Response to Tosh's rape joke.

[WOT?*]

As seen on ML. I think it was very well done.

austin.culturemap.com/newsdetail/07-12-12-14-37-the-best-response-weve-heard-to-daniel-toshs-misquoted-rape-jokes/

(Modified to include the article rather than the link to the ML post.)

The best response we've heard to Daniel Tosh's 'misquoted' rape jokes






By Curtis Luciani

07.12.12 | 03:10 pm


Editor's note: By now, you've probably heard about the terrible (because it's all too common) incident that happened recently at the Hollywood Laugh Factory between comedian Daniel Tosh and a female audience member who was vocal about her displeasure with Tosh defending rape jokes in his stand-up act.

Tosh, who is known for his over-the-line comedy, both live and on-air, apologized over Twitter to the offended individual, providing some legitimacy to the claim that he went way over the line in this instance.

The he-said/she-said details of this particular instance, however, are far less important than the emerging discussion by comedians, feminists and media experts who have either expressed their support of Tosh or stand-up in general or commented upon the persistence of "off-limits" joke territories.

Lovers of the art form generally seem to agree that comedy is one of the few sacred spaces where commentary can be made on difficult, taboo topics in order to invite dialog. But most would also agree it takes a keenly honed sense of awareness and subtlety to execute these types of jokes successfully.

Of all the blog posts and news articles written about this recent flare-up of the age old comedy question so far, it's been Austin area comedian Curtis Luciani who offered up the most deceptively eloquent statement on the larger matter that we've seen yet. As a member of sketch comedy groups Your Terrific Neighbors and The Hustle Show, he's no stranger to flirting with that razon-thin line between hysterical and ostracizing. But he's also, clearly, a really smart dude who gets the meaning and use of satire.

Published with his permission, here's his response in its full, unapologetic glory (be advised: it contains dirty language) as it appeared on Facebook Wednesday.

---

Let's imagine a world in which women cut men's dicks off. Like, frequently. To the extent that one in five men has had his dick cut off by a woman or had a woman attempt to cut his dick off.

(I apologize immediately if it sounds like I'm being flip. I am not being flip. Imagine the pain and shame and humiliation of someone cutting your dick off. Imagine it in earnest.)

Sometimes it's a clear-cut case where a woman attacks you in the street, out of nowhere, and cuts your dick off. But more often it's a situation where you actually know the woman, maybe you trust her, maybe you think everything's okay, and then one day she cuts your dick off.

Still with me? This is going to take a while. I'll tell you when I'm done. (And if you think I'm being insufferably self-righteous: Good news, you don't have to read this!)

Okay, now let's also say that the shame and guilt around having your dick cut off is so strong that many dick-cuttings go completely unreported. After all, someone is likely to raise the question of whether or not you were "asking for it" in one way or another. And if you do accuse a woman of cutting your dick off, you can expect to see people (quite naturally) rally to her defense and slander your character in response.

You can expect to see her friends... who are maybe also friends or yours... shrug their shoulders and say "Well, I don't know, it's complicated... it sounds like something was just happening between the two of them and maybe it got out of hand. I dunno. But I know that Sarah's not a bad gal. I know she would never, like, MALICIOUSLY cut a dude's dick off."

So, a shitty state of affairs for the men-folk of our imaginary world, yes?

Now imagine that in this world, something like 90 percent of professional performing comedians are women. And they've accepted that there are certain codes of behavior when it comes to comedy. Most people who "like comedy" generally accept the premise that there are no subject areas that cannot be somehow given a comic treatment, but it is also accepted, as a practical rule, that as the subject gets more troubling, more intense, more painful, a more skilled approach is necessary to find the humor in it.

However, it is also accepted that people are people and they are going to have authentic responses to things. It is accepted, for example, that you probably should not go in front of an audience that contains several black people and start tossing around the n-word unless you have an EXCEPTIONALLY sophisticated and road-tested routine built around it, one that you are confident will overcome the very significant risk you are incurring. If a comedian did this and did NOT overcome the risk, no one would be shocked if the audience shouted her down and stormed her out of the club, nor would anyone be particularly eager to defend her.

HOWEVER, there's this ONE thing. Many of the comediennes of this world have this ONE little sticking point. One little thing. It just IRKS the hell out of them that they can't seem to make jokes about cutting dicks off without some whiny pussy male in the audience throwing a shit fit about it!

Now, sure, there's a few comediennes at the top of their game who can pull it off. Their approach is skillful, and they somehow make the joke without minimalizing or trivializing the actual pain involved. But then the rest of them think, "Well, geez, if they can do it, why can't I? It's not fair, darn it! I should be able to work with the same material as someone much better than me and get the same result and not make anyone hate me or say mean things about me on the Internet! Waaaaahhh!

"I mean, after all, do that many men REALLY get their dicks cut off? I've heard the statistic, but that's probably overblown. And I bet a lot of them were asking for it. I mean, in any case, there's a lot of grey area. I know one thing for sure: none of the men I KNOW has ever had his dick cut off. If they had, they would tell me, right? I mean, right? And besides, there's a principle at stake here. I AM AN ARTIST. I should be able to say whatever shitty thing I want, and people should be able to suppress their authentic response to it!

"And if they DON'T suppress their authentic response to it: why, that's censorship or something! Besides, I know this and that example of a time where a comedienne I know made a joke that wasn't even ABOUT dick-cutting, and some whiny pussy dude got upset about it anyway! It's just these humorless masculinists! They can't take a joke about anything anyway. So, since I can think of examples where a comedienne was unfairly criticized by someone without a sense of humor, this must be what happens in all cases."

Okay, I think we see what I'm getting at here.

Fine, yes, WHAT-THE-FUCK-EVER. I will concede the following points that every comedian wants us all so badly to concede:

1) Theoretically, there is no subject that should be considered off-limits for humor.

2) There will always be some example where a performer of extremely high skill can take something very painful and make it work.

But...

Here's what YOU need to understand:

1) Rape is way, WAY more prevalent than you seem to think it is. Are there more than five women in your audience? You do the math, and then you run the little fantasy scenario that I just put together in your head, and you tell me how it feels.

2) I ain't buying any of that "If I can make jokes about genocide, why can't I make jokes about rape?" Horseshit, unless you made those genocide jokes during a gig at the Srebrenica Funny Bone. You got away with making a joke about genocide because your odds of having a holocaust survivor's kid in the audience were pretty fucking low.

And if you did happen to have one in the audience, and he heckled you, walked out, and wrote something nasty on the internet... would you be more likely to be a human being and say "Wow. I can understand why that person's authentic response to what I was doing was so emotional and negative. Maybe my genocide material just isn't good enough to justify the pain that it inflicts. Maybe I need more skill in order to pull this off." Or are you gonna be a lousy piece of shit and say, "Yeah, I apologize, I guess, IF YOU WERE OFFENDED."

Offended hasn't got anything to do with it, moron.

People have wounds, and those wounds are painful. That doesn't have shit to do with the weak concept of "taking offense." If someone talks about Texas being a shitty state, I might "take offense" at that. Fine, whatever. All of us who like comedy are generally in agreement with the idea that "taking offense" is lame, and a comedian should be willing to "offend" whenever he or she wants to.

But causing pain is quite a different fucking matter. Your job as a comedian is to take us through pain, transcend pain, transform pain. And if you don't get that, you are a fucking bully, and I've got zero time for bullies.

[Deleted]

Awesome. It kind of reiterates the point I was trying to make last night, which is that if one wouldn't want something done to oneself, then it's probably wrong for one to do it to someone else.

I should probably see if the article has comments; if so l'll probably find some variation of "butbut two wrongs don't make a right!!"

[pixy0stix]

I think this is just a reiteration of the OP in the other thread. IF it's done in a tasteful way without demeaning the subject, it can be done. However, there's only a very small handful of comedians who would/could do it. The best bet is to not touch the subject at all.

[Deleted]

Link to The Onion's commentary:

www.theonion.com/articles/daniel-tosh-chuckles-through-own-violent-rape,28769/

[WOT?*]

Sorry SMS, I went through the other post and saw it was mentioned (and debated) in about pages 6-8 so I didn't include it. Totally worth the read for those who didn't go through all 14 pages of wtfedness. I did think the Onion post was funny, and it was about rape. So yes, it can be done, if done right.

And c'mon people, only 5 posts including mine? Is this Let's Not Piss Off Toledo Day?

ETA: I would like to thank the person who posted the 10 best heckler responses because that was classic. And you'll notice I modified this post rather than created another gratuitous response to add to the count and therefore threaten Toledo's equanimity.

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2012 18:02:50 GMT -5 WOT?* said:

Sorry SMS, I went through the other post and saw it was mentioned (and debated) in about pages 6-8 so I didn't include it. Totally worth the read for those who didn't go through all 14 pages of wtfedness. I did think the Onion post was funny, and it was about rape. So yes, it can be done, if done right.

And c'mon people, only 5 posts including mine? Is this Let's Not Piss Off Toledo Day?

No need to be sorry; I'm just glad you mentioned that The Onion commented.

FWIW, not to keep going all Golden Rule on everyone but I saw TO's piece as a commentary on the shoe being on the other foot.

[WOT?*]

Adding a gratuitous response to point out my earlier edit.

[bluestreet]

I just met Curtis the other day! His wife and I are in a writing group together. Cool.

[brit1017]

Thanks for posting this. It sums up the feelings that I couldn't express after reading the (at the time) 7 pger this morning.

[bluestreet]

So, Curtis Luciani's wife shared Curtis's article on FB, and she noted that women try to say shit like this and get trashed for being men-hating freaks. So some dude comments on her thread and says she's just jealous that her husband's piece is going viral (even though she is the one who usually writes for the magazine). She responded with this poignant piece below, which is currently just posted on her FB page.

On Rape, Speech, and Professional Jealousy
by Amy Gentry on Friday, July 13, 2012 at 8:32pm ·

This is dedicated to a guy I turned down for a date in 2004. That's neither here nor there of course, just a jerky opening remark. But he hit a nerve today by suggesting that I am jealous of my husband Curtis Luciani's recent internet fame, as the male comedian who stood up and condemned rape jokes.

You’re right Malcolm. I am jealous. Not jealous – enraged, though not at him. I know half a dozen women who could have written more eloquently on the topic, who have written more eloquently on the topic. Not because Curtis's post wasn't amazing, nor because they’re smarter than him in general, but because they are smarter about this. Because they’ve lived it.

Dude, you got me. I'm jealous, and that started yesterday. But the rage didn't start yesterday. It may shock you to know that I was enraged long before I met Curtis! Here's the story of how!

I’ve been enraged since the first time one of my friends said those three magic words to me: “I was raped.” I was 14 at the time. The rape happened when she was 11.

Then there was freshman year in college, when one of my closest friends was raped at knifepoint on her way home from school. She was 17.

Then there was the girl in college who woke up to find someone fucking her while she was passed out. I didn’t know her very well, but I remember her nervously saying that it was sort of her fault.

Then there was the woman, my age, who was raped by a 21-year-old when she was 14, but they were going out, she said, so it wasn’t really rape.

Then there was the girl I met at camp who had been raped at the age of 6 by her brother’s friend.

Then there was the woman who was – actually I can’t even go into it, that one is too horrible. It was her boyfriend.

These six women spring instantly to mind because out of all my female acquaintance, they are the ones who have told me about their sexual assault, either because it came up during conversation, or because it happened while I knew them. I know a lot of other women, too, but I am not taking for granted that they were not sexually assaulted.

Oh, I just remembered another one! She was 4 years old when it happened.

I’ve never been sexually assaulted. I don’t know why. Too tall? That can’t be right, because I know a tall, strong woman who was raped by her boyfriend in her mid-20s. Too ugly? More appealing than a 6-year-old, I’d like to think. I tend to think it’s because I’m lucky.

I have been physically threatened by men, though. Who hasn’t? In all sincerity, what woman hasn’t? It’s not just the sound of footsteps behind you when you’re walking home alone from the campus bar. It’s the sudden, cold feeling, when you’re on a date with some guy from the internet and you either kiss him or don't kiss him, and he gets this terrifying look on his face, that maybe you’re going to end the night cut up into pieces in his trunk.

That’s a joke I make with my women friends. That’s my code for “that date was not going very well.” Like, everything was going fine, and then he started touching me and wouldn’t stop when I tried to move away, and I thought, cool it Amy, back away slowly, you don’t want to end up in pieces in a fucking trunk.

It’s not that I don’t believe men have the right to say things about the trauma caused by these incidents, their slow or rapid accrual over a lifetime. I do. I thank God that a few of them, a couple, okay let’s be honest, one that I can think of offhand right now, choose to speak up about it. I’m profoundly grateful. Because people will listen to that dude. After all, his anger isn’t the anger of some hysterical pussy who doesn’t know jack about comedy and is probably just mad that no one wants to lay her. It’s the anger of a funny, smart, intelligent man who honestly deserves every bit of respect he gets, and way more.

But the woman who stood up in the comedy club to say the same thing was belittled, all over the fucking internet, although the event in question had actually happened to her. It didn’t happen to me, and I don’t know jack about comedy, and anyway I’m probably just mad that no one wants to lay me! Which is why I stayed out of it. But I certainly think I’m justified in thinking that the men of the comedy world wanted to shut that woman up just as fast as they could, by any means necessary, along with any woman who dared to defend her.

It’s not that I am not profoundly, deeply, eternally grateful, to whatever God I believe in, that I ended up with the man who not only had the guts to say it, but the sterling reputation to get heard. Not only did I kiss a lot of frogs on the way to finding this man, I backed away slowly from a lot of frogs who seemed like they might be thinking about cutting me up and putting me in a trunk.

And no! In case you’re wondering, I don’t personally know any woman who was cut up and put into a trunk. I just read the fucking news.

Oh god I just remembered another one! Freshman year. Molested by her stepfather. Maybe this is why I have such a fucking chip on my shoulder about molestation jokes. Contra the comedian from last night, she didn't turn out to be a stripper. SHE TURNED OUT TO BE A HUMAN BEING, YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE.

I am, however, enraged that the women who experience the very feelings of trauma and woundedness that Curtis talks about in his article, will never, ever, ever in a million years get a slow clap on the internet for talking about it.

Would I like a slow clap? Sure! Would I like a slow clap for the female and non-white friends of mine who are way fucking smarter about this than me and Curtis combined? Sure would. Would I like page hits for the feminist posts on my defunct blog? Do I want my ideas for feminist stories to get picked up instead of dismissed with a “people might think this is just a reactionary feminist talking”? Hell yes. Yes, I want them. I want them. I want to be heard and I want my friends to be fucking heard and I goddam well want the rape victims who are sitting silently in audiences, because if they speak someone will threaten them with rape, to be heard.

So yes, I’m jealous. You caught me. I’m jealous. I wanted to be the one that changed people’s minds. I have 34 more years of experience in being a woman than he does, and probably 20 more years of experience thinking about it. I wanted to be the one. But the only way to do that is for me to start talking and not shut up, even when I'm afraid people are going to hate or dismiss me, even when dudes, who are so! clever! find ever more cutting and close-to-home ways to shut me down.

I wish I were a feminist hero. Thanks for bringing me one step closer to trying, dude.

ETA: She writes for Culture Map: austin.culturemap.com/author/amy_gentry/articles/