I need some advice dog and kid related

[sake]

katietornado

Doby nipped at G this morning, and caught him right on the eye brow. It didn't break the skin, so I KNOW it was more of a warning than an actual bite. This has happened once before, maybe in late Sept/early Oct, and Doby was on the couch, and G was pulling up to the couch, and it startled Doby, and it was basically the same thing. He nipped at him, and it left more of a scratch than a bite, again not breaking the skin. We have been SO vigilant about not letting Doby on the couches now if G is around, b/c we felt like Doby sometimes gets protective of the couches, and didn't want it to occur again. We have also been keeping them separated with baby gates if we can't be directly supervising their interactions. 
Today, I was letting the dogs out, and Doby was waiting his turn, so he was in with us in the living room/kitchen. Cosmo was coming in so I was wiping her paws, and G was running around the living room. Doby was near me, and G ran past a couple of times, with out incident. Then he stopped running and walked over to where we were, and doby turned and nipped at him.  G fell down and started crying, I calmly separated the dogs from us, put Doby out to go potty, and put cosmo on the other side of the gate. 
When Doby came back in, I put him on the other side of the gate as well. I didn't discipline him other than saying "no!" when it first happened, b/c I didn't really know what to do.

I am like the last person on earth who would ever rehome a dog, so I'm looking for other options here. I tried calling the rescue where we got him to see if 1.) they could recommend a behavioralist in our area and 2.) if we couldn't get this sorted out, if they could take him back and place him in a home with out small kids, but the damn rescue has disaffiliated, and no longer exists. That was the place where I started getting emotional, b/c I won't just take him to a shelter if we have to rehome him, and I don't really want to do that anyway. And we don't know anyone who doesn't have kids or won't want to be having them in the near future. 

The other problem is, that he's so high strung and even if I could get in contact with someone from his old rescue, I feel like they're well versed about Doberman issues, but he isn't even a doberman... and Kelpies are just so much different from other breeds. I don't know what to do. 

I love him, and want him to be in our house with us, but I can't take the chance of something bad happening to G.

Tell me what to do. 

[CurlyQ284]

My westie has snapped at DS a few times. He hasn't touched him so far, just snapping at him. I have gates everywhere. The dogs stay in the kitchen when DS is awake. When he is napping and after he goes to sleep, they get free reign of the downstairs. I'm hoping that when DS is a little older and able to understand better we can work on treating pets nicely. DS is pretty rough and our other dog is a rough dog too so she isn't bothered by him but I keep her separate too just in case. My vet recommended having him feed the dog to establish that he's higher in the pack.

I don't have much advice other than that but I wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. It sucks!

[Jalapeñomel]

Sorry this is happening.

First thing I would do is no dogs on the couch ever even if G isn't around.

Second thing, is to get the dogs to sleep in their crates and make sure G is not allowed near their crate, food, toys ever.

If need be the dogs stay in one room and G in the other.

[hopecounts]

Agree are you doing nothing in life is free with him?
And yes no getting on the couch at all he is below G and only the senior pack members get to be on the couch (you, your h, and G), also make sure G goes through doors first and other quiet indicators that g is above him.
Have his crate in a quiet and accessible place and 'hide' treats in It to encourage him to relax in there during the day, keep G well away from the crate that is the dog's territory and G should leave him alone there.
Definitely meet with a behaviorist.
another question how old is G? Is he starting to walk/talk/crawl? I noticed my dog seemed to be weirded out anytime DD started becoming more 'human' not to the extent of snapping because he is very beta so he just avoided her but it was clear that when she took a step to being more of a person he didn't know what to think.

[Deleted]

I agree with having a "kid free" space for the dogs. They need to have a place they can go where they are safe, can go to be alone and that is "theirs".

We had this problem with one of our lab mixes, he was jealous of DD1 when she came along. So we instituted kid free crates where the dogs could go, but kids are not allowed.

[dizzydee]

I'd contact your local humane society and ask for recommendations on trainers.

Also aren't you running a daycare out of your home?

[sake]

Mar 7, 2014 9:58:27 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

Agree are you doing nothing in life is free with him?
And yes no getting on the couch at all he is below G and only the senior pack members get to be on the couch (you, your h, and G), also make sure G goes through doors first and other quiet indicators that g is above him.
Have his crate in a quiet and accessible place and 'hide' treats in It to encourage him to relax in there during the day, keep G well away from the crate that is the dog's territory and G should leave him alone there.
Definitely meet with a behaviorist.
another question how old is G? Is he starting to walk/talk/crawl? I noticed my dog seemed to be weirded out anytime DD started becoming more 'human' not to the extent of snapping because he is very beta so he just avoided her but it was clear that when she took a step to being more of a person he didn't know what to think.

we do nothing in life is free with both dogs. Cosmo has responded appropriately, Doby is another story. We no longer let Doby on the couches, Cosmo is allowed if we invite her up, which has always been the case. Doby will sometimes sneak in and get on the couch (like if G is asleep, and the baby gates are open) but we always reprimand him and tell him to get off, and he does. 
He has always hated his crate, since day 1, and we did the exact same crate training process that we did with Cosmo, who loves her crate. He won't eat anything while he's in there, so treats don't phase him at all. He is also not food motivated, but is very toy motivated. He also will not go in his crate in order to get toys. He basically ignores everything that is in there if he is "forced" to go in. He will go in if asked, but is not happy in there. He will also destroy any soft things in the crate so beds/blankets/towels/comfort item is not an option in his crate. If he is in there and can hear other people in the house, he cries/scratches the bars until he is let out. 
G is not allowed near their food or toys. All toys are either upstairs or put away while G is awake. The food is in the laundry room where G is not allowed to go at all. 
G is 13 months. This definitely started when he was pulling up/walking along furniture. Doby is a herding breed, so I know that is part of the issue. A high strung herding breed with a crazy toddler does not make for a happy equilibrium. 
We are going to commit to more exercise for him daily, which I think will probably help. 
He is not an easy dog to live with, which is one reason why we are so hesitant to just re-home him ( other than the fact that we do love him dearly). He has quite a few quirks that are pretty annoying, but since he's our family we have learned to deal with them... We are mostly afraid that with these quirks and the fact that he maybe shouldn't be around young children, he would not find a home where both he and the new owners would be happy and where he would live forever. And I know that he loves and attaches to people, so moving him from family to family would be a huge detriment to him. 

[sake]

Mar 7, 2014 10:16:08 GMT -5 dizzydee said:

I'd contact your local humane society and ask for recommendations on trainers.

Also aren't you running a daycare out of your home?

Yes I am, which is why the dogs are gated upstairs all day. This happened early this morning, before any of the children were here, and I was letting them out to go to the bathroom before any one arrived. We have a 2 story home, with the children staying on the first floor and the dogs having free reign of the second story during the day. 
Even before the incidents with Doby I did not want the dogs and children to intermingle and was keeping them gated upstairs while the kids were here. 

[Jalapeñomel]

mekiakoo you did the right thing. Don't beat yourself up.

[Jalapeñomel]

Maybe hire someone who can run him during the day, help get out some of the energy.

[Deleted]

I'd NILIF him with G. Make G go out of the door first while Doby waits. Let G up on the couch and make Doby stay down, etc.

He thinks he's higher in the pack order than the baby. Time to let him know the truth.

[sake]

Mar 7, 2014 10:25:41 GMT -5 @stellasmom said:

I'd NILIF him with G. Make G go out of the door first while Doby waits. Let G up on the couch and make Doby stay down, etc.

He thinks he's higher in the pack order than the baby. Time to let him know the truth.

Yes, this is what we are thinking we will have to do. It has been harder keeping up with the NILIF since G was born, because usually H is in charge of getting the dogs out and I follow with G in a stroller when we are leaving for walks and things, but we need to really step it up, and be strict about it. 

[nomad100]

Definitely look at behaviorists.

And TBH, the fact that he didn't break the skin, to me, is a good sign. I am reading that he isn't overtly aggressive to others? To you or your DH or your other dog? That makes me think this is fixable. I am sure the additional exercise will help too.

And just about everyone I know who has had a baby ran into some issues once the baby became mobile. Their actions are so unpredicable that many dogs just don't feel comfortable around them.

[CurlyQ284]

Mar 7, 2014 10:34:43 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

Definitely look at behaviorists.

And TBH, the fact that he didn't break the skin, to me, is a good sign. I am reading that he isn't overtly aggressive to others? To you or your DH or your other dog? That makes me think this is fixable. I am sure the additional exercise will help too.

And just about everyone I know who has had a baby ran into some issues once the baby became mobile. Their actions are so unpredicable that many dogs just don't feel comfortable around them.

I didn't realize this was fairly common. My dog was fine with SDs since they met him when they were 3 & 4, I never thought I'd have a problem. He loved Henry when he was an infant but when he started crawling/walking he freaked out.

[pittsmcgee]

I'm so sorry mekiakoo and sake, It must have been so scary for both of you and I know you must feel so bummed out about missing your pups
I definitely second the behaviorist recommendations. I have seen them do great things for friends when they brought babies home after having their dogs for a while.
Good luck.

[sake]

Mar 7, 2014 10:34:43 GMT -5 nomad100 said:

Definitely look at behaviorists.

And TBH, the fact that he didn't break the skin, to me, is a good sign. I am reading that he isn't overtly aggressive to others? To you or your DH or your other dog? That makes me think this is fixable. I am sure the additional exercise will help too.

And just about everyone I know who has had a baby ran into some issues once the baby became mobile. Their actions are so unpredicable that many dogs just don't feel comfortable around them.

He is seriously the sweetest, clingiest dog. A total goof ball. Just very needy, and apparently some times sassy/assy.

He has never tried to be aggressive EVER to my husband or I. He and cosmo have gotten in fights 3 times total, all 3 of which involved Cosmo's fat butt trying to stick her face in his food bowl while he was eating, and then SHE aggressed all 3 times to biting Doby when he didn't stop eating his own food. He loudly snapped and barked back, and things ended. These were all when he was less than 2 years old. He is now almost 5. He also got in one altercation with is dog buddy over a tennis ball once, which was the most aggressive of the fight, but they were 2 male large dogs, and he has not had any kind of ball toy with any dog around after that (other than cosmo), because we didn't want that to happen again. That was also 3  years ago.
He tosses his ball toys over the baby gate and grant throws it back. He has never showed any aggression towards any person or Grant over toys, and especially not his ball. Basically, he loves his ball more than anything, and the person who has the ball has all the power. He listens to whoever has the ball above any one else.

I think that the combination of not enough exercise and not enough attention (because of being gated away 95% of the time now anyway) have made him become a little jealous (probably) and also combined with his high strung nature and herding breed into this pot that is now boiling over. Plus G is unpredictable in his actions and I'm sure that makes Doby anxious/ unsure as well.

We are going to hire a dog walker 3 days a week for the morning, and step up the outside exercise and walking in the evenings with him and Cosmo and G. Hopefully with that and some meetings with a behavioralist (who I left a message inquiring about at the humane society) will help get this resolved.

[bluelily]

It's really common for dogs to start showing nervous aggression around kids when they start to become mobile, like ~9-10 months. It's the "drunken sailor" period - the kid is acting very unpredictably, and it freaks the dog out. (They are often fine while the kid is still immobile.)

You'll want to find a trainer or behaviorist with lots of aggression experience, and until you get that, you want to guarantee that dog and kid are separated for a while. (Our trainer says that you want to prevent the dog from showing an aggressive response for at least 21 days, to try to break the habit. So no kid exposure at all for that long.)

We're 2.5 years in and still have to keep our dog separated from the kids most of the time (our dog is certifiable), so be aware that it may be a long, slow process. If there is a viable option for rehoming, that's something to consider.

[sake]

Mar 7, 2014 10:40:44 GMT -5 Que? said:

Mar 7, 2014 10:30:13 GMT -5 sake said:

Yes, this is what we are thinking we will have to do. It has been harder keeping up with the NILIF since G was born, because usually H is in charge of getting the dogs out and I follow with G in a stroller when we are leaving for walks and things, but we need to really step it up, and be strict about it. 

It also sounds like you're not applying the same rules to both dogs. If the couch is off limits to Doby, it has to be off limits to the other one and etc.

This is true, we have been doing this, especially since Cosmo is totally fine with G, and also because she is pretty old, and has pain in her joints, and I feel bad just making her lay on the floor. (she doesn't like dog beds). I guess I assumed because she was higher than him on the family totem pole (older dog, had her for 4 longer years) that we could allow her some of these privileges and not him, but if thats  not the case, then we will figure out some place else she can go to rest. 

[Deleted]

You can use google to find a dog behaviorist in your area.

[hopecounts]

Based on G's age and the fact he is otherwise never shown real aggression towards humans I really suspect this is just a temporary freak out because g is becoming mobile and it's freaking him out.
I don't think this is something that will be a long term problem and think it will be fixable with stepping up NILIF with G and the puppy and general working with him.
((Hugs))

[sake]

Mar 7, 2014 12:45:52 GMT -5 tulips said:

Have you talked to Doby's vet? They might be able to recommend a behaviorist.

no, we have not spoken with the vet about this. He had just gone in for his annual check up about a month before the first time it happened, and since then, we had not had any issues, and honestly, we were just hoping it was a one time thing. Like doby just chilling on the couch, G popped up and dory was like "oh shit, he can get up here now, I'm freaking out- and snapping" because there had been no other issues that did not involve the couch before or since. And since we haven't been letting him on the couches, we thought the problem had been solved. We were also still separating them MOST of the time, except when the dogs needed to go out (they have to go through the main family area to get to the back yard) and occasionally we would let them come in to the family area if we were directly supervising interaction. But that has now (since this morning's incident) been eliminated as well, and G is getting put in his high chair so that he can not run around or reach the dogs while they are being let out. 
I have also already set up a dog walker to come walk doby mid day, so that he can have extra exercise. That will begin next week. Since I work out of my home, I can't just take him on walks every day in the middle of the day, and even when it's nice enough for me to take the kids out, I don't want doby to interact with them because of his history, so i think that having a dog walker in the mornings and then H or I walking him in the evenings will do worlds of good.
I am still waiting for the humane society to get back with me, but I figured they would by monday. I will also be contacting my vet to get a full work up done if these other things don't help, because this behavior is not typical of him. 

[awick14]

sake- I hope that with the extra exercise that this will help him. (As well as keeping him separated)

This is my greatest fear with our dog when we have children. We only have a one floor house (basement is a rental suite) so there isn't as many options to keep them as separate as I would like but we will figure it out. (Kitchen is able to be blocked off) but our pup is very much a velcro dog. He is almost 2 and he is getting better but still. (We invite family over all the time so he is around kids 1-2x a week at least to try an get him comfortable with the idea of kids being around.)

GL with figuring out a solution.