Things like this reinforce my belief that the death penalty should be abolished. They committed horrific crimes, but I am a firm believer that people who can commit crimes such as these must be mentally ill, and therefore I think we have a responsibility to not act in kind and kill them. Ugh.
I am as anti-DP as they come but it's a slippery slope calling anyone who commits horrific crimes mentally ill. People can really just be that evil without being ill.
I'm sorry only that he wasn't the one to suffer for an hour before dying.
Those of us who are against the death penalty, to include this victim's mother, are not swayed by this. I will never be okay killing someone who is strapped down and not currently an active danger to society. I've been trained to kill people, which I accept is necessary, but I'm not about to purposefully kill someone who is unarmed and not an active threat.
Right, the victim's mother who left her child alone with this POS in the first place who asked for clemency. I don't find that particularly convincing.
I just don't have a problem with death being the punishment for the very most heinous of crimes that show you are not capable of ever living by the rules of civilization.
I don't understand why the reaction to a botched state execution changes when you discover what crime he committed.
Or did you guys think that they execute people for check kiting?
I'm here.
I'm against the death penalty for a variety of reasons. Emotionally, I get why people want criminals like these to suffer and don't really give a shit if they suffer as they die. I think that's a natural, human reaction.
But I don't think laws or significant actions by the state (such as taking another life) should be dictated by emotion. The details of this botched execution sound horrific. The crimes by these two even more so. But I don't think the one cancels the other out.
And what about the recent study showing that 1 in 25 death row inmates is likely innocent? What if the next time that an execution is botched the dead man is later exonerated? The system itself is unreliable and corrupt, whether or not you believe it's just for these two inmates to die for their crimes.
I'm anti death penalty but I also have no fucks to give about a horrible person suffering. At the same time, I do hold the state to a higher standard if they are going to carry out these executions and believe that it should be humane.
So I'm not really sure how this story makes me feel. And to be clear, I am not anti death penalty because I have some moral objection to it (bad Catholic right here) but because of the logistics (expensive appeals process, possibility for error/innocents wrongly convicted and fuck ups like this one among other things). But I am not outraged or sad for this man.
The only sad thing about this is that the other fucker was spared for another time.
They should have just taken him out back and done it with the firing squad.
So I'm going to be the fun killer and say that I DO care that a human being was being somewhat... tortured to death in a way.
But I believe that studies have shown that firing squad by trained snipers is actually the quickest and most humane way to kill someone. Some states let you choose it. Utah, for example.
But if cases like botched lethal injections lead to the death penalty being outlawed in more and more areas, I'm okay with that decision.
I can't say I'm all that sorry but you know, the state has certain responsibilities, ffs. I can hate this dude, hate what he did, be glad his life is over and still be utterly sick at the massive incompetence it takes to give someone an experimental cocktail of ineffective drugs and let them take a fucking hour to succumb to them.
No and no.
And I'm ripshit pissed that companies with an anti death penalty stance are getting fucking cute about providing this meds. I don't see that as any different than all of the ways states go about subverting abortion rights because they can't get the practice itself outlawed.
The death penalty is legal in certain states. Refusing to provide the proper, tested combination of meds to make a point is only going to hurt those who are sent to die. I know I'm not supposed to care about them and on an individual level, I don't. But there's kind of a line here and it's similar to how I feel about inmates receiving proper medical care, mental illness therapy, proper food to eat, and something of a half way decent standard of care.
The state has resumed responsibility of these people. You can't just say fuck it, and let them live and die however.
I can't say how angry this makes me enough. The government does not have an inalienable right to kill people. The death penalty is not mandatory. It's an option, which is decided by either judge or jury in states where it is legal and used. The other option is life in prison. If the system works, someone who rapes and murders a baby is never, ever going to see the light of day again. Which in essence creates the same solution that killing that person does. With abortion, there's no option but to give birth. Plus the rights to privacy and bodily integrity.
Also, AFAIK, the lethal injection cocktail is similar to what is used to put pets to sleep at the vet. I find it hard to believe the states can't fucking experiment with this stuff on rats before trying to give it to prisoners. That is absolutely inhumane. That's why there are laws about the way in which prisoners must be treated.
From what I remember the drugs are of European origin. The manufacturers weren't aware of what they were being used for and once they were they refused to sell to the states.
Don't shoot the messenger on this. Shoot the radio station that said it (probably NPR).
LOL I won't because the concept still stands. These manufacturers decided to refuse to sell them in the hopes we'd what? Stop executing people? Yeah, that worked.
You know the other probably I have with refusing to care about the issue as a whole? People don't care about Shanesha Taylor either and the larger issue surrounding the inability to find daycare at all, nevermind quality daycare. Getting caught up in the individual details of an individual case leads to an overall issue with getting this shit resolved. This person is an asshole, therefore I don't care about the problem we have in this country with people getting in this situation in the first place.
It's problematic to say the least.
Yes, it's hilarious when people stand up for their beliefs in human rights by boycotting things or refusing service. I honestly wish more companies had some damned integrity and didn't prostitute themselves for any reason, as long as the end result is money.
I don't understand why the reaction to a botched state execution changes when you discover what crime he committed.
Or did you guys think that they execute people for check kiting?
To be honest, this is what I am struggling with. I am typically anti death penalty, but when a story like this comes out and I read the specifics of what this guy did, my instinct is to say good riddance and too bad for him. But that is in direct contast with my anti DP stance.
I should have just waited until HBC had responded.
There is no moral right when it comes to individuals who have committed crimes so great they are faced with the death penalty. Either they are faced with death by a government who could give two shits about them, or they are imprisoned for life in a daily psychological torture chamber that is high security prison. There have been several studies that show imprisonment exacerbates any underlying psychological conditions, and rather than treat them, prisoners are left in their own mental morass. Again, there is no moral high ground on this, other than to salve whatever individual guilt you may have by telling yourself one way is better.
Our prison system is irreparably broken. So broken. We don't focus on rehabilitation. We focus on containment and torture, and at this rate, it's never going to change.
Also, has anyone been watching the documentaries regarding solitary confinement that have been airing?
I'm anti death penalty but I also have no fucks to give about a horrible person suffering. At the same time, I do hold the state to a higher standard if they are going to carry out these executions and believe that it should be humane.
So I'm not really sure how this story makes me feel. And to be clear, I am not anti death penalty because I have some moral objection to it (bad Catholic right here) but because of the logistics (expensive appeals process, possibility for error/innocents wrongly convicted and fuck ups like this one among other things). But I am not outraged or sad for this man.
My thinking brain is appalled at the incompetent actions of the state, which should be held to the highest of moral standards.
My Animal hindbrain is cackling with awful glee. This is most of why I think the state had no business with the DP
I am mighty uncomfortable with the government not knowing how to execute someone or doing it experimentally. Human subjects of experimental medical procedures are supposed to consent. And when they fucked it up, the officials just threw up their hands and seemed to just watch it go down.
I am less concerned about the man's death than I am about the larger implications .
I am mighty uncomfortable with the government not knowing how to execute someone or doing it experimentally. Human subjects of experimental medical procedures are supposed to consent. And when they tucked it up, the officials just threw up their hands and seemed to just watch it go down.
I am less concerned about the man's death than I am about the larger implications .
Mmmm yeah this too. If we insist on it I'd support a return to firing squad.
Why wouldn't they be able to use something like a high dose of morphine to execute without all of these complications? It seems to me that if you are going to have the DP there are already a bunch of existing drugs on the market that could be used.
Why wouldn't they be able to use something like a high dose of morphine to execute without all of these complications? It seems to me that if you are going to have the DP there are already a bunch of existing drugs on the market that could be used.
1) they'll get the high. 2) morphine will still take around 7 minutes to start peaking 3) a standard method may not be able to used. Prisons are notorious for drug use leading to tolerance. I've seen non-narc dependent patients receive 10mg at once plus additional post-op. they will still awake and talking.
Why wouldn't they be able to use something like a high dose of morphine to execute without all of these complications? It seems to me that if you are going to have the DP there are already a bunch of existing drugs on the market that could be used.
This. I really don't get why they have trouble killing someone, it is actually very easy. DP debate aside.
Oh he is the one who buried the woman alive? Still don't care.
Agreed totally. He suffocated like his victim did. I see that as justice.
FWIW I absolutely agree with NewOrleans and others who stated our government shouldn't be carrying out experiments on people. As heyjude so nicely put it in her thread about folks calling cops on kids for reading a book " What year is this? What Country is this?". That said I completely shut down when reading the details of the crime hence my thoughts. Is it rational? Nope, but it is how I feel take it or leave it.
If the system works, someone who rapes and murders a baby is never, ever going to see the light of day again. Which in essence creates the same solution that killing that person does.
No, no it isn't. Certain people take perverse pleasure in reliving their crimes for the rest of their lives. Allowing them to sit around watching CNN, shiving their fellow inmates, and generally being in a state of jobless drudgery while being fed and clothed and given access to ice cream and cable television is not the same solution as the death penalty, especially for people who get it up for rape and murder.
ETA: Oh and let's not forget the massive amount of drugs that move through our prison system or how the prison system itself enables crime by getting people involved in vast gang networks that control drug networks and enable other forms of violent crime both inside prison and outside.
So let's not pretend these guys are just sitting in a cell 23/7 regretting their crime with an hour of calisthenics to break up the monotony.
Why wouldn't they be able to use something like a high dose of morphine to execute without all of these complications? It seems to me that if you are going to have the DP there are already a bunch of existing drugs on the market that could be used.
1) they'll get the high. 2) morphine will still take around 7 minutes to start peaking 3) a standard method may not be able to used. Prisons are notorious for drug use leading to tolerance. I've seen non-narc dependent patients receive 10mg at once plus additional post-op. they will still awake and talking.
I appreciate that but you can't tell me that you can't put them under general anesthesia, then give them an OD of meds that will stop their breathing/heart. Politics aside, it isn't that complicated. If it is being monitored by a physician, it should never come to experimental cocktails of drugs.
Why wouldn't they be able to use something like a high dose of morphine to execute without all of these complications? It seems to me that if you are going to have the DP there are already a bunch of existing drugs on the market that could be used.
1) they'll get the high. 2) morphine will still take around 7 minutes to start peaking 3) a standard method may not be able to used. Prisons are notorious for drug use leading to tolerance. I've seen non-narc dependent patients receive 10mg at once plus additional post-op. they will still awake and talking.
True that a narcotic death they would feel no pain so is the point of putting someone to death that they just die or that they should be in pain as they die? Honestly I feel like fighting violence with violence doesn't get us anywhere but if you are going to put people to death get it right.
Yes, it's hilarious when people stand up for their beliefs in human rights by boycotting things or refusing service. I honestly wish more companies had some damned integrity and didn't prostitute themselves for any reason, as long as the end result is money.
I was laughing at the don't shoot the messenger part.
And my only parallel to the abortion issue is that the anti-abortion crowd is standing up for their beliefs as well and we chide them roundly when their efforts to do so cause more pain and difficulty for the people they claim to want to help.
1) they'll get the high. 2) morphine will still take around 7 minutes to start peaking 3) a standard method may not be able to used. Prisons are notorious for drug use leading to tolerance. I've seen non-narc dependent patients receive 10mg at once plus additional post-op. they will still awake and talking.
I appreciate that but you can't tell me that you can't put them under general anesthesia, then give them an OD of meds that will stop their breathing/heart. Politics aside, it isn't that complicated. If it is being monitored by a physician, it should never come to experimental cocktails of drugs.
I view your example as a waste of resources and even more ethical issues. Of course anything that is given in exteme doses can cause heart to stop but whether that is ethical can be up for debate. Anesthesia was mot designed to kill people. You can give sedateds to intubate- they can take a few minutes to work but they you'll going to put in a breathing tube. You can give medications to make someone's blood pressure low or high- but once again it can take minutes and cause additional pain. In nursing school they always teach to never give Potassium IVP as it will cause instant death. I don't know why that's not used.
1) they'll get the high. 2) morphine will still take around 7 minutes to start peaking 3) a standard method may not be able to used. Prisons are notorious for drug use leading to tolerance. I've seen non-narc dependent patients receive 10mg at once plus additional post-op. they will still awake and talking.
True that a narcotic death they would feel no pain so is the point of putting someone to death that they just die or that they should be in pain as they die? Honestly I feel like fighting violence with violence doesn't get us anywhere but if you are going to put people to death get it right.
Once it's peaked you don't feel anything. It's the high when its peaking.
fwiw, I seriously, really understand where everyone is coming from-- the visceral reaction to cheer over the end this guy met. Half of me feels that way too, trust. I'm just uncomfortable with how this went down.
So I am sitting square in the middle feeling kind of shivery.