My hometown is 125 years old.

[Dumbledork]

They're doing a weekend-long celebration of it. There was a parade today, and a former classmate posted this picture from it.

Smh.

[ilovelamp]

What state did God grace us with here?

[JakJak]

Lol did they go to the same parade I did today?? Every other car had a confederate flag waving...

[Dumbledork]

Jun 30, 2012 19:46:40 GMT -5 ilovelamp said:

What state did God grace us with here?

Let's just say the midwest.

[kpol]

I'm always so surprised at how different the southern half of the state is compared to the northern part!

[Dumbledork]

Jun 30, 2012 21:33:53 GMT -5 kpol said:

I'm always so surprised at how different the southern half of the state is compared to the northern part!

Oh, we're most definitely in the Northern half of the state.

[twoslicehilly]

Shaking your head because you think the confederate flag represents racism??

[ilovelamp]

Well it is very surprising that she's in the Midwest and not the south.

[MrsAggie]

In the south, the Confederate flag is a symbol of southern pride. There are people who will abuse any symbol. The swastika actually means "to be good" but was tarnished by the Nazis. I don't personally own a Confederate flag (I'm not that redneck) but I think people really blow things out of proportion. They also have the Gadsden flag below it which is also popular and relates to our freedom from the British. Again, it's all a pride thing.

[basilosaurus]

Pride in a racist history. Got it.

I don't care what the origin of any of these symbols is because they have evolved to have a different meaning. We don't live a few hundred years ago. We live in the present, and those symbols are now powerfully representative of really bad things.

I highly doubt you'd see a black person in the south displaying a confederate flag to show pride in their state, nor would you find a jew displaying a swastika on an entry mat to imply "to be good." Why shouldn't they if the more distant history is all that matters?

[MrsAggie]

Why don't you do a google search and then tell me that you'd never see a black person displaying a confederate flag. I'm telling you that most of the time the intentions are harmless. It's not personally my cup of tea but I won't get my panties in a bunch over it.

[twoslicehilly]

I agree with mrs.aggie. Just for the record, people in all areas of the country owned slaves. From what I can remember, the North had more laws on it than the South. The south wasn't fighting to keep slaves.
The entire country has made mistakes. Wether it be slavery, or the way the Japanese were treated after Pearl Harbor. I don't think it's fair that the Southern Confederate Flag is immediately pegged for racism. It's a symbol of the South. It's a symbol of our history and what we've been through. No, we don't have a confederacy any more, but why should certain parts of history die because they were linked later on with negativity by nay sayers?
I don't own a confederate flag because we aren't in a confederacy, and it's kind of pointless, I don't shoot down any one that does because I know what it represents and what it doesn't.

[sookie]

Jul 1, 2012 16:40:59 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Pride in a racist history. Got it.

I don't care what the origin of any of these symbols is because they have evolved to have a different meaning. We don't live a few hundred years ago. We live in the present, and those symbols are now powerfully representative of really bad things.

I highly doubt you'd see a black person in the south displaying a confederate flag to show pride in their state, nor would you find a jew displaying a swastika on an entry mat to imply "to be good." Why shouldn't they if the more distant history is all that matters?

www.theblaze.com/stories/black-college-student-wins-fight-to-display-confederate-flag-in-dorm-room/ HTH

I don't own one because I'm just not interested in owning one. Mr. Sookie is from the north, so it's not like he wants to have one either. I agree with the others that it's unfortunate a symbol can be so tarnished by someone using it inappropriately, but it happens. It doesn't rewrite the entire history of said symbol.

[kcd0531]

Jul 1, 2012 16:40:59 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Pride in a racist history. Got it.

I don't care what the origin of any of these symbols is because they have evolved to have a different meaning. We don't live a few hundred years ago. We live in the present, and those symbols are now powerfully representative of really bad things.

I highly doubt you'd see a black person in the south displaying a confederate flag to show pride in their state, nor would you find a jew displaying a swastika on an entry mat to imply "to be good." Why shouldn't they if the more distant history is all that matters?

Wow. Talk about lumping people in a group because of something that you have come to associate categorically regardless of intention. That, to me, is ignorant and hard-headed.

[heightsyankee]

Jul 1, 2012 16:23:03 GMT -5 MrsAggie said:

In the south, the Confederate flag is a symbol of southern pride. There are people who will abuse any symbol. The swastika actually means "to be good" but was tarnished by the Nazis. I don't personally own a Confederate flag (I'm not that redneck) but I think people really blow things out of proportion. They also have the Gadsden flag below it which is also popular and relates to our freedom from the British. Again, it's all a pride thing.

Right- and NOW in 2012, the Swastika represents anti-semitism and attempted genocide, even though it was present in hundreds, if not thousands, of years of history before the Nazis claimed it. No one looks at the Swastika and thinks "American Indian healing ritual." And racists have taken over the visage of the Confederate flag and changed the meaning in American popular culture. There is great history to the flag yes, although not as lengthy as the Swastika. However, the meaning has been usurped and there is only one reason to fly the stars'n'bars now and we all know what that is...

[MrsAggie]

The stars n' bars is a different flag. I believe you're confused, yankee. If anyone was going to regard the swastika as it's true meaning, then it would be the American Indians, right? It's a part of their history and they shouldn't be ashamed of old healing rituals because of a modern opinion. The confederate battle flag is a part of southern American history and if you don't like it, then don't fly the flag and move on with your life.

[Deleted]

Why would anyone in the midwest identify with this flag?

[ttt]

Jul 1, 2012 16:23:03 GMT -5 MrsAggie said:

In the south, the Confederate flag is a symbol of southern pride. There are people who will abuse any symbol. The swastika actually means "to be good" but was tarnished by the Nazis. I don't personally own a Confederate flag (I'm not that redneck) but I think people really blow things out of proportion. They also have the Gadsden flag below it which is also popular and relates to our freedom from the British. Again, it's all a pride thing.

I was born and raised in Georgia and sorry, this is BS. The Confederate flag is heavy with racist associations in the South too.

[teflep]

Jul 1, 2012 16:23:03 GMT -5 MrsAggie said:

In the south, the Confederate flag is a symbol of southern pride. There are people who will abuse any symbol. The swastika actually means "to be good" but was tarnished by the Nazis. I don't personally own a Confederate flag (I'm not that redneck) but I think people really blow things out of proportion. They also have the Gadsden flag below it which is also popular and relates to our freedom from the British. Again, it's all a pride thing.

No, it's not. ywia

[teflep]

Jul 1, 2012 19:20:36 GMT -5 twoslicehilly said:

I agree with mrs.aggie. Just for the record, people in all areas of the country owned slaves. From what I can remember, the North had more laws on it than the South. The south wasn't fighting to keep slaves.
The entire country has made mistakes. Wether it be slavery, or the way the Japanese were treated after Pearl Harbor. I don't think it's fair that the Southern Confederate Flag is immediately pegged for racism. It's a symbol of the South. It's a symbol of our history and what we've been through. No, we don't have a confederacy any more, but why should certain parts of history die because they were linked later on with negativity by nay sayers?
I don't own a confederate flag because we aren't in a confederacy, and it's kind of pointless, I don't shoot down any one that does because I know what it represents and what it doesn't.

So, let's celebrate it? Ugh, please, open a history book and do us all a favor. The confederate flag is just that, for the confederacy (a section wanting to break off of the Union because they were pissed as shit at Lincoln, etc)....the pride should be in the US flag, not a dead flag of a section of the country that was hellbent on destroying it.

[ttt]

Jul 1, 2012 19:20:36 GMT -5 twoslicehilly said:

I agree with mrs.aggie. Just for the record, people in all areas of the country owned slaves. From what I can remember, the North had more laws on it than the South. The south wasn't fighting to keep slaves.
The entire country has made mistakes. Wether it be slavery, or the way the Japanese were treated after Pearl Harbor. I don't think it's fair that the Southern Confederate Flag is immediately pegged for racism. It's a symbol of the South. It's a symbol of our history and what we've been through. No, we don't have a confederacy any more, but why should certain parts of history die because they were linked later on with negativity by nay sayers?
I don't own a confederate flag because we aren't in a confederacy, and it's kind of pointless, I don't shoot down any one that does because I know what it represents and what it doesn't.

Look, if the Ku Klux Klan uses your flag as their symbol, it's racist. Sorry.

[Dumbledork]

Jul 2, 2012 22:39:06 GMT -5 @notquiteblushing said:

Why would anyone in the midwest identify with this flag?

Our school mascot used to be (nearly 10 years ago) a Rebel, but it definitely goes past school pride. I remember when the T.Martin case was new in the news CE&P discussed how a derogatory term wasn't used much any more (I think it was coon). I heard that and several other terms often growing up and still hear them when I visit. Not from my family. Just people in town.

Also, one of the big reasons the school was forced to change mascots was because we played an all-AA team from farther North. That school found out about our mascot (and tendency to run the endzone waving the flag after a td) and refused to play us. It got news coverage and several people from town were interviewed in an outrage because "It's not racist! It's just a flag!" Yea a flag that represents a section of the country that was so hellbent on continuing to treat human beings like scum that they thought it was worth treason.

I don't think they identify with it being heritage as much as the Southern states might, but they also don't seem to think it could ever be thought of as racist.

[beans]

I would like to thank CE&P for swooping in and making me feel like I'm not the one in here taking crazy pills.

I don't know if some people in this thread are being intentionally obtuse, are just being stubborn and digging their heels in, or really are ignorant of the situation/history.

If it *really truly* is about southern pride or state's rights, or some other such thing why don't you, I don't know, choose some other damn symbol that DOESN'T scream racism? It would be very easy to do that. Considering the history of the confederate flag (I know that there are also several versions) it can *never* go back to what y'all are arguing it is. Find some other symbol to fly. Shouldn't be a big deal, IMO.

[JakJak]

Jul 3, 2012 9:24:43 GMT -5 beans said:

I would like to thank CE&P for swooping in and making me feel like I'm not the one in here taking crazy pills.

I don't know if some people in this thread are being intentionally obtuse, are just being stubborn and digging their heels in, or really are ignorant of the situation/history.

If it *really truly* is about southern pride or state's rights, or some other such thing why don't you, I don't know, choose some other damn symbol that DOESN'T scream racism? It would be very easy to do that. Considering the history of the confederate flag (I know that there are also several versions) it can *never* go back to what y'all are arguing it is. Find some other symbol to fly. Shouldn't be a big deal, IMO.

:Y:

[brandienee]

Stan and Beans have said everything that I would try to say better than I could say it. I will never understand this "confederate pride" stuff.

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2012 9:20:58 GMT -5 Dumbledork said:

Jul 2, 2012 22:39:06 GMT -5 @notquiteblushing said:

Why would anyone in the midwest identify with this flag?

Our school mascot used to be (nearly 10 years ago) a Rebel, but it definitely goes past school pride. I remember when the T.Martin case was new in the news CE&P discussed how a derogatory term wasn't used much any more (I think it was coon). I heard that and several other terms often growing up and still hear them when I visit. Not from my family. Just people in town.

Also, one of the big reasons the school was forced to change mascots was because we played an all-AA team from farther North. That school found out about our mascot (and tendency to run the endzone waving the flag after a td) and refused to play us. It got news coverage and several people from town were interviewed in an outrage because "It's not racist! It's just a flag!" Yea a flag that represents a section of the country that was so hellbent on continuing to treat human beings like scum that they thought it was worth treason.

I don't think they identify with it being heritage as much as the Southern states might, but they also don't seem to think it could ever be thought of as racist.

I'm not sure you answered my question except to say that people in your town have always been racist?

I hadn't even heard the word coon until I saw To Kill A Mockingbird or some other such movie.

[Dumbledork]

Jul 3, 2012 9:45:22 GMT -5 @notquiteblushing said:

Jul 3, 2012 9:20:58 GMT -5 Dumbledork said:

Our school mascot used to be (nearly 10 years ago) a Rebel, but it definitely goes past school pride. I remember when the T.Martin case was new in the news CE&P discussed how a derogatory term wasn't used much any more (I think it was coon). I heard that and several other terms often growing up and still hear them when I visit. Not from my family. Just people in town.

Also, one of the big reasons the school was forced to change mascots was because we played an all-AA team from farther North. That school found out about our mascot (and tendency to run the endzone waving the flag after a td) and refused to play us. It got news coverage and several people from town were interviewed in an outrage because "It's not racist! It's just a flag!" Yea a flag that represents a section of the country that was so hellbent on continuing to treat human beings like scum that they thought it was worth treason.

I don't think they identify with it being heritage as much as the Southern states might, but they also don't seem to think it could ever be thought of as racist.

I'm not sure you answered my question except to say that people in your town have always been racist?

I hadn't even heard the word coon until I saw To Kill A Mockingbird or some other such movie.

Basically, yea. It's probably in the parade for school pride, so that's how they identify with it, but it goes way past that and into racist pride.

[msmerymac]

Jul 1, 2012 19:20:36 GMT -5 twoslicehilly said:

I agree with mrs.aggie. Just for the record, people in all areas of the country owned slaves. From what I can remember, the North had more laws on it than the South. The south wasn't fighting to keep slaves.
The entire country has made mistakes. Wether it be slavery, or the way the Japanese were treated after Pearl Harbor. I don't think it's fair that the Southern Confederate Flag is immediately pegged for racism. It's a symbol of the South. It's a symbol of our history and what we've been through. No, we don't have a confederacy any more, but why should certain parts of history die because they were linked later on with negativity by nay sayers?
I don't own a confederate flag because we aren't in a confederacy, and it's kind of pointless, I don't shoot down any one that does because I know what it represents and what it doesn't.

You must be joking.

This is from the "Declaration of Immediate Causes which May Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union," December 24, 1860.

Read carefully. This is one of the main reasons the State of South Carolina gave for SECEEDING FROM THE UNION and trying to destroy our country. YWIA.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

www.teachingushistory.org/pdfs/ImmCausesTranscription.pdf



And yes, the north originally allowed slavery. I have ancestors who owned slaves, in New York, in the 1790s, before it was abolished. the difference is that New York abolished slavery on its own and did not fight to break up the country in order to keep it.

[bettydraper]

Jul 3, 2012 9:24:43 GMT -5 beans said:

I would like to thank CE&P for swooping in and making me feel like I'm not the one in here taking crazy pills.

I don't know if some people in this thread are being intentionally obtuse, are just being stubborn and digging their heels in, or really are ignorant of the situation/history.

If it *really truly* is about southern pride or state's rights, or some other such thing why don't you, I don't know, choose some other damn symbol that DOESN'T scream racism? It would be very easy to do that. Considering the history of the confederate flag (I know that there are also several versions) it can *never* go back to what y'all are arguing it is. Find some other symbol to fly. Shouldn't be a big deal, IMO.

:Y: :Y: :Y:

[heightsyankee]

Jul 2, 2012 22:25:57 GMT -5 MrsAggie said:

The stars n' bars is a different flag. I believe you're confused, yankee. If anyone was going to regard the swastika as it's true meaning, then it would be the American Indians, right? It's a part of their history and they shouldn't be ashamed of old healing rituals because of a modern opinion. The confederate battle flag is a part of southern American history and if you don't like it, then don't fly the flag and move on with your life.

Well, I'll give you that one. I'm married to Texan and an Aggie (and a Longhorn). I've been in Texas for 17 years. I have routinely heard the Confederate battle flag also referred to as the Stars and Bars. I guess in the 125 years since the Civil War, all the symbols of the South have blurred in to one narrative. A racist narrative, BTW.

ETA: I am very immersed in Native American culture via my husband. No, Indians no longer use the Swastika in their art or powwow regalia. The only time you're going to openly see the Swastika in Indian dress or craft is at the NMAI.