I've actually been IN that death chamber (like, the actual room where the inmate is executed) in Oklahoma accompanying a colleague on a graduate course tour. Learning about how it works, I think, actually made me more anti-death penalty, in part because I'm so sickened by the process. When I was there (prior to the new drugs) there were three drugs administered, and they were actually administered by private citizens who were each paid $50.00 for their services. A nurse put in the IV, but each citizen pushed one of the plungers (from behind a wall) into the IV. I think the thing that grossed me out the most is that citizens write in to the governor's office "applying" for these positions. I can *maybe* see wanting to be a part of the death of someone who killed your sister, but you don't know when you get called up which inmate you will be executed. I can't express it well, but that most people won't write a letter to their congress people but these folks will write in begging to execute someone really made me feel uncomfortable. It's almost like the state is facilitating more people's desires to kill.
That said, I'm totally fine with people being in death-row-esque cells forever. There are FAR fewer privileges there (e.g., no visitation, locked down in solitary cells nearly all the time, getting out, essentially, for one shower/week.
Holy shit to your whole first paragraph. I did not know that.
We all agree that the justice system is a piece of crap, and people are wrongfully convicted all the time.
However, there are people that are completely and 100% guilty. Ted Bundy, John Gacy, Timothy McVeigh... should these men have been spared and allowed to stay in the penal system? I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced to life and prison, and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate. Saved the state a few bucks I guess. The men, who you avow have no humanity left, should have been kept alive simply because... they were alive?
Yeah, in Dahmer's case it would have been more humane to put him in front of a firing squad rather than how he died.
That being said, in the case of serial killers in particular, they are often given life without parole because withholding the death sentence is how we've gotten them to give up the locations of the bodies they've buried and details about their victims.
Except the ones I listed were not. They were all eventually executed.
Yeah, in Dahmer's case it would have been more humane to put him in front of a firing squad rather than how he died.
That being said, in the case of serial killers in particular, they are often given life without parole because withholding the death sentence is how we've gotten them to give up the locations of the bodies they've buried and details about their victims.
Except the ones I listed were not. They were all eventually executed.
I am thinking this might be to me? TO me, they have healthcare, they get 3 square meals, they get shelter. I don't care much else. I do have a problem with killing (anyone). I do have a problem with how unbalanced our judicial system is with regard to minority people/incarcertated. I do have a problem with wrongful convictions. I guess that is where it is morally superior....erring on the side of caution, even if 99.9% sure the person did it.
We all agree that the justice system is a piece of crap, and people are wrongfully convicted all the time.
However, there are people that are completely and 100% guilty. Ted Bundy, John Gacy, Timothy McVeigh... should these men have been spared and allowed to stay in the penal system? I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced to life and prison, and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate. Saved the state a few bucks I guess. The men, who you avow have no humanity left, should have been kept alive simply because... they were alive?
Yes, again, I don't agree with eye for an eye type justice. I can't pick and choose where my beliefs should fit, even if I find these perpetrators guilty because of the aforementioned reasons. Even for those you mentioned.
I've actually been IN that death chamber (like, the actual room where the inmate is executed) in Oklahoma accompanying a colleague on a graduate course tour. Learning about how it works, I think, actually made me more anti-death penalty, in part because I'm so sickened by the process. When I was there (prior to the new drugs) there were three drugs administered, and they were actually administered by private citizens who were each paid $50.00 for their services. A nurse put in the IV, but each citizen pushed one of the plungers (from behind a wall) into the IV. I think the thing that grossed me out the most is that citizens write in to the governor's office "applying" for these positions. I can *maybe* see wanting to be a part of the death of someone who killed your sister, but you don't know when you get called up which inmate you will be executed. I can't express it well, but that most people won't write a letter to their congress people but these folks will write in begging to execute someone really made me feel uncomfortable. It's almost like the state is facilitating more people's desires to kill.
That said, I'm totally fine with people being in death-row-esque cells forever. There are FAR fewer privileges there (e.g., no visitation, locked down in solitary cells nearly all the time, getting out, essentially, for one shower/week.
I get what your saying but all of the positions are voluntary (minus the Warden/Governor). You can't have a professional medical person complete the actual injections- theres more ethical/legal that goes along with that. A lot of cops and previous guards choose to volunteer. They view it as their civil obligation to ensure justice.
I guess I'm not seeing how letting someone go insane for the next 30-40 years isn't just a longer drawn form of revenge that's similar to an eye for an eye.
But again, I'm not arguing that we should execute anyone facing a lifelong jail sentence. I just don't see the moral superiority.
Supposedly in the early 90s, and doctor was called in to place an IV in a patient who had a long history of intravenous drug use (the doctor specialized in finding deep veins). Usually doctors can only be used to confirm the lack of vital signs and announce the time of death, but by doing this, the doctor became part of the execution team. Some people pitched an ethical fit and Georgia passed a law that doctors acting in any capacity on an execution team would have legal protection from professional repercussions.
I have two more pages of responses to read, but wanted to throw out the example of the Ice Man. That guy has been in prison since the 80s, murdered hundreds of people, and still doesn't think he had a choice in any of them. I don't think he can be rehabilitated. I don't know that we should kill him though.
He died in 2006. Have you seen the movie they did about him? It was very good. Slow pacing but excellent acting.
I guess I'm not seeing how letting someone go insane for the next 30-40 years isn't just a longer drawn form of revenge that's similar to an eye for an eye.
But again, I'm not arguing that we should execute anyone facing a lifelong jail sentence. I just don't see the moral superiority.
I think it boils down to viewing it differently...punishment vs torture plus health services, in some fashion.
He died in 2006. Have you seen the movie they did about him? It was very good. Slow pacing but excellent acting.
I have not! We had to watch a bunch of interviews, but I did not see the movie. I'll have to find that. Can you give me a spoiler and tell me how he died?
Oh he died in prison. It was a postscript of the movie so no spoilers. Apparently, his death was listed as natural causes with no manner of death given.
If government doesn't have the right to take a criminal's life, does society have an obligation to keep him alive? And I'm really only talking about the Julian Castro Jeffrey Dahmer types of criminals.
If government doesn't have the right to take a criminal's life, does society have an obligation to keep him alive? And I'm really only talking about the Julian Castro Jeffrey Dahmer types of criminals.
In so much as to serve said sentence, imo, so yes.
We all agree that the justice system is a piece of crap, and people are wrongfully convicted all the time.
However, there are people that are completely and 100% guilty. Ted Bundy, John Gacy, Timothy McVeigh... should these men have been spared and allowed to stay in the penal system? I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced to life and prison, and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate. Saved the state a few bucks I guess. The men, who you avow have no humanity left, should have been kept alive simply because... they were alive?
Yes.
It's really as simple as that. I don't believe the state has any business in assessing who is still human and who is not, and giving the murder order.
Sitting with Toledo here. Words I haven't ever said before
I have not! We had to watch a bunch of interviews, but I did not see the movie. I'll have to find that. Can you give me a spoiler and tell me how he died?
Oh he died in prison. It was a postscript of the movie so no spoilers. Apparently, his death was listed as natural causes with no manner of death given.
Please don't be mad at me if this info has been posted in this thread. I don't want to read the thread.
The lethal injection in the botched Oklahoma execution was given through the inmate’s groin after a specialist could not find a good spot on his arms, legs or feet, the state’s prison chief revealed Thursday.
Clayton Lockett’s legal team denounced the method as “invasive and painful,” speculated that it was done incorrectly and accused the state of trying to “whitewash” the death-row debacle.
The new details about how the three-drug combination was administered came in a letter from Department of Corrections director Robert Patton to Governor Mary Fallin, which also disclosed that Lockett was Tasered and cut his own arm in the hours before the execution.
Patton recommended an indefinite delay in executions until a review of the state's lethal injection protocol ordered by Fallin is complete.
Fallin had ordered a two-week delay in the next execution, but Patton said it could take longer "to refine the new protocols."
"I intend to explore best practices from other states and ensure the Oklahoma protocol adopts proven standards," he wrote.
He also suggested that state officials more senior than a prison warden should have the responsibility of making execution decisions.
Lockett’s death has renewed debate over the use of lethal injections amid drug shortages that have forced states to come up with new execution formulas.
Witnesses have said Lockett, 38, appeared to be awake, in pain and struggling several minutes after he was declared unconscious.
His movements on the death-chamber gurney were not mentioned in Patton's timeline of the execution, which did reveal that Lockett was not cooperative during execution preparations.
Prison officers used a stun-gun on condemned man when he refused to be restrained for pre-execution medical X-rays, Patton said.
During the subsequent exam, a "self-inflicted laceration" was discovered on his right arm, but it did not require stitches, he wrote.
Lockett, 38, also refused final visits with his lawyers and his last meal.
After he was brought to the execution chamber, a phlebotomist could not find a good place on his arms, legs and feet to put the IV and instead ran the line into his groin.
Other key points in the timeline:
6:18 p.m. — Lethal injection IV lines are inserted. 6:23 p.m. — The first drug, midazolam, is given to cause loss of consciousness. 6:33 p.m. — Doctor declares Lockett unconscious and begins administering two other drugs, the paralytic vecuronium bromide and the heart-stopper potassium chloride. 6:42 p.m. — Shades lowered to block view by witnesses. 6:44 to 6:56 p.m. — Doctor reports blood vein collapsed, drugs either absorbed into tissue, leaked out, or both. Doctor says not enough drugs have been administered to cause death, that no other vein is available, and that not enough drugs remain. The doctor detects a faint heartbeat. 6:56 p.m. — Execution is halted. 7:06 p.m. — Lockett pronounced dead.
NBC News' Tracy Connor contributed to this report.
Please don't be mad at me if this info has been posted in this thread. I don't want to read the thread.
The lethal injection in the botched Oklahoma execution was given through the inmate’s groin after a specialist could not find a good spot on his arms, legs or feet, the state’s prison chief revealed Thursday.
Clayton Lockett’s legal team denounced the method as “invasive and painful,” speculated that it was done incorrectly and accused the state of trying to “whitewash” the death-row debacle.
The new details about how the three-drug combination was administered came in a letter from Department of Corrections director Robert Patton to Governor Mary Fallin, which also disclosed that Lockett was Tasered and cut his own arm in the hours before the execution.
Patton recommended an indefinite delay in executions until a review of the state's lethal injection protocol ordered by Fallin is complete.
Fallin had ordered a two-week delay in the next execution, but Patton said it could take longer "to refine the new protocols."
"I intend to explore best practices from other states and ensure the Oklahoma protocol adopts proven standards," he wrote.
He also suggested that state officials more senior than a prison warden should have the responsibility of making execution decisions.
Lockett’s death has renewed debate over the use of lethal injections amid drug shortages that have forced states to come up with new execution formulas.
Witnesses have said Lockett, 38, appeared to be awake, in pain and struggling several minutes after he was declared unconscious.
His movements on the death-chamber gurney were not mentioned in Patton's timeline of the execution, which did reveal that Lockett was not cooperative during execution preparations.
Prison officers used a stun-gun on condemned man when he refused to be restrained for pre-execution medical X-rays, Patton said.
During the subsequent exam, a "self-inflicted laceration" was discovered on his right arm, but it did not require stitches, he wrote.
Lockett, 38, also refused final visits with his lawyers and his last meal.
After he was brought to the execution chamber, a phlebotomist could not find a good place on his arms, legs and feet to put the IV and instead ran the line into his groin.
Other key points in the timeline:
6:18 p.m. — Lethal injection IV lines are inserted. 6:23 p.m. — The first drug, midazolam, is given to cause loss of consciousness. 6:33 p.m. — Doctor declares Lockett unconscious and begins administering two other drugs, the paralytic vecuronium bromide and the heart-stopper potassium chloride. 6:42 p.m. — Shades lowered to block view by witnesses. 6:44 to 6:56 p.m. — Doctor reports blood vein collapsed, drugs either absorbed into tissue, leaked out, or both. Doctor says not enough drugs have been administered to cause death, that no other vein is available, and that not enough drugs remain. The doctor detects a faint heartbeat. 6:56 p.m. — Execution is halted. 7:06 p.m. — Lockett pronounced dead.
NBC News' Tracy Connor contributed to this report.
The problem I see with this is that people are going to say, "If they want to commit suicide, then there must be something wrong with them mentally."
Didn't this get sorted out with Gary Gilmore?
My all time favorite book is The Executioners Song by Norman Mailer. It's a fascinating read into Gilmore and the reinstatement of the DP. There were people lobbying for Gilmore (against his wishes) trying to use the mental illness angle.