I'm curious on people's thoughts about this. I would classify myself as an athiest, and I have no problem with this being part of the museum/memorial. It's part of the history of that day, whether it's religious in nature or not. Maybe I'm a bad athiest, but I just get tired of people always looking for something to be up in arms about. Thoughts?
ETA: The lawsuit was apparently thrown out, but people are saying there are plans for an appeal.
Good Lord. (uhhh, is that a pun?) I just think all this religion shit is so annoying. I don't get all up in arms about seeing symbols for other religions that I am not a part of. What purpose does it serve to have this thing removed from the museum, aside from pacifying a small group of people who happen to believe differently than a lot of other people?
apalettepassion.wordpress.com/ WHO IS BONQUIQUI!?!?!?!??!
"I was thinking about getting off on demand, but it sounds like I should be glad that I didn't"
Plain and simply, Christians need to realize that not everyone is Christian. It's rubble, not divine intervention, and if it were in the shape of a pentagon or Dharmacakra that shit would be in the trash.
ETA- I'm not rah rah rah behind the lawsuit but that photo/wording is way more ridiculous. If Christians could imagine how upset they'd be about only one religion, that's not theirs, represented at a monument like this they'd be pissed. For the record I'm an antitheist.
Post by Ohhmm(bligo) on Sept 11, 2013 22:23:23 GMT -5
Atheist who doesn't care if there's a cross, but none of the people screaming about the lawsuit better be the people who were screaming about the Islamic Community Center. Atheist who also wants to know how sharing that picture will help stop the atheists. Is that like how posting 'purple' raises breast cancer awareness?
"You. You and your crazy life. You and your geographic anomaly. You and your drunken lesbianic ways and terrible navigational skills." - ProfArt and her holy baby
Atheist who doesn't care if there's a cross, but none of the people screaming about the lawsuit better be the people who were screaming about the Islamic Community Center. Atheist who also wants to know how sharing that picture will help stop the atheists. Is that like how posting 'purple' raises breast cancer awareness?
Post by ashbridemd on Sept 11, 2013 22:27:31 GMT -5
Who the fuck cares??? To many people, it's a symbol of comfort in a devastating time. It's not a fucking swastika for crying out loud. It doesn't stand for something evil. Why would anyone want to take away a feeling of comfort, just because it "offends" them, when it shouldn't even be offensive in the first place.
Fantastic. Then I'll just keep misinterpreting you. You will continue to get pissed off that I misinterpret you. And we'll go round and round in our big ole vat of misinterpretation.
Atheist who doesn't care if there's a cross, but none of the people screaming about the lawsuit better be the people who were screaming about the Islamic Community Center. Atheist who also wants to know how sharing that picture will help stop the atheists. Is that like how posting 'purple' raises breast cancer awareness?
I thought purple was autism and pink was breast cancer?
Atheist who doesn't care if there's a cross, but none of the people screaming about the lawsuit better be the people who were screaming about the Islamic Community Center. Atheist who also wants to know how sharing that picture will help stop the atheists. Is that like how posting 'purple' raises breast cancer awareness?
I am very in favor of the Islamic Community Center.
Post by ashbridemd on Sept 11, 2013 22:45:57 GMT -5
Being a Christian, I do know what it was used for. I think it can be interpreted different ways, and I believe a persons religious beliefs will definitely sway how they interpret it.
I personally believe it stands for all the good that came from Jesus sacrificing himself, and how his love changed lives. Others will see it a different way.
But it has long represented peace and comfort in the Christian community, and I don't know why ANYONE would want to take away the feeling of comfort after something as horrible as 9/11.
That being said, even as a Christina, I would have absolutely NO problem with any other religion wanting their symbol of peace and comfort displayed as well.
Post by juliagoulia on Sept 11, 2013 22:49:33 GMT -5
I was going to say if it was just put in the museum the way it was found that day, then it should be included like any other piece from the towers/ ground zero. But- the article said it's been trimmed, polished, and "Jesus" has been inscribed on it. So that changes my answer. It's been turned into a very specific religious shrine, so if public funds are what is used to operate this museum- no, I don't think it should be there unless all the other religions represented by people who lost their lives that day are, too.
Post by bonquiqui on Sept 11, 2013 22:49:59 GMT -5
Seriously stuff like this pisses me off. People are always trying to put their noses in other peoples business. If you don't like the cross, then fine, it means nothing to you. I happen to be atheist myself, but I have no problem with what other people do as long as they don't push their religion on me. This is a 9/11 artifact. Let it fucking be. Like people who bitch about gay marriage, no one fucking cares that you don't approve, because it does not affect you. Just let people be.
Last Edit: Sept 11, 2013 22:50:43 GMT -5 by bonquiqui
apalettepassion.wordpress.com/ WHO IS BONQUIQUI!?!?!?!??!
"I was thinking about getting off on demand, but it sounds like I should be glad that I didn't"
I was going to say if it was just put in the museum the way it was found that day, then it should be included like any other piece from the towers/ ground zero. But- the article said it's been trimmed, polished, and "Jesus" has been inscribed on it. So that changes my answer. It's been turned into a very specific religious shrine, so if public funds are what is used to operate this museum- no, I don't think it should be there unless all the other religions represented by people who lost their lives that day are, too.
I just read the article, and I agree with this.
steel beam in it's natural cross state = ok
"It was picked up, trimmed, polished, the word 'Jesus' was carved on top of it, it was prayed over in front of a church for five years, and then it was installed in the WTC memorial with no warning by a priest in a religious service where in the ground was consecrated." = not ok.
And I guess like all memes, it's really disingenuous to say "this was found in the rubble of 9-11" - because no - in that state it was not found in the rubble.
Seriously stuff like this pisses me off. People are always trying to put their noses in other peoples business. If you don't like the cross, then fine, it means nothing to you. I happen to be atheist myself, but I have no problem with what other people do as long as they don't push their religion on me. This is a 9/11 artifact. Let it fucking be. Like people who bitch about gay marriage, no one fucking cares that you don't approve, because it does not affect you. Just let people be.
Well kinda, but on the other hand this isn't other people's private business, this is a public monument that affected many people who don't subscribe to what this symbol means. I'm stuck in the middle in that I agree the lawsuit is a little ridiculous but this is pushing their religion on other people in a way, deceased people no less.
Post by bonquiqui on Sept 11, 2013 22:59:25 GMT -5
I don't think that it is pushing anything on anyone. It is just something that is there. Believe me, I hate when people try to push things on me, especially religion, but I don't see this is pushing anything on me. Money says "in god we trust" I don't believe in any god, but I don't believe that spending money is pushing anything on me. I just can't get it up for something that obviously comforts so many, as being offensive. It doesn't offend me. It means nothing to me.
apalettepassion.wordpress.com/ WHO IS BONQUIQUI!?!?!?!??!
"I was thinking about getting off on demand, but it sounds like I should be glad that I didn't"
Well kinda, but on the other hand this isn't other people's private business, this is a public monument that affected many people who don't subscribe to what this symbol means. I'm stuck in the middle in that I agree the lawsuit is a little ridiculous but this is pushing their religion on other people in a way, deceased people no less.
I do get what you are saying, believe me I understand the argument, I just honestly don't think it is hurting anyone. If all the museum was, was religious paraphernalia that is one thing, but this is one piece of the metal that came from the towers. One piece.
Anyway, I suck at arguing, because I always have to go and feel bad. lol
apalettepassion.wordpress.com/ WHO IS BONQUIQUI!?!?!?!??!
"I was thinking about getting off on demand, but it sounds like I should be glad that I didn't"
I believe the issue is that Christianity is the only religion being represented. They want them to remove it or also represent other religious views.
"American Atheists' president, David Silverman, ....said that the museum should either remove the cross or acknowledge everybody else who died in the tragedy in a manner equal to Christians."
I think that is reasonable. If someone has other artifacts to represent their religion, then I don't see any issue with it. It's fair. I think some people argue simply to argue.
apalettepassion.wordpress.com/ WHO IS BONQUIQUI!?!?!?!??!
"I was thinking about getting off on demand, but it sounds like I should be glad that I didn't"
I don't think that it is pushing anything on anyone. It is just something that is there. Believe me, I hate when people try to push things on me, especially religion, but I don't see this is pushing anything on me. Money says "in god we trust" I don't believe in any god, but I don't believe that spending money is pushing anything on me. I just can't get it up for something that obviously comforts so many, as being offensive. It doesn't offend me. It means nothing to me.
I think this is where I am. You said it better than what I was trying to formulate in my head. No one is saying that people have to pray in front of the cross when they enter the room or anything. It's just there. Now, if people are actively trying to prevent symbols from other religions appearing in the museum, then we have a problem.
Gah...I have so many thoughts on this and it would take me hours to type out.
Being a Christian, I do know what it was used for. I think it can be interpreted different ways, and I believe a persons religious beliefs will definitely sway how they interpret it.
I personally believe it stands for all the good that came from Jesus sacrificing himself, and how his love changed lives. Others will see it a different way.
But it has long represented peace and comfort in the Christian community, and I don't know why ANYONE would want to take away the feeling of comfort after something as horrible as 9/11.
That being said, even as a Christina, I would have absolutely NO problem with any other religion wanting their symbol of peace and comfort displayed as well.
Thank god it wasn't an Obama sign. Those don't stand a chance.