I think I might be a bitch even though I like to believe not

[Michelle]

First things first - I love my sister.

I think she has done amazingly well for herself with what God has given her.

That said, here comes the bitchy part:


My sister has an IQ of 61.  She has signed up to take the Compass test (ACT, I think... she said Compass test) at a local community college so she can pursue a degree in nursing.  She announced this on FB.  I wished her good luck, sincerely.  But my next thought is she could get just high enough to get into a program but I don't think she can finish a nursing program.  So encouraging her to pursue that career field seems like encouraging her to spend a lot of money on a degree plan when she has very little chance of graduating.


My sister-in-law however comments, "Super proud of you!  You can do it!!"


I want to slap my sister-in-law.  I feel like she is being a cheerleader and setting my sister up for failure.


I think there are a lot of great things my sister can be successful at doing.  Getting a nursing degree is not one of them.  Certified Nursing Assistant - absolutely.  Medical coder - very possible.  She has good memorization skills.  Nursing?  Not really - she doesn't have great logic and math skills required to complete medication calculations.


Being reserved and wishing her luck, vs. being all "you can do it!!" - that makes me a bitch huh?  Send me to the corner if I need to go there.

(insert emoticon of a perplexed face rested on its fist).

[gpw]

Meh...I think you can be encouraging without falling all over yourself like your SIL. I mean, I don't know that it's a waste of money. If you think she can do those other things, maybe once she gets into some classes, she will realize her limits and set a more realistic goal.

You know, kind of a "shoot for the moon" thing?

[CallingAllAngels]

The compass test is the placement test for many community colleges. Hopefully, when they see her scores and she sees how many prerequisites she has to take, they come up with an alternate plan.

[cookiemdough]

I would cut her some slack since she is an in-law.

[forreals]

Team you. It's a tough situation all around.

[debatethis]

I don't think it makes you a bitch at all. FWIW we're perpetually dealing with similar issues with my SIL. She's 24 but developmentally delayed, functions at about a 16ish year old level, if that. She does very well as a cashier but she keeps attempting to get into various programs at a local CC (cosmetology, CNA, etc) and failing the prereqs. MIL and FIL are at a loss because they don't want to discourage her but it's clearly beyond her capabilities.

There's a fine line. You don't want to encourage her in things that are so clearly beyond her reach, but you don't want to shoot down her ambitions, either. It's a tough spot to be in.

All that said, I don't think your SIL's words will have any lasting impact on your sister. It's not like she is going to take them literally, right? She won't say "well SIL said I could be a nurse so I'm staying with this program!" or something equally pie in the sky? I'd just leave them alone and inwardly wince.

[Michelle]

Apr 16, 2014 20:30:34 GMT -5 Catlawdy said:

My niece took a test that replaced the compass, it was to assess reading and math skills in general, not for a specific program. It was to figure out if she could take college courses or needed to take pre-curriculum stuff. Is that the type of test? I'm also wondering if she says nursing but really means cna.

she got her cna already. It was rough but she did it.

[bluestreet]

That sucks. But hopefully she won't make it into any programs, and that will help her take on a less ambitious goal.

As for your SIL, she's presumably your sister's SIL too, and sometimes SILs just need to vibe for the good of everyone.

This post makes me realize I don't have a good sense of IQ ranges and what those ranges mean. Off to fall down a wikihole...

[forreals]

Apr 16, 2014 20:47:12 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Apr 16, 2014 20:30:34 GMT -5 Catlawdy said:

My niece took a test that replaced the compass, it was to assess reading and math skills in general, not for a specific program. It was to figure out if she could take college courses or needed to take pre-curriculum stuff. Is that the type of test? I'm also wondering if she says nursing but really means cna.

she got her cna already. It was rough but she did it.

Your sister must have a hell of a work ethic to pull that off. Has she worked as a CNA?

[Kattey]

Apr 16, 2014 19:04:47 GMT -5 CallingAllAngels said:

The compass test is the placement tests for many community colleges. Hopefully, when they see her scores and she sees how many prerequisites she has to take, they come up with an alternate plan.

This. I had to take it when I started at my tech school. At least where I live, you have to be accepted into the nursing program, so she should have an adviser who will review her scores and help her find a more realistic plan.

[auntie]

I don't think you're a bitch. You sound more like a realist looking out to keep her sister emotionally safe.

The way you describe her, she sounds like a young woman with autism. The social emotional maturity of a 16 year old at 24, the strong rote memory/poor reasoning skills, the tendency to be stuck on this idea and the fantasy thinking that doesn't include an accurate idea of what her personal strengths are. A surprising number fly below the radar.

That said, it's really weird you are talking actual IQ- this isn't typically a topic of conversation among sibs. The thing is, that number may not be especially accurate or useful. Especially if this was something your parents were told when she was young. Based on her obtaining a CNA or working as a cashier; I'm guessing the 61 is nowhere near a valid result.

People on spectrum tend to have a pattern to their WISC results that place their PIQ (performance) significantly higher than their VIQ (verbal) and then average the 2 numbers to give a FSIQ/IQ. (full scale). An IQ of 61 is could be seen to be an IQ in the range of about 46 to 76- because it is only accurate within one standard deviation. If she's at the higher range of that number, she may be more capable that your family has been led to believe. If her PIQ/VIQ are 2 standard deviations apart, the validity of the result is open to debate.

If you look at the page I linked, you'll see how unlikely it is for someone with so low an IQ to function independently in the workplace- I would expect someone with a true IQ of 61 to be in a sheltered workshop assembling flyers a couple hours a day.

www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx

[hopecounts]

Everything auntie said, DD has ASD and we were told by the Developmental Pediatrician and the Dev. Psych who evaluated her to be cautious with IQ scores because with ASD at younger ages in particular as it can blur the accuracy due to it's nature.
Both higher due to rote memorization which can come across as smarter or due to language deficits lower then it is.
Plus your SIL means well, I don't think she is trying to encourage your sister to follow foolish dreams but just trying to be supportive.

[Michelle]

Apr 16, 2014 20:59:55 GMT -5 forreals said:

Apr 16, 2014 20:47:12 GMT -5 Michelle said:

she got her cna already. It was rough but she did it.

Your sister must have a hell of a work ethic to pull that off. Has she worked as a CNA?

My dad and step mom helped her study. she does not have the best work ethic actually. :/

She worked for a few months as a cna in a nursing home but was fired. 

She does great in cashier jobs and is working in a university cafeteria right now.

[hopecounts]

Apr 17, 2014 9:00:28 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Apr 16, 2014 20:59:55 GMT -5 forreals said:

Your sister must have a hell of a work ethic to pull that off. Has she worked as a CNA?

My dad and step mom helped her study. she does not have the best work ethic actually. :/

She worked for a few months as a cna in a nursing home but was fired. 

She does great in cashier jobs and is working in a university cafeteria right now.

This fits with Aunties suggestion. She can handle rote type work where it is black and white what she needs to do (ring up purchases, take the payment, make change if necessary), but a job that requires more self direction (gray thinking like CNA work) is difficult for her. 

[sushi]

I'll be extra bitchy. I don't want a nurse that low functioning. I found nursing school to be easy, but many of my classmates didn't, and they were relatively intelligent. There were some graduates I straight up wouldn't trust with my life.

A cna might be a better position for her to pursue. It's still patient care but is more heard toward rote thinking (not to denigrate the position. I've worked with awesome cnas)

[sushi]

Also, cna positions can vary. Honestly I think nursing home jobs are the hardest for that role. Nurses don't have to do much there. Ironically she might do better in an ICU placement. Quite often we had only one cna per floor, sometimes none. Because the pts are so acute cnas are responsible for less.

[redwino]

You can't base all decisions around IQ. Depending on when your sister's last IQ was obtained, it could be inaccurate. Also, there are are several different IQ tests, and depending on her individual strengths and weaknesses, she may be able to perform some tasks that others with a similar IQ cannot. Still, it's rarely beneficial to focus only on IQ when considering a persons capabilities. I'm not surprise that an individual with an IQ in the 60's can work as a cashier. I would expect that she has some basic math skills and could do just about anything that is routine when given direction.

With that said, nursing programs are difficult and I would be surprised if she gets accepted since she struggled through her CNA coursework. If I were you, and I don't think your a bitch at all, I would try to focus on her strengths and encourage her to pursue job opportunities that align with her skill set. Maybe really encourage working as a CNA for a few years before going back to school.

[Michelle]

No, you cannot base all decisions on IQ. And no it is not based on her IQ at a young age. She has been tested multiple times over the course of her life to try to diagnose where her developmental challenges are. She has been tested for Autism repeatedly as well because she does have some symptoms that seem textbook. But after testing the results always come back that she is not Autistic and her developmental delays are due to her poor infant/toddler care (she was adopted after coming to our home through the foster care system).

I only threw out IQ as a brief indicator. I do think she is a high performing "61" that could be more like mid to high 70s. She can memorize and take tests and answer questions, but she does not have good critical thinking skills. She also lacks some of the intuition required to care for others (i.e. she will make herself a sandwich when her child needs to eat and not think to make one for her - not because she is selfish, but because she just didn't think about it).

The SIL stuff may be what I'm most bitchy about. But there is so much history. She is always encouraging my sister saying, "you can do anything you put your mind to!" "We believe in you!" "You're going to do awesome!!" And then when my sister doesn't succeed she gets incredibly depressed every time. I want to tell my SIL to shutthehell up and become realistic. At 32 my sister has lots of opportunities ahead of her, but pursuing a nursing degree is not one of them, so don't cheer lead her into thinking she can do it only to fail and be depressed yet again. It's a sad cycle. I just feel like it is so disingenuous. And stupid. I think she wants to be seen as the super sweet supportive sister in law instead of actually BEING supportive in a constructive way that would help my sister.

I want my SIL to either say (or give me room to say), "Hey taking the compass is an excellent first step toward a new career. Nursing is one path, AND the test might steer you to a dozen other paths you never thought of that could be awesome! Good luck on the compass and keep us posted - it is such an exciting step!"

But by jumping in saying what she does, (You're going to do great in nursing school - we believe in you!) I can't post a comment like that without coming across as saying, "Well you're gonna fail at the nursing school attempt but at least they'll tell you some backup options." I DO think that, obviously, but one can be supportive without being so blunt. SIL won't give me any room to do that.

[Michelle]

Apr 17, 2014 6:55:51 GMT -5 auntie said:

That said, it's really weird you are talking actual IQ- this isn't typically a topic of conversation among sibs. 

The only reason I know is because my parents, brother and I had to sit down and they had to be frank with us about "what happens when we die."  thank God they had that talk because my dad DID die last year.  My brother and I were wondering - do we need to plan to have an extra room because she will need to come live with us, or do we need to plan to have financial cushion because she can live independently but will need financial assistance.  I was pushing to see if she needed more autism testing or perhaps even Asberger's.  They finally just laid out what they had been told by the doctors.

The answer is she will probably need to live with us or in a group home setting her whole life.  Or if she finds a husband who can take care of her that could be an option but if something happens for him we go back to her living with one of us or a group home.  She can do jobs, but she doesn't "get it" when it comes to caring for a apartment, paying bills on time, etc.  She has a huge heart and loves to care for others (hence her desire to do CNA/nursing).  But she needs constant supervision unless she is doing a task that is basic and reactive (like cashier).

We had to tell our parents which of us should be designated in the will as a recommended guardian, and they wanted to set up whatever financial situation they could leave behind so it would pretty much all go to caring for her (and now her daughter) and one of us would be the administrator of the funds.  They felt they had to have full disclosure because there will be care issues someday that we will need to cover and we needed to know what we were signing up for.

[redwino]

I still don't think you're being a bitch. You're trying to be supportive and realistic at the same time, which is what any loving sister should do.

I wonder if your sister in law just doesn't completely understand your sister's disability. Has she known your sister long enough to see the cycle of trying hard, failing, and getting depressed? Maybe she doesn't know she's doing more harm than good.

[cookiemdough]

I know you are frustrated but I think your anger at your SIL is a little misplaced. You have had 30 years to know how to handle your sisters limitations and it still isn't easy. Has someone had a sitdown with her to explain the best way to deal with it? Because navigating in-law relationships is already a little different, I can't imagine people being upset at giving inappropriate positive encouragement. Just talk to her, she may not know the implications a Facebook comment that she probably gave 10 seconds of thought to could make such a difference.

[Michelle]

Apr 17, 2014 20:46:11 GMT -5 redwino said:

I still don't think you're being a bitch. You're trying to be supportive and realistic at the same time, which is what any loving sister should do.

I wonder if your sister in law just doesn't completely understand your sister's disability. Has she known your sister long enough to see the cycle of trying hard, failing, and getting depressed? Maybe she doesn't know she's doing more harm than good.

My brother has been married to her for 13 years.  They were together 3 years before that.  My sister lived with them for a summer in the late 90s.  She herself has remarked that my sister has no maternal instinct, poor logic and reasoning skills, cannot live independently, etc.

She is fully aware because my brother had to make her aware because we all decided he would be the executor of the "estate" and the primary decision maker for my sister.  He would take the emotional and day-to-day responsibility for caring for her and I would provide a greater portion of financial support.

[redwino]

Apr 17, 2014 20:34:25 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Apr 17, 2014 6:55:51 GMT -5 auntie said:

That said, it's really weird you are talking actual IQ- this isn't typically a topic of conversation among sibs. 

The only reason I know is because my parents, brother and I had to sit down and they had to be frank with us about "what happens when we die."  thank God they had that talk because my dad DID die last year.  My brother and I were wondering - do we need to plan to have an extra room because she will need to come live with us, or do we need to plan to have financial cushion because she can live independently but will need financial assistance.  I was pushing to see if she needed more autism testing or perhaps even Asberger's.  They finally just laid out what they had been told by the doctors.

The answer is she will probably need to live with us or in a group home setting her whole life.  Or if she finds a husband who can take care of her that could be an option but if something happens for him we go back to her living with one of us or a group home.  She can do jobs, but she doesn't "get it" when it comes to caring for a apartment, paying bills on time, etc.  She has a huge heart and loves to care for others (hence her desire to do CNA/nursing).  But she needs constant supervision unless she is doing a task that is basic and reactive (like cashier).

We had to tell our parents which of us should be designated in the will as a recommended guardian, and they wanted to set up whatever financial situation they could leave behind so it would pretty much all go to caring for her (and now her daughter) and one of us would be the administrator of the funds.  They felt they had to have full disclosure because there will be care issues someday that we will need to cover and we needed to know what we were signing up for.

I actually don't think it's that weird for adult siblings to have this information for the reasons you stated. I can see it not be if the topic of dinner conversation but I would assume it came up at some point once the kids were grown.

[Michelle]

Apr 17, 2014 20:51:05 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

I know you are frustrated but I think your anger at your SIL is a little misplaced. You have had 30 years to know how to handle your sisters limitations and it still isn't easy. Has someone had a sitdown with her to explain the best way to deal with it? Because navigating in-law relationships is already a little different, I can't imagine people being upset at giving inappropriate positive encouragement. Just talk to her, she may not know the implications a Facebook comment that she probably gave 10 seconds of thought to could make such a difference.

She has had 16 years.  Seriously.

She is also the same person that doesn't see anything wrong with responding to a kid who tells his parents that he is gay by saying "I don't agree with your choice or support your decision.  I love you but you should know through this choice you are going to hell when you die."

She wasn't like that when my brother married her.  I pray for him every day.  But with regard to my sister, I want to throat punch her.

[auntie]

Apr 17, 2014 20:34:25 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Apr 17, 2014 6:55:51 GMT -5 auntie said:

That said, it's really weird you are talking actual IQ- this isn't typically a topic of conversation among sibs. 

The only reason I know is because my parents, brother and I had to sit down and they had to be frank with us about "what happens when we die."  thank God they had that talk because my dad DID die last year.  My brother and I were wondering - do we need to plan to have an extra room because she will need to come live with us, or do we need to plan to have financial cushion because she can live independently but will need financial assistance.  

That makes sense. This is a really tough situation you're up against. I'm sorry.

 Most people who are in this sort of situation make the transition to a semi-independent living situation while at least one parent is around to help with the transition. Making the transition after a parent dies doesn't go well.


Given an IQ of 61, she should be getting SSI. This will make her eligible for an income and medical care and could help you access government programs like senior/disability housing. 

You and your brother should not be financially responsible for support. Your mother needs to look into setting up her estate to include a special needs trust so that any eventual inheritance doesn't disqualify her for any government program to which she is entitled.

I was pushing to see if she needed more autism testing or perhaps even Asberger's.  They finally just laid out what they had been told by the doctors.


There is only ASD as an option these days. Aspergers is reserved for people with average or better IQs, no language delays or delays in adaptive skills. If your sister had special education services in school, it would be useful to collect these documents to help establish SSI and other services. 

The answer is she will probably need to live with us or in a group home setting her whole life.  Or if she finds a husband who can take care of her that could be an option but if something happens for him we go back to her living with one of us or a group home.  She can do jobs, but she doesn't "get it" when it comes to caring for a apartment, paying bills on time, etc.  She has a huge heart and loves to care for others (hence her desire to do CNA/nursing).  But she needs constant supervision unless she is doing a task that is basic and reactive (like cashier).


Getting a dx and sharing it with her would also be useful. Therapy could help her understand her strenghths and limitations and come up with a plan.

We had to tell our parents which of us should be designated in the will as a recommended guardian, and they wanted to set up whatever financial situation they could leave behind so it would pretty much all go to caring for her (and now her daughter) and one of us would be the administrator of the funds.  They felt they had to have full disclosure because there will be care issues someday that we will need to cover and we needed to know what we were signing up for.


Does you mom have guardianship or conservatorship? If this isn't established already, getting it in the future could be impossible. Especially given that she's working.

The child complicates things; most supported living settings aren't open to those with children. The other piece is that if mom is on spectrum, it's very likely the child has some issues as well. Is your sister up to advocating for the child to be sure she gets everything she needs at school and beyond? 

[Michelle]

Auntie, thank you for all your comments - you have so much experience in this!

I know my sister gets some disability assistance and have assumed it is SSI. My brother has the details. She has medicaid and her daughter has CHIP. ETA - she was in special education her whole school career so I will ask my brother to get copies of her records (or mom to give to brother, etc.).

My parents did not set up guardianship but I can ask about conservatorship. I do think she is functioning highly enough that it is hard. And they have always wanted to believe she could eventually support herself. They tried some independence (my dad bought a trailor for their country property and she lived in it on her own but they had to go tell her to clean, etc.). The legal situation with her daughter is dicey because the father wants custody so right now my sister has custody. I think if they do conservatorship that puts her custody at risk. The father is not a good father figure so it is a hard situation. But my sister does have a therapist and my step-mom worked (until my dad died) for an agency that provided care to people like my sister so she is well connected and in the know on navigating the situation.

My niece does seem to have delays but not as pronounced as my sister. My daughter is in "gifted and talented" and is the only same-age comparison I have had for my niece (who lives a couple of states away). So that isn't a fair comparison. But they are 2.5 months apart in age yet 2.5-3 years apart in school achievement, emotional development, etc. (Again not fair to try to compare - my daughter has a 5th grade reading level and is in 1st grade).