I understand why people are jumping on me, but I really don't think what I'm saying is very controversial.
I never said I want women with medical issues or on the verge of a nervous breakdown to be pressured into BFing.
I agree that no parent can make optimal parenting choices 100% of the time. But BF/FF is a pretty major choice. I'm not the one who made the french fry comparison, but since it's out there... you seriously wouldn't judge a mom who fed her kids McDonald's everyday and never even TRIED to give them a healthy meal? (I know this comparison's a stretch, but I don't feel like my prior posts have gotten my point across.)
Given the AAP's statement that lack of BFing is a national health crisis, I think our society's opinions desperately need to shift in favor of BFing. It's tough to support FF without discouraging BFing and vice versa. It's a very fine line, and right now I think we're too much on the FF side. The ideal would be that every new mom feels she should give BFing a shot if she's able to, but not feel guilty if it doesn't work out. I don't know how we can achieve that balance.
And maybe I should have just stuck to lurking on MM.
I tried (with the help of a lactation consultant) but one of my boys just never figured it out. The other did, and he alternated between BF and drinking pumped bottles for about 6 months. I pumped around the clock and made enough for their entire daily intake for about 7.5 months until my supply dropped and I had to supplement.
I would have loved to BF (my siblings and I were all BF 18+ months) but it just wasn't in the cards for me.
ETA: I don't get the french fry comparison. Formula isn't as good as breastmilk, but it's still good for babies and a healthy thing for them to drink.
I bf and supplimented with formula with both kids. I'm sure many people thought they were only ff and judged me for it, which sucks because I tried everything and still had guilt about not ebf even though I nursed each kid for a year.
Exactly. My boys were getting bottles of breastmilk and I'm sure I got side-eyed for it. I wanted to shout from the rooftops "Do you know how much WORK it took to get this milk???"
I'm not the one who made the french fry comparison, but since it's out there... you seriously wouldn't judge a mom who fed her kids McDonald's everyday and never even TRIED to give them a healthy meal? (I know this comparison's a stretch, but I don't feel like my prior posts have gotten my point across.)
I don't think the analogy is accurate. I would judge a mom who fed her kid McDonalds for every meal, just as I would judge a mom who fed her infant cow or goat milk or watered-down formula to save money, as both options are nutritionally adequate. I would not, however, judge a mom who fed her kid a typical American kid diet consisting mostly of turkey sandwiches, carrot sticks, chicken nuggets, apple slices, mac and cheese, milk, yogurt, etc. (with the occassional Happy Meal thrown in), as such a diet, like formula, is adequate even if it is not as optimal as, say, quinoa, wild caught salmon, and organic blueberries. Optimal is best, adequate is fine, and inadequate is judge-worthy. Formula is most certainly adequate. McDonalds every day is, IMO, not.
I'm not the one who made the french fry comparison, but since it's out there... you seriously wouldn't judge a mom who fed her kids McDonald's everyday and never even TRIED to give them a healthy meal? (I know this comparison's a stretch, but I don't feel like my prior posts have gotten my point across.)
I don't think the analogy is accurate. I would judge a mom who fed her kid McDonalds for every meal, just as I would judge a mom who fed her infant cow or goat milk or watered-down formula to save money, as both options are nutritionally adequate. I would not, however, judge a mom who fed her kid a typical American kid diet consisting mostly of turkey sandwiches, carrot sticks, chicken nuggets, apple slices, mac and cheese, milk, yogurt, etc. (with the occassional Happy Meal thrown in), as such a diet, like formula, is adequate even if it is not as optimal as, say, quinoa, wild caught salmon, and organic blueberries. Optimal is best, adequate is fine, and inadequate is judge-worthy. Formula is most certainly adequate. McDonalds every day is, IMO, not.
:Y:
I'm curious: has anyone seen a study that indicates how big the benefit of bfing over ffing really is? I mean, I think we all know that "breast is best" from a medical standpoint, but is the difference really great enough to justify the enormous pressure we put on women nowadays to ebf, to the point where some feel compelled to move heaven and earth to make it work or feel guilty for months or even years after giving up "early"?
Well, McDs isn't healthy and there are lots of other options. Formula isn't unhealthy. And there are only 2 food options for infants. I dunno, I don't think it is tough to support fF without discouraging BF.
I will say I wish more moms that think BFingnhas to be directly from the tap had access to info about pumping and that there were affordable pumps.
Again, this is why I think (or I guess wish) there should be more than 2 options! I know a lot of ladies who have a ton of pumped milk. Heck, I would keep pumping after I weaned DS to give to babies that needed it, and I know other moms that would do this as well.
I do have problems with the way formula is marketed. I also don't get why some insurance will cover certain formulas but won't cover breast pumps (when both could be vital to the health of a baby IMO).
But again, I really don't think the issue is people not trying to BF because as I said before 74% of women do try.
However, there are MANY MANY women out there that don't know that breastmilk has benefits that formula can't give (and if you read the studies on breastfeeding by income and race this is very very clear). It is a delicate subject though. It seems that almost every BFing post on here turns into an argument or folks get offended. I have even heard folks say they were upset because a nurse in the hospital gave them breastfeeding literature. There has to be some middle ground where it is okay to talk about the importance and value of breastfeeding without it automatically being judgmental and offensive.
I don't think the analogy is accurate. I would judge a mom who fed her kid McDonalds for every meal, just as I would judge a mom who fed her infant cow or goat milk or watered-down formula to save money, as both options are nutritionally adequate. I would not, however, judge a mom who fed her kid a typical American kid diet consisting mostly of turkey sandwiches, carrot sticks, chicken nuggets, apple slices, mac and cheese, milk, yogurt, etc. (with the occassional Happy Meal thrown in), as such a diet, like formula, is adequate even if it is not as optimal as, say, quinoa, wild caught salmon, and organic blueberries. Optimal is best, adequate is fine, and inadequate is judge-worthy. Formula is most certainly adequate. McDonalds every day is, IMO, not.
I'm curious: has anyone seen a study that indicates how big the benefit of bfing over ffing really is? I mean, I think we all know that "breast is best" from a medical standpoint, but is the difference really great enough to justify the enormous pressure we put on women nowadays to ebf, to the point where some feel compelled to move heaven and earth to make it work or feel guilty for months or even years after giving up "early"?
Yes - there are lots of studies
1. cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/7/5/365.short Women who breastfed at least 16 months experienced a reduced odds of breast cancer relative to women who never breastfed (odds ratio, 0.73; 95% confidence interval, 0.52-1.01). Risk decreased as the number of children breastfed increased, but the association was attenuated after accounting for lifetime duration of breastfeeding. Breast cancer risk was 30% lower among women ages 20-24 years at first breastfeeding than women who had never breastfed (odds ratio, 0.69; 95% confidence interval, 0.54-0.88), independent of the effect of age at first birth
2.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17450440 Ever breastfeeding was associated with a non-significant reduction in ovarian cancer risk compared with never breastfeeding (RR=0.86, 95% CI 0.70-1.06); the median duration of breastfeeding among women who breastfed was nine months. Breastfeeding of 18 or more months was associated with a significant decrease in ovarian cancer risk compared to never breastfeeding (RR=0.66, 95% CI 0.46-0.96). For each month of breastfeeding the relative risk decreased by 2% (RR=0.98 per month, 95% CI 0.97-1.00).
3. www.ajcn.org/content/70/4/525.full Conclusion: This meta-analysis indicated that, after adjustment for appropriate key cofactors, breast-feeding was associated with significantly higher scores for cognitive development than was formula feeding.
Okay, there are about a billion more but I do not want to look them up.
Given the AAP's statement that lack of BFing is a national health crisis, I think our society's opinions desperately need to shift in favor of BFing. It's tough to support FF without discouraging BFing and vice versa. It's a very fine line, and right now I think we're too much on the FF side. The ideal would be that every new mom feels she should give BFing a shot if she's able to, but not feel guilty if it doesn't work out. I don't know how we can achieve that balance.
And where exactly is this happening? Because most of what I've seen is BFing mommas berating FFing mommas, not the other way around. I have had way more friends/family called out by total strangers for FFing than anyone being called out for BFing.
Given the AAP's statement that lack of BFing is a national health crisis, I think our society's opinions desperately need to shift in favor of BFing. It's tough to support FF without discouraging BFing and vice versa. It's a very fine line, and right now I think we're too much on the FF side. The ideal would be that every new mom feels she should give BFing a shot if she's able to, but not feel guilty if it doesn't work out. I don't know how we can achieve that balance.
And where exactly is this happening? Because most of what I've seen is BFing mommas berating FFing mommas, not the other way around. I have had way more friends/family called out by total strangers for FFing than anyone being called out for BFing.
And I get called trash and low class for BFing. Not to mention being told I am disgusting for NIP. I think of all the things we can argue about we can agree that women get treated badly no matter the choice.
Given the AAP's statement that lack of BFing is a national health crisis, I think our society's opinions desperately need to shift in favor of BFing. It's tough to support FF without discouraging BFing and vice versa. It's a very fine line, and right now I think we're too much on the FF side. The ideal would be that every new mom feels she should give BFing a shot if she's able to, but not feel guilty if it doesn't work out. I don't know how we can achieve that balance.
And where exactly is this happening? Because most of what I've seen is BFing mommas berating FFing mommas, not the other way around. I have had way more friends/family called out by total strangers for FFing than anyone being called out for BFing.
BF moms are often pressured to wean early or to switch to formula. I was sent home with formula samples, I did not request them & did not want them. I'm only 4 mo in & already have been asked how long I plan to BF & when will I be starting formula. I doubt FF moms get asked "Are you still feeding formula?!?!"
And sadly yes there truly are people who don't know that BM has health benefits that formula can not provide.
No I know the studies exist Sorry Kari, I guess I wasn't being clear. My point was that I don't think the benefit of bfing, wIhile clear, is great enough to justify the kind of judginess and guilt thrust upon ffing moms. It doesn't justify this constant mommy war about it. Everyone has to do what is best for them and my choices in how I feed my child don't affect anyone else and vice versa. A happy mom = a happy baby.
Given the AAP's statement that lack of BFing is a national health crisis, I think our society's opinions desperately need to shift in favor of BFing. It's tough to support FF without discouraging BFing and vice versa. It's a very fine line, and right now I think we're too much on the FF side. The ideal would be that every new mom feels she should give BFing a shot if she's able to, but not feel guilty if it doesn't work out. I don't know how we can achieve that balance.
And where exactly is this happening? Because most of what I've seen is BFing mommas berating FFing mommas, not the other way around. I have had way more friends/family called out by total strangers for FFing than anyone being called out for BFing.
I agree, though I am sure the issues of education level, socioeconomic status, etc. that kari mentioned are playing into my perception.
Society does not seem at anti-BF to me. Of the 25 or so moms I know well enough to know the details of how they have fed their kid, only two haven't breastfed--and one of those had extremely premature triplets, and the other tried but never made more than a drop or two of milk. All of the moms in my office who have had kids in recent years have pumped upon returning to work, most until the baby is at least a year. I have been nursing a child (my first, then my second) for all but a few months of the past five years straight, and no one has ever given me crap about it--and I have nursed on planes, in stores, in public parks, and basically all over. My hospital encouraged me to nurse and provided LCs. My pediatrician encouraged me to nurse and has an LC on staff. My OB nursed her own kids for over two years each. So part of me definitely thinks "seriously???" upon hearing people claim that society is not friendly to nursing mothers.
But the moms who feel they did not get adequate support and encouragement to breastfeed are surely not lying. And the statistics indicate that certain segments of the population have very low breastfeeding rates, so surely there is some truth to the notion that we need to do more to encourage and support bfing.
I probably won't be able to BF due to meds I will be placed back on after birth. It upsets me to know that people who are unaware of my medical situation, may judge if they see my child being formula fed.
No I know the studies exist Sorry Kari, I guess I wasn't being clear. My point was that I don't think the benefit of bfing, wIhile clear, is great enough to justify the kind of judginess and guilt thrust upon ffing moms. It doesn't justify this constant mommy war about it. Everyone has to do what is best for them and my choices in how I feed my child don't affect anyone else and vice versa. A happy mom = a happy baby.
Post by Wordtothewise on May 15, 2012 16:57:17 GMT -5
I have so many conflicting thoughts about this.
Yes - we should encourage breastfeeding when possible; but at the same time, we should try to support all new moms, as it is a difficult time. I had a premature baby (10 weeks early) and a pretty traumatic birth. I pumped every 3 hours for 2 weeks. For whatever reason, I never produced anything. Not a single mL. I was so upset. I am educated and certainly know that breastmilk is best, particularly for a very premature baby. And yet there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it. So these discussions always make me feel like crap - they just reinforce the shitty start my child got in life.
I do find the obsession with bf v ff a little strange, though. Parents make suboptimal choices all the time. I can't tell you the number of pregnant women whom I know who drank a little wine while pregnant, took (legal) drugs that have unknown effects on a fetus and/or ate some lunch meat. Yet there isn't nearly the outrage over those actions.
I don't think most people think FF is just as good. Everyone knows breast is best. But formula isn't poison and most FF babies are perfectly healthy. But if you are going to be high and mighty about BF, you better make sure you are not hypocritical and never give your child sugar, anything not organic, etc etc etc. There are a lot of components to having a healthy kid. BF is just one of them.
Exactly. The AAP and every major public health organization will tell you that breastfeeding is optimal and that moms should do it if possible. Most moms know that is true. But we cannot and should not require parents to make optimal parenting decisions all the time. Most parents, myself included, make all kinds of non-optimal choices for their kid every day, whether that means feeding their non-infant children less than optimal nutrition, spending less than optimal time with their kids, using less than optimal discipline methods, etc.
Formula is a good alternative to breastmilk, which is the optimal food for babies. If we are going to judge moms anytime they use a good alternative to an optimal choice, we are going to have to do a lot of judging...
I BF 6 wks w/ DD1 and HATED every minute for the below reasons. FF was the only consideration for DD2
1. Messy w/ boob leaks and milk spills 2. Both kids were extremely jaundice -I learned w/ DD2 FF is best to move bowels faster in order to get rid of excess billirubin and be jaundice free as quickly as possible 3. Difficult w/ working-no lactation lounge-bathroom unsanitary IMO 4. I need H to help out more w/ night time feedings 5. I had to pump at night b/c of engorgement if I wanted H to feed a bottle 6. After 9 mo of a strict diet I no longer wanted to restrict-DD couldn't handle certain foods 7. I wanted to leave home for a 6 hr wedding & not worry about excusing myself to pump w/ the briefcase & cooler I had to bring along 8. I wanted to drink alcohol, lots of alcohol! 9. I can no longer be selfish w/ kids-they will always be first-FF was my choice that allowed me a little selfish freedom 10. Oh and the med thing-I had a small spout w/ PPD 11. Repeat #8
Post by hannamarin on May 15, 2012 20:02:46 GMT -5
kari, I think your idea to donate your milk is honourable, but truly, I would rather give scientifically tested formula than some random person (i would take yours of course) i am sure they would test it for diseases, etc but I wouldnt know that they were eating healthy. Etc
I am an exempt employee and would not be given time to pump at work so I have a decent enough freezer stash hat she still gets 1 bottle a day but when she went on a breast feeding strike at 13 weeks while I was on maternity leave, I decided that was a good time to stop. I cried for a week. The laws are still not strong enough. I could see how other women might not even try if they're exempted.
Post by curbsideprophet on May 15, 2012 21:09:11 GMT -5
froggy I understand what you are saying. I hope there is a cultural shift to be more supportive of breastfeeding and more support for working mothers. I agree that it is a fine line between being supportive and encouraging and also accepting of doing what works for you.
There are so many benefits, I would absolutely encourage anyone to at least try breastfeeding.
Before I was unable to BF I also made equally obnoxious judgemental statements like the basis of this post. I learned the hard way how unproductive that BS is.
Before I was unable to BF I also made equally obnoxious judgemental statements like the basis of this post. I learned the hard way how unproductive that BS is.
kari, I think your idea to donate your milk is honourable, but truly, I would rather give scientifically tested formula than some random person (i would take yours of course) i am sure they would test it for diseases, etc but I wouldnt know that they were eating healthy. Etc
Umm, you know i love you hanna. But what does it matter if they are eating healthy? When I eat a cheeseburger my baby doesn't get the a mouth full of saturated fat when he eats. Yes, some flavors of what you eat get into the milk but it is not like milk is regurgitated food or anything. In fact, one of the amazing things about BM is that it meets your babies nutritional needs when you don't eat healthy.
I mean I 100% understand concerns, but worrying about the mom eating healthy shouldn't be one of them.
Post by vanillacourage on May 16, 2012 5:48:55 GMT -5
I find it interesting that whenever we have these posts (and we have them a lot) the people who don't BF always post a list of reasons why BFing didn't work out for them, as if they feel the need to justify FFing their baby to a bunch of Internet strangers. It should be ok to basically say "it wasn't the right choice for my family" and have that be enough - for you and for us. That anyone feels the need to provide proof to a chat room proves that BFing judginess is still rampant in the mommy wars.
I stand my opinion that, as a BFing mom, it's tough to stay motivated when the prevailing attitude in this country is, "Hey, do whatever works for you... as long as your baby is fed."
First, there is NOTHING wrong w/ the "prevailing" attitude being "do whatever works for you" - because in the end all that DOES matter is that your baby is fed.
BUT - you seem to be tying that statement to "support of FF", which isn't how I see it at all. I don't say the above to say "SWITCH TO FORMULA!".
Also, I think this has to do w/ where we live because where you see this as supporting FF, I don't - where I live, BFing is the prevailing "what's best and if you don't do it- you're going to feel guilty" attitude.
Like I Heart- I had problems too and I had to EP for 2 months. GOD did it suck, and we actually had to start supplementing. But I continued EPing, eventually got DS to latch, and continued BFing for 4 more months. When I did quit, even though I was very much ready, I still felt a TON of guilt because everything around me is "BF! BF! BF!!!!!!!".
To me, that statement is simply about choice - do what works for YOU and YOUR family.. Don't worry about anyone else. And if that means BF, then BF. If that means you can't/ want to stop and go to FF, then do so. You're chid will be fine. To say that doesn't mean a person "supports" FF - it simply means that person supports choice and doing what works for you.
I have a friend, M, who had very much the exact opposite experience as you. Her son went on strike. She wasn't ready. She wanted to keep BFing him. She talked to a mutual friend of ours who is doing extended BFing and is a huge supporter of it. This friend went on and on about everything M could do/ should do to try and keep BFing to the point that M just felt beaten down and HORRIBLE because nothing was working.
What M really needed to hear was "It's o.k - if you try all this and it doesn't work, it's o.k." She never heard that and she dealt w/ horrible guilt because of it. She WAS getting a ton of "BF Support", and it ended up just inducing a ton of guilt.
Post by hopeful2012 on May 16, 2012 8:36:07 GMT -5
I don't judge. I breastfeed until a couple weeks before I had to return from maternity leave (I didn't want to have all the change at one time), and that was about 3.5 months. Even when I did breastfeed there were times when we would supplement with formula (occassional low supply, wanting to get some extra sleep and have DH take over a night but not having a stash already pumped). I honestly hated pumping since it was so much more work, which is why i didn't want to continue it after I went back to work.
I did try to BF my first but she absolutely never latched properly, not even once...I did every fucking thing under the sun & was still completely unsuccessful. I fell into deep post partum depression out of guilt. I never could even get more than about 1oz in a session when I pumped. I don't judge people ever because I don't know their deal. I still want to throat punch the bitch in Target that felt the need to "educate" me on BFing. It WASN'T me...my DD2 & DD3 nursed with no issues. I swear the day DD2 was born & latched right on was one of the greatest reliefs of guilt I ever had....my boobs in fact did work...sometimes babies have issues. I thank God that formula is available & accessible to woman who want or need it.
Ugh. This type of post bothers me A LOT. I just hate how we are all put in this rat race against each other and something like BFing which everyone can outwardly SEE gets all this attention whereas plenty of other factors go unnoticed (reading to your baby, quality time, etc.). And then we wonder why strangers start giving us advice in the grocery store and why so many mothers feel so alone.
Most of us do the best we can. If a mom is educated about the benefits of BFing and chooses not to for whatever reason, I don't care.
I agree! I felt so bad about myself for the longest time because both of my kids needed to be supplemented. I had very little help when I had DS and did everything I could to avoid formula. I had to do it for his health and was never able to make enough to support his needs. With DD the same thing happened but she barely needed formula at first, I tried every herbal product and lactation aid known to man. I am also unable to pump more than 3oz of milk even when engorged. Do not make this about who is a better mom. We all make choices and have different reasons for them!!