s/o parent guilt: preschool & kindergarten applications

[anna7602]

That's annoying about the cut-off. But it sounds like this is going to be an issue whenever you transfer into a post-daycare school system, regardless of whether you do it for pre-school or wait until Kindergarten. If you already know you have to tack an extra year on to his schooling (if I am understanding all of this correctly), I would be inclined to just switch him now to a place you might like better and where you will be saving money, to boot.

Or would he be able to start K a whole year earlier regardless of the birthday if he stays in private daycare?

How much he likes where he is now may also influence my opinion. If he's unhappy or just doesn't seem too into school, I would definitely switch him asap.

[vanillacourage]

I think I don't understand your OP.  When will he enter K if he stays in private?  Wouldn't the age cut-off be the same no matter which option you choose?

Honestly, thinking that there is no curriculum needed in pre-K is just incorrect (sorry!).  Especially if your public schools have initiated the Common Core curriculum, they are expected to do SO MUCH by the end of their year at K, if they don't come in knowing quite a bit from pre-K they will be pretty far behind.  DS1 started K this year and at meet-the-teacher night, his teacher said that literally, "K is the new 1st grade".  DS1 has a June birthday and already can read simple books (Dr. Seuss, etc) and do basic math because he is pushed so hard in class.

ETA - I would avoid keeping him in pre-K an extra year and then switching him to public right into 1st grade.  For us, DS1's biggest adjustment issues were based on differences between daycare/pre-K and an elementary school like the schedule, bathroom breaks, etc.  If your kid is the same, he would have an even rougher transition because he'd be joining a group already accustomed to attending that physical school.

[SusanBAnthony]

So we have a slightly similar situation with DS. Sept baby, so he misses the K cut-off. In his case he has dev. Delays, so he was in the school's preschool for that reason. They started him in the 3's class at age 2.9, which meant he did 3 full years of preschool. Because so many people red shirt, he was not alone in this, and had many other fall birthday kids who did three years of preschool with him. In fact, his preschool had a special class of fall birthday kids and red shirted kids for the last year before K.

I have no idea what your area is like, but I doubt you are the only one with his problem. If it was me, I wouldn't hesitate to switch him to the preschool you prefer sooner rather than later. And I bet you anything, a good chunk of he kids he starts preschool with will wait a third year and be in K with him.

[catbus]

I'm also a little confused, but am very interested since obviously we're dealing with the same systems.

So, here are my thoughts: E and Thor are the same age. Right now, they can't enter SPS until fall 2018, right? Because they have to be five years old on September 1 to enter kindergarten. Obviously we're realllly early in the process, but one small reason I'm considering private elementary school is that they're more flexible with starting ages, and (assuming he's ready) I think they'd let E start fall 2017, when he's almost five years old. Obviously if he's not ready we will start him in 2018, but he will be on the older side of his class (because AFAIK, redshirting isn't so much a thing here, but I could be wrong).

ANYWAY, I also am open to considering other preschool options that aren't associated with our daycare, but my concern is finding an option that still caters to working parents. So many of the programs I hear great things about are smack in the middle of the morning, and it's expected that parents can pick up or have some other magical option for care. It stresses me out. 

Edit: All that to say that the daycare option is so easy that for now, I'm assuming we'll stick with it. I do plan to do further research fairly soon. Unfortunately, the people I know with preschool experience around here either just went with the easiest option without much thought to a philosophy or curriculum, or are SAH/WAHPs who don't have to worry as much about how a school day fits with a work day. And that's great that their co-op preschool or whatever is so wonderful, but that will never be an option for us due to work constraints. 

[catbus]

Feb 3, 2014 13:36:37 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

Feb 3, 2014 13:27:34 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

I think I don't understand your OP.  When will he enter K if he stays in private?  Wouldn't the age cut-off be the same no matter which option you choose?

Honestly, thinking that there is no curriculum needed in pre-K is just incorrect (sorry!).  Especially if your public schools have initiated the Common Core curriculum, they are expected to do SO MUCH by the end of their year at K, if they don't come in knowing quite a bit from pre-K they will be pretty far behind.  DS1 started K this year and at meet-the-teacher night, his teacher said that literally, "K is the new 1st grade".  DS1 has a June birthday and already can read simple books (Dr. Seuss, etc) and do basic math because he is pushed so hard in class.

ETA - I would avoid keeping him in pre-K an extra year and then switching him to public right into 1st grade.  For us, DS1's biggest adjustment issues were based on differences between daycare/pre-K and an elementary school like the schedule, bathroom breaks, etc.  If your kid is the same, he would have an even rougher transition because he'd be joining a group already accustomed to attending that physical school.

Daycare Center: no cut off, will put kids into the 'next' class at their birthdays, in Thor's case that's September 29th. At the rate he's going, at his current daycare:

September 2014: Twos

September 2015: Preschool

September 2016: Pre-K

September 2017, ready for Kindergarten at either SPS (if they allow early admission/testing), or a private school that always does testing for admissions. Daycare center does not have a kindergarten program

Seattle Public Schools: cut off is August 31st, for even their pay preschool, pre-k, kindergarten programs.

September 2016: Preschool (at pay program of choice that you apply for)

September 2017: Pre-K (continue at pay program of choice)

September 2018: Kindergarten (enter into the public school we're districted to, that does not have a preschool program)

Starting in preschool, our daycare cost is 1600/month (food included), the SPS program is 800/month (food not included).

I actually have no idea if SPS does Core Curriculum. I didn't realize CC extended to preschools.

My question is many parts, but the core is: do I fight the battle now to get him into the preschool program I want "early" but about right on time for him given his existing peer group, just wait a year and hold him back in daycare (also accumulating those daycare costs), or wait until kindergarten to fight this battle (or just wait then too).

OK, I was misreading your question but kind of answered it anyway. LOL. Common Core is my other concern with public school, BTW, but I wouldn't think preschool would be held to CC standards (but I seriously have no clue; standardized testing in Kindergarten also seems illogical to me, but clearly it's happening!). 

[catbus]

Feb 3, 2014 13:39:45 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

Feb 3, 2014 13:33:48 GMT -5 catbus said:

I'm also a little confused, but am very interested since obviously we're dealing with the same systems.

So, here are my thoughts: E and Thor are the same age. Right now, they can't enter SPS until fall 2018, right? Because they have to be five years old on September 1 to enter kindergarten. Obviously we're realllly early in the process, but one small reason I'm considering private elementary school is that they're more flexible with starting ages, and (assuming he's ready) I think they'd let E start fall 2017, when he's almost five years old. Obviously if he's not ready we will start him in 2018, but he will be on the older side of his class (because AFAIK, redshirting isn't so much a thing here, but I could be wrong).

ANYWAY, I also am open to considering other preschool options that aren't associated with our daycare, but my concern is finding an option that still caters to working parents. So many of the programs I hear great things about are smack in the middle of the morning, and it's expected that parents can pick up or have some other magical option for care. It stresses me out. 

Edit: All that to say that the daycare option is so easy that for now, I'm assuming we'll stick with it. I do plan to do further research fairly soon. Unfortunately, the people I know with preschool experience around here either just went with the easiest option without much thought to a philosophy or curriculum, or are SAH/WAHPs who don't have to worry as much about how a school day fits with a work day. And that's great that their co-op preschool or whatever is so wonderful, but that will never be an option for us due to work constraints. 

It is easy, but I really loathe the BH preschool curriculum, esp. as I see it manifest in practice with a child close to our family. I might change my mind after I visit the preschool curriculum meeting this Thursday at my center. Maybe my kid won't be the same (most likely he will not), but it doesn't seem what I'd want, esp. since I've researched other programs in the area that seem so much more in line with what I'd like for my kid. And I feel I have to think about it now cause to apply for a preschool program... I think I have to start sometime in the next half year which is just mind boggling.

Yep, I'm figuring I need to buckle down and do serious research by July/August of this year. 

[dragonfly08]

Add me to the list of the slightly confused.

But...as for repeating age groups...IMO at that age they don't really notice and it has little if any impact. My younger DD was born just slightly before our cutoff, and we sent her to K when she was age appropriate. She did fine, met state standards, but around here that's really not enough and her teacher did have concerns. We put her in 1st the next year anyway. By the third week in it was clear she needed some help so we put her back in K for a second year. Basically she did one year as one of the youngest, and one year as the oldest in the class. She didn't notice a bit. Based on my own experience, I'd vote for being more academically prepared (and I agree with vanillacourage that preschool does/should have a curriculum, especially these days!) over being at a certain end of the age spectrum any day.

Good luck!

[SJ]

I think I would move him to the SPS pre-school program that you like as soon as possible. Especially since it is 50% of the cost and also the "better" program in your view.

[h]

DS1 has a late August birthday. He was the youngest in his class in daycare through 4 years old. When he was 4 we switched him to a mixed age Montessori school where he was more in the middle of the pack. The transition was fine.

He is now in kindergarten at a private school and turned 6 the week that school started. He is on the older side, but there are quite a few older kids (the school does placement evaluations for anyone who turns five after March 1 of the year they start kinder and the cutoff is July 1, so there are a lot of kindergartners who turned 6 in the spring or summer before school started). I was worried that after years of socializing with older kids, he would not do well being one of the older ones, but he has really thrived this year. That said, had we decided to go with public school, I would have put him in first grade this year since he would have just made the September 1 cutoff.

[anna7602]

Feb 3, 2014 13:47:39 GMT -5 SJ said:

I think I would move him to the SPS pre-school program that you like as soon as possible. Especially since it is 50% of the cost and also the "better" program in your view.

I agree with this, given your explanations.

And I can't speak for the rest of the country, but around here CC impacts pre-K curriculum, but not preschool. But that's because pre-K is state-funded, not private. I don't know how common public pre-K is across the rest of the country.

And FWIW, DD attended pre-K outside the US and is doing fine in a public kindergarten here. It really depends on the kid, as well as on the school. Some schools around here are notorious for moving too quickly through the CC material for most parents' comfort level, but DD's school isn't one of those.

[vanillacourage]

If you don't like your current daycare's pre-K *and* the SPS pre-k is cheaper, I'd start him at the SPS pre-K as soon as you're able.  I don't know if I would "fight" to get him in there early, I guess I'd wait and see on his readiness for the program when the time comes closer. 

For kindergarten, sometimes districts will let kids who are within a month of the cut-off in if they can prove they are ready, and I'd imagine that being in a pre-K program affiliated with the schools would put you in the best possible position to be able to try for that. 

[savan]

Really, this sort of thing is so kid dependent. I see a couple of responses here in favor of a stricter pre-k curriculum. DS attended his in-home daycare right up until the first day of kindergarten. She subscribed to a home school pre-k program so they received instruction every day but nothing like what he would have received in a separate pre-k. He did just fine in kindergarten and we were told at the first parent/teacher conference that he was more than ready for kindergarten. It's true that there is a lot more expected of kids in school these days but the K teachers are used to kids coming in at different ends of the spectrum and are prepared to get everyone at the same level by the end of the year.

You know your kid best, I'd go with whatever program makes you feel more comfortable. I'd be tempted to go with the cheaper option though :-).

[savan]

Feb 3, 2014 14:32:51 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

Feb 3, 2014 14:10:09 GMT -5 savan said:

Really, this sort of thing is so kid dependent. I see a couple of responses here in favor of a stricter pre-k curriculum. DS attended his in-home daycare right up until the first day of kindergarten. She subscribed to a home school pre-k program so they received instruction every day but nothing like what he would have received in a separate pre-k. He did just fine in kindergarten and we were told at the first parent/teacher conference that he was more than ready for kindergarten. It's true that there is a lot more expected of kids in school these days but the K teachers are used to kids coming in at different ends of the spectrum and are prepared to get everyone at the same level by the end of the year.

You know your kid best, I'd go with whatever program makes you feel more comfortable. I'd be tempted to go with the cheaper option though :-).

Right, I get this.

But that wasn't the question.

Basically, I was wondering how people feel about the theory of red-shirting or not red-shirting or what not, because my kid's age is a month after the public school cut off.

Sorry, I guess I'm a little confused then.  Wouldn't the public school option mean he started later?  That wouldn't be redshirting because he'd be starting according to the district requirements.  Redshirting would be holding him back an additional year after that.  

[Brie]

We have basically the same cut-off here (September 1st) and I've just resigned myself to C being the oldest kid in his class when he starts kindergarten.

I'd rather have him skip a grade ahead later if it's deemed necessary than be held back for an extra year if necessary (so there's no direct repeat of curriculum).

[anna7602]

How common is it that kids on the cusp end up repeating or skipping a year later? I don't know enough young kids who are now on the cusp and can only speak to people in my own age group. Basically, everyone stayed wherever they started, so if they were almost a year older than everyone in their K class, then they were almost a year older than everyone in their senior year of HS class and if they were the youngest, they were always the youngest. And there didn't seem to be any correlation between the "smartest" kids in class and whether their birthdays were in the beginning, middle or end of the year.

[catbus]

Feb 3, 2014 14:47:53 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

How common is it that kids on the cusp end up repeating or skipping a year later? I don't know enough young kids who are now on the cusp and can only speak to people in my own age group. Basically, everyone stayed wherever they started, so if they were almost a year older than everyone in their K class, then they were almost a year older than everyone in their senior year of HS class and if they were the youngest, they were always the youngest. And there didn't seem to be any correlation between the "smartest" kids in class and whether their birthdays were in the beginning, middle or end of the year.

This was my experience, as well, and is why I'm open to E starting "early" and being on the younger end of his class. One of my good friends in elementary school was very young for our grade (cut-off 8/31/84 but her bday was 12/17/84, IIRC), but she was one of the "smart" kids in our gifted and talented class. 

[savan]

Can you start kids early in public school? I didn't think that was an option (though I could be wrong, my kids had spring birthdays so I didn't pay attention to any of that). I'd be inclined to follow the cut off dates set by the district. Some kids are going to be the oldest and some will be the youngest. It is what it is.

[vanillacourage]

FWIW, here's been our anecdotal experience: DS1 has 26 kids in his K class (which his teacher says is at least 5 kids too many, but that's not within her control). 

She's been a K teacher for 15 years and this is her youngest class ever - 10 of the kids were born in June, July or August (cutoff is in August).  She also has another 10 that are between a full year to 18 months ( ) older than the youngest child.  The rest fall somewhere in-between.

DS is a June kiddo.  He's a smart cookie and is among the more advanced in the class in academics, but he gets the wiggles in a way appropriate to his age and sometimes that is classified as a behavioral issue.  I would counter that when a 5.5 year old is held up against a 7 year old, of course there are going to be apparent behavioral differences and that is not my child's fault - he is age-appropriate to the classroom while the older child is not. 

[anna7602]

Feb 3, 2014 15:05:44 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

Feb 3, 2014 15:04:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I think that people trying to change the rules for their special kid is what has caused the problem of there being a 20 month difference between the youngest and oldest of the class. Just put him in the correct year according to SPS' rules.

Part of the problem with that is he'll be in either preschool or pre-kindergarten for 23 months repeating the same things.

I don't know why I feel so invested in this thread, but here I am again. I don't think repeating pre-school would be as much about repeating the same things, but I guess it depends on the school. DD has always gone to mixed ages pre-schools and so the specific lessons/field trips/etc. changed from year-to-year even though the overall goal was the same- to have kids who were curious and engaged with each other and learning important socialization skills for life: sharing, talking when it's your turn, etc. Pre-K seems (to me who didn't go through pre-K here, but who knows lots of kids who did) like it was a little more structured and like there would be more of a chance of having to repeat the same exact lessons if a child went through it twice.

[Deleted]

Am I understanding your issue to ultimately be wanting to send him to public school "early" (though not really because he'd turn five a month into the school year)? The only thin you can do is call and see what they say. I sympathize though. Most of the research I've read suggests that red shirting is more harmful than not and that it helps to send kids earlier. Fwiw, my kid turned five in Sept. the year he started and has been doing very well. His teacher actually says he is one of the more mature kids even though he is one of the youngest and is at the top of the class academically. I see now that holding him back would have been a mistake.

[egishere]

We will run into the same thing. Cut off here is 10/1 and my trio's bday is 9/29. I'm pretty sure we will be holding them back because they already have delays right now and I doubt will be ready for kindy if they started "on time". I'm not worried about their social circle in preschool and other kids moving on if they have to stay. If you are worried about him repeating things then maybe keep him at the daycare PS and then move him to the public one for the next year?

Does the public elem preschool provide all day care? Or are you going to have to have him go to daycare after school anyways?

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2014 15:05:44 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

Feb 3, 2014 15:04:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I think that people trying to change the rules for their special kid is what has caused the problem of there being a 20 month difference between the youngest and oldest of the class. Just put him in the correct year according to SPS' rules.

Part of the problem with that is he'll be in either preschool or pre-kindergarten for 23 months repeating the same things.

I would not find this ideal either. Since parents are allowed to hold kids back if they want, maybe you can send him early? I would call and find out.

[savan]

Feb 3, 2014 15:16:12 GMT -5 @lauralynne said:

Feb 3, 2014 15:04:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I think that people trying to change the rules for their special kid is what has caused the problem of there being a 20 month difference between the youngest and oldest of the class. Just put him in the correct year according to SPS' rules.

I'm curious why having a chronological age span is a "problem"?   If the youngest child is academically capable, even if they're 20 months younger than the oldest child, why wouldn't they deserve to be in that classroom?  

I would put him in where he's academically challenged - especially if it's a program you're more comfortable with.  SPS will test to enter K "early".  

In addition to academics, one of the things addressed in our kindergarten program was emotional maturity.  They were teaching the kids how to address adults, how to sit and listen, how to keep their hands to themselves, how to behave in the school environment, etc., etc.  Because come 1st grade they are going to be expected to sit at a desk and work for the majority of the day.

Having a kid who is academically ready is one thing, but that kid will stick out if he/she is not as emotionally mature as their peers.  

[vanillacourage]

Feb 3, 2014 15:16:12 GMT -5 @lauralynne said:

Feb 3, 2014 15:04:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I think that people trying to change the rules for their special kid is what has caused the problem of there being a 20 month difference between the youngest and oldest of the class. Just put him in the correct year according to SPS' rules.

I'm curious why having a chronological age span is a "problem"?   If the youngest child is academically capable, even if they're 20 months younger than the oldest child, why wouldn't they deserve to be in that classroom?  ;

In our experience it's not the "young" kids who are the problem, it's the older one. When the teacher tells me my DS has problems paying attention and (in front of me) tells him to watch Bobby for cues on how to behave, and then I find out that Bobby is 7, it pisses me off. My DS is age- and behavior-appropriate to the class, but he's being held to unfair standards.

[catbus]

Feb 3, 2014 18:27:59 GMT -5 vanillacourage said:

Feb 3, 2014 15:16:12 GMT -5 @lauralynne said:

I'm curious why having a chronological age span is a "problem"?   If the youngest child is academically capable, even if they're 20 months younger than the oldest child, why wouldn't they deserve to be in that classroom?  ;

In our experience it's not the "young" kids who are the problem, it's the older one. When the teacher tells me my DS has problems paying attention and (in front of me) tells him to watch Bobby for cues on how to behave, and then I find out that Bobby is 7, it pisses me off. My DS is age- and behavior-appropriate to the class, but he's being held to unfair standards.

Exactly. We're talking about putting kids into the school system on the young side, not red-shirting, but @littlemoxie is reacting as though we're talking about the latter.