What say yee? American flag related.

[ilovelamp]

I'm seeing this picture on FB today with the caption "Nobody does this anymore. What happened to our nation?" or "This should be mandatory in schools."

In my opinion, the pledge should be said and students can choose to sit out if they want. But it should never be mandatory, that defeats the whole purpose of your first amendment (you know the freedom of speech and religion part).

[JakJak]

Jun 21, 2012 21:38:43 GMT -5 ilovelamp said:

I'm seeing this picture on FB today with the caption "Nobody does this anymore. What happened to our nation?" or "This should be mandatory in schools."

In my opinion, the pledge should be said and students can choose to sit out if they want. But it should never be mandatory, that defeats the whole purpose of your first amendment (you know the freedom of speech and religion part).

I agree with you. I had a teacher in high school who made kids stand out of respect, but they didn't have to say anything or salute in any way.

[amaristella]

It's a nice tradition that I think should be a part of the curriculum but not mandatory. Plus, it's against some religions as it is seen as a form of idolatry.

[bigmamma]

Jun 21, 2012 21:38:43 GMT -5 ilovelamp said:

I'm seeing this picture on FB today with the caption "Nobody does this anymore. What happened to our nation?" or "This should be mandatory in schools."

In my opinion, the pledge should be said and students can choose to sit out if they want. But it should never be mandatory, that defeats the whole purpose of your first amendment (you know the freedom of speech and religion part).

I can't speak for every school in the Nation, but when BD and L were attending preschool (private) they said the pledge everyday and in BD's kindergarten class (public) they said it daily both schools are in Virginia. "Flag Holder" was one of the jobs the kids fought over.

I do think that the pledge should be said everyday. Maybe an opt out for Non-Citizens??

[prettyinpink]

Jun 21, 2012 21:44:13 GMT -5 JakJak said:

Jun 21, 2012 21:38:43 GMT -5 ilovelamp said:

I'm seeing this picture on FB today with the caption "Nobody does this anymore. What happened to our nation?" or "This should be mandatory in schools."

In my opinion, the pledge should be said and students can choose to sit out if they want. But it should never be mandatory, that defeats the whole purpose of your first amendment (you know the freedom of speech and religion part).

I agree with you. I had a teacher in high school who made kids stand out of respect, but they didn't have to say anything or salute in any way.

I agree. I think that everyone should stand out of respect but it if you have religious reasons against it you shouldn't be required to say it.

[basilosaurus]

I'm against it. First, I think the under god part is unconstitutional. Second, the forced allegiance part is a little too on the indoctrination side for me. What lesson are we teaching our kids to mindlessly recite something, to swear words they don't even understand? You can't force kids to say or respect anything. To do so kind of defeats the whole "liberty for all" bit.

There's a kid who made national news by refusing to stand and getting punished. He said there isn't justice for all as gays still can't get married, so he couldn't stand and recite what he believed to be untrue. Agree or disagree, I think it's great that a kid cares so strongly about something and is willing to be punished for it.

[bigmamma]

Jun 21, 2012 22:23:41 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm against it. First, I think the under god part is unconstitutional. Second, the forced allegiance part is a little too on the indoctrination side for me. What lesson are we teaching our kids to mindlessly recite something, to swear words they don't even understand? You can't force kids to say or respect anything. To do so kind of defeats the whole "liberty for all" bit.

There's a kid who made national news by refusing to stand and getting punished. He said there isn't justice for all as gays still can't get married, so he couldn't stand and recite what he believed to be untrue. Agree or disagree, I think it's great that a kid cares so strongly about something and is willing to be punished for it.

If kids are reciting mindlessly we are failing to teach them. My children know what the pledge means. They understand the words (well, Not K-baby, but the boys "get it"). Teaching them to understand and respect this principles this Country/ The Pledge are built on continues outside the classroom. I am NOT saying the government should dictate what "liberty and justice for all" is defined as within your nuclear family. The example you gave is great - the fight for Gay/Lesbian rights is being battled out right now because we have an inherent belief in "Liberty and Justice for ALL".

Would that kid have known his rights to protest if someone hadn't educated him on his liberties? I agree that what he did was a lawful protest, and by doing so he drew attention to his platform - however if the pledge was never taught, respected, recited he wouldn't have had his opportunity to protest.

I do not see anything wrong with inculcating our children in the American Way. To include our freedoms, rights and how to invoke those rights of protest and dissent without losing sight of our common thread as Americans. What the specifics of those lessons are - in my opinion - are up to the parents to teach. Schools lend some cultural balance (good to best case scenarios).

The "Under God" portion is an entire discussion in itself.

[basilosaurus]

So kids know what allegiance and indivisible mean? On those threads about what stupid things we thought when we were kids, a number of people mentioned how they said the pledge with entirely different words.

I think the values of our country, teaching citizenship, etc, should be learned in the classroom. I just disagree that recitation does it. I'm pretty sure the kid's protest didn't come from memorizing and reciting something every morning.

[bigmamma]

Jun 21, 2012 22:56:48 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

So kids know what allegiance and indivisible mean? On those threads about what stupid things we thought when we were kids, a number of people mentioned how they said the pledge with entirely different words.

I think the values of our country, teaching citizenship, etc, should be learned in the classroom. I just disagree that recitation does it. I'm pretty sure the kid's protest didn't come from memorizing and reciting something every morning.

I would hope that a teacher would go into an explanation of the words the children are reciting.

We took time to explain what the specific terms meant. I wouldn't want my kids to be "sheeple". We raise ours to ask questions, and keep digging til the reach answers they can understand.

I once said "L stop instigating" and a woman in the commissary laughed at me 'Like he knows what that means" L responded "Nuh-Huh I do - it means makin my brudder crazy and makin me laugh". he explained like a 5 year old - but it is the BASIC meaning of the word as it is relevant to him.

I didn't say his protest came from reciting the pledge - but it did come from having an understanding of what part of the pledge means - HE - brought his definition of "Liberty and Justice For All" into action by refusing to stand until HIS DEFINITION was met. It didn't come from MINDLESS recitation, but it did come from mindful comprehension. THAT has to start somewhere.

[amaristella]

Jun 21, 2012 22:56:48 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

So kids know what allegiance and indivisible mean? On those threads about what stupid things we thought when we were kids, a number of people mentioned how they said the pledge with entirely different words.

I think the values of our country, teaching citizenship, etc, should be learned in the classroom. I just disagree that recitation does it. I'm pretty sure the kid's protest didn't come from memorizing and reciting something every morning.

I realize that many kids start learning and doing it in Kindergarten but I specifically remember the "freedom folders" we made in fifth grade. We went line by line with the pledge, the declaration of independence and I think also the first verse of the national anthem learning what everything meant. Heck, to this day I still remember my teacher explaining tyranny, anarchy and a couple different spots in between. We went over all kinds of things pertaining to the basics of our society such as breaking the law and going to jail.

I would like to think that fifth grade teachers everywhere still educate their classes like that and if not then why can't we?

[VillainV]

Jun 21, 2012 22:41:24 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

Jun 21, 2012 22:23:41 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm against it. First, I think the under god part is unconstitutional. Second, the forced allegiance part is a little too on the indoctrination side for me. What lesson are we teaching our kids to mindlessly recite something, to swear words they don't even understand? You can't force kids to say or respect anything. To do so kind of defeats the whole "liberty for all" bit.

There's a kid who made national news by refusing to stand and getting punished. He said there isn't justice for all as gays still can't get married, so he couldn't stand and recite what he believed to be untrue. Agree or disagree, I think it's great that a kid cares so strongly about something and is willing to be punished for it.

If kids are reciting mindlessly we are failing to teach them. My children know what the pledge means. They understand the words (well, Not K-baby, but the boys "get it"). Teaching them to understand and respect this principles this Country/ The Pledge are built on continues outside the classroom. I am NOT saying the government should dictate what "liberty and justice for all" is defined as within your nuclear family. The example you gave is great - the fight for Gay/Lesbian rights is being battled out right now because we have an inherent belief in "Liberty and Justice for ALL".

Would that kid have known his rights to protest if someone hadn't educated him on his liberties? I agree that what he did was a lawful protest, and by doing so he drew attention to his platform - however if the pledge was never taught, respected, recited he wouldn't have had his opportunity to protest.

I do not see anything wrong with inculcating our children in the American Way. To include our freedoms, rights and how to invoke those rights of protest and dissent without losing sight of our common thread as Americans. What the specifics of those lessons are - in my opinion - are up to the parents to teach. Schools lend some cultural balance (good to best case scenarios).

The "Under God" portion is an entire discussion in itself.

I completely agree, though I doubt I could have worded it as well as bigmamma did.

The Pledge of Allegiance is an important part of our American culture. I believe that it SHOULD be taught in schools, and that every American should understand what it means, the history of it (when "under God" was added and why). It should be recited in schools, with each child able to CHOOSE if they want to participate or not (and not be coerced into participating if they don't want to).

I vividly remember a child in my class from 2nd-5th grade who sat out the Pledge every morning for religious reasons. I even remember having a classroom discussion about how the Pledge was symbolic of his freedom to religion, and that "liberty and justice for all" PROTECTED his ability to remain seated while the Pledge was recited. This was a pretty deep discussion for a second-grade class, but it obviously stuck with me.

[sookie]

Jun 21, 2012 22:41:24 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

Jun 21, 2012 22:23:41 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm against it. First, I think the under god part is unconstitutional. Second, the forced allegiance part is a little too on the indoctrination side for me. What lesson are we teaching our kids to mindlessly recite something, to swear words they don't even understand? You can't force kids to say or respect anything. To do so kind of defeats the whole "liberty for all" bit.

There's a kid who made national news by refusing to stand and getting punished. He said there isn't justice for all as gays still can't get married, so he couldn't stand and recite what he believed to be untrue. Agree or disagree, I think it's great that a kid cares so strongly about something and is willing to be punished for it.

If kids are reciting mindlessly we are failing to teach them. My children know what the pledge means. They understand the words (well, Not K-baby, but the boys "get it"). Teaching them to understand and respect this principles this Country/ The Pledge are built on continues outside the classroom. I am NOT saying the government should dictate what "liberty and justice for all" is defined as within your nuclear family. The example you gave is great - the fight for Gay/Lesbian rights is being battled out right now because we have an inherent belief in "Liberty and Justice for ALL".

Would that kid have known his rights to protest if someone hadn't educated him on his liberties? I agree that what he did was a lawful protest, and by doing so he drew attention to his platform - however if the pledge was never taught, respected, recited he wouldn't have had his opportunity to protest.

I do not see anything wrong with inculcating our children in the American Way. To include our freedoms, rights and how to invoke those rights of protest and dissent without losing sight of our common thread as Americans. What the specifics of those lessons are - in my opinion - are up to the parents to teach. Schools lend some cultural balance (good to best case scenarios).

The "Under God" portion is an entire discussion in itself.

I agree with this. Just like with anything else, we need to teach our kids what they're saying, and the pledge is something I would hope the kids would know. If the teacher doesn't explain it, the parents should. I've sat in on a class where the teacher had made it known you didn't have to say the US pledge or the Texas pledge (both are said daily here), but you would stand in silence and not be messing with anything during them. It's just like how children are taught the Lord's Prayer in church - you can't just tell them the words, you have to help them understand the meaning behind the words. I'm not trying to bring religion into the debate on this, it's just an example of reciting words you're told to say.

However, I feel there are a number of older kids who don't say the pledge because it makes them feel cool. It's not that they disagree with it, they just don't feel like it, and I don't think that's right.

[nsl]

Where are these schools where they don't say the pledge? It's part of the daily announcements at the school where I teach and at the school my boys attend. I know we said it daily all through K-12 when I was a kid (in another state) and have heard anecdotally from teacher friends around the country that (particularly post-September 11) it's part of their daily routine as well.

FWIW, I don't require my students to stand or recite the pledge if they choose not to. I teach a large number off non-citizens as well as students who take issue with the "under God" portion of the pledge. When I teach rhetoric to my American Literature class we break it down line-by-line and discuss both what the pledge is saying as well as the argumentative strategies it employs. It's always an interesting discussion.

[ilovelamp]

Yeah, I'm not sure what schools the people on FB were talking about. Seems to me like they are exaggerating.

[audette]

Jun 21, 2012 22:01:09 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

I do think that the pledge should be said everyday. Maybe an opt out for Non-Citizens??

As a non-citizen, I think it's perfectly appropriate to expect that I show respect when the Pledge is being recited. I view it as on par with the way that I should treat national anthems.

When it is being said, I stand still, and face the American flag. I just don't put my hand over my heart or recite the words. I've had to explain that behaviour a few times, but generally people are understanding when I mention I'm not a citizen.


Assuming DH and I have kids, they will be dual-citizens. I'm not sure what impact that might have for something like this, and I suspect that's a bridge we'll cross if and when we get there.