so your total marathon race time isn't *that* much longer than your 20-mile training run at LSD pace. Does that sound right?

This hasn't quite worked for me in the past (there hasn't been a huge difference between my marathon pace and my training pace), but I never really did speed/tempo runs as part of marathon training before. I'm hoping incorporating some faster runs will help. But I'm still dubious that I can do my slow runs at a 10:00 pace and then run at a 9:00 pace on race day.

What does H&F think about this? Does it really work?  

[katinthehat]

I've never done a marathon before, but that's the whole purpose of a tempo run. Tempos are done at or slightly faster than race pace to create a race stimulation and to get your body used to moving at that pace for a slightly extended time period. If you can't pull off 8 miles at MP, then you should certainly reconsider your marathon goal. That's why I think it's key to have a variety of workouts in your plan, intervals, tempos, long runs and recovery runs. They all serve a purpose, leading up to a great marathon race day.

And JMO, but I don't understand training at your race pace. I think if you can run 20 miles at race pace, then you can run the race faster, factoring in the race day pump, fans, etc.

Oh, and another point. The problem, if you will, with a lot of marathon plans is that your long run makes up a good 40-50% of your weekly mileage. So if you pick a plan like that, then yes, it's going to be hard to go from 10:00 minute miles to 9:00 minute miles. If you follow a plan that incorporates speed work and where the long run is less than 30% of your weekly mileage total, then your body is going to be used to doing the majority of it's mileage at a faster pace.

Kind of like baking a cake, if your plan consists mostly of long slow runs, it's like baking a cake with just flour. You'll end up with nothing but burnt flour. But if you have a variety of runs and a variety of paces, you'll end up with the right balance for a good cake, or marathon day.

[thom]

I think you've got the reasoning right. I'm not an expert on this stuff either, but here's my take...

Doing some long runs at a slow pace is important just to build time on your feet. However, I don't think it's bad to do some long runs faster (maybe 10-20 seconds slower than goal pace). I also like to do some (maybe every 2nd or 3rd long run) as a progression run.

I'll run truly easy for the first half, and then I'll start speeding up, aiming to finish with the last 3-5 miles near goal pace.

For my 20 milers I usually try to just lock in to a comfortable pace. I have been able to get faster this way. As example - I ran a 9:21 pace in my June marathon, and I ran my 20 mile run at just over 10 min miles. Most of my other long runs probably averaged closer to 9:45 pace. And I would do shorter runs during the week at goal pace and speed work with tempo or repeats at 5K - 10K pace. Plus shorter easy runs.

The biggest thing I found is I needed to pay attention to my body for long run pacing. If I was feeling exhausted and went slow - it was ok. I was still getting in the miles. If I felt good & wanted to push the pace, I would.

Finally, on race day I went in with the mentality that I would push the pace. I started at a reasonable pace, but I also knew that it wouldn't feel like a typical long run. I would be tired by halfway. I guess it's a no-brainer to some, but to really go after my goal time I had to realize it was going to hurt & that was ok.


Good luck with training!

[ebeth]

you will need to practice your marathon pace. you don't need to practice it every week. the plan I'm working off of has miles (~60% of long run) at GMP every 2-3 weeks. also, longer tempos at HM pace.

this has worked for me for halfs.

[taratru]

All I know is I got significantly faster and more confident when my long runs were only about 30-45 seconds slower than goal pace. I also did a bunch of MP and tempo runs that ended up faster than they "should" have been, which made me faster on race day.

For my first, my long runs were 1-1:30 min slower and I did no pace or tempo work.

[gt7301b]

I've only run one marathon and my marathon pace was almost exactly my training pace. I ran no marathon pace miles and I think that was the "problem".

Mr. GT ran a significant portion of his long runs at marathon pace (maybe 10 of 20) miles and was able to PR by about 20 min last year.

[mrshandy]

Thanks for posting this. It's an interesting conversation. My goal for when I get back to training is to be more disciplined with my pacing.

I had trouble last marathon with keeping my pacing runs since it was in the midst of summer and really hot!

It's funny though, my best half marathon was my first before I really learned how to pace myself. I just ran every run fast. Of course I was training in the winter so that was a lot easier.