Kids and Cars Petition

[Deleted]

“Kids and Cars” has started a petition drive asking the President to authorize the Department of Transportation to research and develop technology for vehicles that would remind parents to not leave their kids in unattended vehicles.  They need 100,000 signatures by August 14th.

petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/prevent-child-heat-stroke-deaths-vehicles/ymQR1Ty0

[ijack]

The problem is that nothing is fail safe and no company will ever take on the liability of promising that it will keep kids safe.

[Deleted]

Jul 28, 2014 10:31:48 GMT -5 ijack said:

The problem is that nothing is fail safe and no company will ever take on the liability of promising that it will keep kids safe.

I get that.  I just want something to make this better

[Poppy]

Jul 28, 2014 11:11:25 GMT -5 tillie said:

Yeah,I also don't think the President, time, or $ should really be invested in something that will not be fail safe.

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

[ijack]

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:11:25 GMT -5 tillie said:

Yeah,I also don't think the President, time, or $ should really be invested in something that will not be fail safe.

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

I'm pretty sure that car seat manufacturers don't claim that the child will survive any accident if they're in a car seat. They'll be safer, yes, but they don't guarantee life.
These products are a lawsuit waiting to happen - all it has to do is fail once and even if the parent remembers they could still sue for "what ifs."
I don't disagree that these deaths are tragic, but there isn't a device out there that is going to stop them.

[cinnamoncox]

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:11:25 GMT -5 tillie said:

Yeah,I also don't think the President, time, or $ should really be invested in something that will not be fail safe.

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

But don't car seat companies sometimes get sued? I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet.

I know they have invented things (nasa invented one actually) designed to *help* prevent these incidents, but no one wants the liability. It's very tricky.

I think that Wapo article should be required reading, for real. When ever anyone tries talking to me about how could anyone leave their kid they must be sterilized etc, if they haven't read that article I literally won't discuss it with them.
Before I read it I would've been the first to say how could anyone forget their child.

I have had to shut down convos with h because he hasn't read it but he brushes t off when I mention it. Like ya ya ya please how can someone forget their kid, and I've said you are ignorant of the facts and we will discuss this when you have read the article. The brain research and science is fact, and it's heartbreaking to read and it haunts me and always will, but it absolutely must be read. Because the natural reaction is to say this couldn't happen to me.

I wouldn't buy any device, I think the tips of leaving diaper bag in view, tying ribbons on gear shift , having daycare call if a child is more than X amount of time late, parents checking in with each other, etc.
Those will go further IMO.

A two minute call to parents from the daycare if child isn't dropped off without parent calling first seems like a very very simple solution. I can't imagine that many kids just aren't dropped off without the parents calling to say they aren't coming, so I don't think itll be a huge time strain on the day cares.

And I think if daycares were mandated to do this, 99% of these cases wouldn't have happened.
The most recent one the foster dad left her in the car in their own driveway at the end of the day care day, so that wouldn't have prevented this one, but the vast vast majority could be avoided with a one minute call from the daycare.
Johnny isn't here , is he coming today?
No he's sick thanks for checking though.
Or
Omg what ? Let me call spouse (or whomever drops off) to see what's wrong!
Child saved (theoretically).

Maybe I'm naive though.

[arch01]

Jul 28, 2014 11:54:39 GMT -5 cinnamoncox said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

But don't car seat companies sometimes get sued? I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet.

I know they have invented things (nasa invented one actually) designed to *help* prevent these incidents, but no one wants the liability. It's very tricky.

I think that Wapo article should be required reading, for real. When ever anyone tries talking to me about how could anyone leave their kid they must be sterilized etc, if they haven't read that article I literally won't discuss it with them.
Before I read it I would've been the first to say how could anyone forget their child.

I have had to shut down convos with h because he hasn't read it but he brushes t off when I mention it. Like ya ya ya please how can someone forget their kid, and I've said you are ignorant of the facts and we will discuss this when you have read the article. The brain research and science is fact, and it's heartbreaking to read and it haunts me and always will, but it absolutely must be read. Because the natural reaction is to say this couldn't happen to me.

I wouldn't buy any device, I think the tips of leaving diaper bag in view, tying ribbons on gear shift , having daycare call if a child is more than X amount of time late, parents checking in with each other, etc.
Those will go further IMO.

A two minute call to parents from the daycare if child isn't dropped off without parent calling first seems like a very very simple solution. I can't imagine that many kids just aren't dropped off without the parents calling to say they aren't coming, so I don't think itll be a huge time strain on the day cares.

And I think if daycares were mandated to do this, 99% of these cases wouldn't have happened.
The most recent one the foster dad left her in the car in their own driveway at the end of the day care day, so that wouldn't have prevented this one, but the vast vast majority could be avoided with a one minute call from the daycare.
Johnny isn't here , is he coming today?
No he's sick thanks for checking though.
Or
Omg what ? Let me call spouse (or whomever drops off) to see what's wrong!
Child saved (theoretically).

Maybe I'm naive though.

In all seriousness-how many of these cases are associated with a missed daycare dropoff? (Have there been any statistics released on this??) I'm curious to see whether it's really the vast majority we all seem to think it is or if it's more widespread.

[rubytue]

This doesn't need a Whitehouse.gov petition, anyone could request a regulation through the standard rulemaking petition process (which actually does not require multiple signatures). There is technology that has been developed to do this, so one could submit a rulemaking petition to NHTSA asking for it. I've actually been surprised that no one has yet. I guess the White House.gpv petition just helps raise awareness. Or maybe they have and NHTSA never docketed it.

But, to ijack's point, I think the word that is tripping her up is "prevent." Truthfully, you can only attempt to "reduce," either through regulation or awareness. There will always be willful non-compliance, for one. For example, you could require a warning sound (think seat belt alert beep). The problem is that something like this requires the human, often the least reliable part of the system. Short of an ejection seat when the car gets over 100, it's got to be the person that takes the kid out. So, mostly likely, the best you can do is alert the person.

[Poppy]

Jul 28, 2014 11:54:39 GMT -5 cinnamoncox said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

But don't car seat companies sometimes get sued? I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet.

I know they have invented things (nasa invented one actually) designed to *help* prevent these incidents, but no one wants the liability. It's very tricky.

I think that Wapo article should be required reading, for real. When ever anyone tries talking to me about how could anyone leave their kid they must be sterilized etc, if they haven't read that article I literally won't discuss it with them.
Before I read it I would've been the first to say how could anyone forget their child.

I have had to shut down convos with h because he hasn't read it but he brushes t off when I mention it. Like ya ya ya please how can someone forget their kid, and I've said you are ignorant of the facts and we will discuss this when you have read the article. The brain research and science is fact, and it's heartbreaking to read and it haunts me and always will, but it absolutely must be read. Because the natural reaction is to say this couldn't happen to me.

I wouldn't buy any device, I think the tips of leaving diaper bag in view, tying ribbons on gear shift , having daycare call if a child is more than X amount of time late, parents checking in with each other, etc.
Those will go further IMO.

A two minute call to parents from the daycare if child isn't dropped off without parent calling first seems like a very very simple solution. I can't imagine that many kids just aren't dropped off without the parents calling to say they aren't coming, so I don't think itll be a huge time strain on the day cares.

And I think if daycares were mandated to do this, 99% of these cases wouldn't have happened.
The most recent one the foster dad left her in the car in their own driveway at the end of the day care day, so that wouldn't have prevented this one, but the vast vast majority could be avoided with a one minute call from the daycare.
Johnny isn't here , is he coming today?
No he's sick thanks for checking though.
Or
Omg what ? Let me call spouse (or whomever drops off) to see what's wrong!
Child saved (theoretically).

Maybe I'm naive though.

I feel like you're misunderstanding my point. I totally agree with a lot of what you've said in terms of awareness and additional processes people should implement. However, although I plan to do many of those myself, I absolutely researched to try to find a good car seat monitor. The only reason I didn't buy one is that I didn't find one that appears to work at all. One of the demands of the petition is that we should invest in R&D which will presumably lead to better solutions. Of course it won't be 100%. But every improvement is a step in the right direction. Just not doing it is like saying, "well, a seat belt won't prevent 100% of car accident injuries, so why bother, the car companies will never take on the liability of producing a seat belt."

In terms of whether a company will take on the liability risk - well yeah I know that it's a hurdle. But:
1) Many other products exist without a 100% guarantee and are routinely sold. I still think carseats are a valid example. Their sole purpose is to reduce the risk from driving your kid around.
2) There is precedent for the government to require some additional safety features as PART OF a carseat for example. Just like the new regulations that cars must come with back-up cameras (or seat belts). They don't have to claim that you can't back into something.
3) This is a product that actually already exists! So claiming that "no one" will do it is kind of silly at this point...

[lemon]

Jul 28, 2014 11:49:13 GMT -5 ijack said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

I'm pretty sure that car seat manufacturers don't claim that the child will survive any accident if they're in a car seat. They'll be safer, yes, but they don't guarantee life.
These products are a lawsuit waiting to happen - all it has to do is fail once and even if the parent remembers they could still sue for "what ifs."
I don't disagree that these deaths are tragic, but there isn't a device out there that is going to stop them.

But if a company can create something, why can't they offer the same claims that car seat manufacturers do? We will make it safer for your child, but not guarantee your child will live.

I mean, we have sensors in our cars these days that automatically turn off our front passenger airbags if the seat senses something "too light" in the seat. It keeps our kids safer. Same concept if they came up with a sensor for a car seat.

[rubytue]

By the way, there is a second one on the site currently. IMHO, this one is more likely to be actionable. petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/mandate-technology-prevent-death-children-hyperthermia/37QdLc02

Athough, I could spent plenty of time dissecting that one, too, mostly on jurisdictional issues in their rationale.

[cinnamoncox]

@uncharch07
I don't have a statistic but from memory it seems to be always a case of missed day care drop off on account of it being a different parent than usually does drop off, or frazzled parent with a million things going on and they miss drop off.

But I would have to look for an actual #, I'm basing it on memory from the article and the various cases I've read.

Poppy
I'm sorry, I don't want to quote bc they're both long posts, but I don't know if I'm missing your point or not, I may very well be.
I don't dispute that nothing is 100% and to not make a device because it could fail is the norm, I just think when it comes to child safety/life or death items, it's a harder sell.

I personally wouldn't buy something to remind me when there are other ways to reduce this that don't cost additional money and take all of literally a minute.

I think a call from daycare if a child is late by 30 min without a parent already calling, and employing tactics like strategic diaper bag placement are simpler and more organic, if that makes sense.
I didn't mean to discount your point, because I indeed may have missed it.

[drloretta]

Jul 28, 2014 10:31:48 GMT -5 ijack said:

The problem is that nothing is fail safe and no company will ever take on the liability of promising that it will keep kids safe.

The other problem is that marketing efforts have failed because a lot of parents don't think they need it. "I would never forget my child" is their reasoning.

[sillygoosegirl]

I'd be interested to know how many children die each year from this, compared with fatalities from other kinds of accidents (automotive or otherwise). While any death is tragic, I'm not convinced that we don't have far more effective things to put our research dollars toward.

[MixedBerryJam]

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:11:25 GMT -5 tillie said:

Yeah,I also don't think the President, time, or $ should really be invested in something that will not be fail safe.

This doesn't make sense to me. Lots of projects are done that are not "fail safe". You can't eliminate 100% of risk in life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make things safER.

ijack - companies make car seats and you could make the same claim about those.

Or seat belts. Cars didn't always have seat belts, or backup lights, or turn signals, or ...

[robot]

Jul 28, 2014 11:54:39 GMT -5 cinnamoncox said:

Jul 28, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 Poppy said:

I wouldn't buy any device, I think the tips of leaving diaper bag in view, tying ribbons on gear shift , having daycare call if a child is more than X amount of time late, parents checking in with each other, etc.
Those will go further IMO.

A two minute call to parents from the daycare if child isn't dropped off without parent calling first seems like a very very simple solution. I can't imagine that many kids just aren't dropped off without the parents calling to say they aren't coming, so I don't think itll be a huge time strain on the day cares.

And I think if daycares were mandated to do this, 99% of these cases wouldn't have happened.
The most recent one the foster dad left her in the car in their own driveway at the end of the day care day, so that wouldn't have prevented this one, but the vast vast majority could be avoided with a one minute call from the daycare.
Johnny isn't here , is he coming today?
No he's sick thanks for checking though.
Or
Omg what ? Let me call spouse (or whomever drops off) to see what's wrong!
Child saved (theoretically).

Maybe I'm naive though.

I see the bolded mentioned quite often as a possible solution, but it seems to me that it's not logistically simple in practice.  I'm just thinking about my daycare - it's a center with about 40 kids.  There is no administrative assistant or anything, just the proper ratio of teachers.  Those 40 kids are dropped off on on a staggered schedule, with most arriving between 7 am and 9:30 am. That's where it gets tricky - the staff would need to have a mental, rolling tally of who has not been dropped off within 30 minute of their individual scheduled time. You'd have to have a spreadsheet or something of each kid, their normal drop-off time, and the "alarm" time of post-30 minutes.  And if you don't catch it within a half hour or so, well, it may not be fast enough.  I'm not sure that is trivial...especially while simultaneously also caring for the kids who are there.  Although I admit maybe if I thought about it more, I could figure out something workable. 

[dr.girlfriend]

My kid is five and a half and I still put my purse on the floor by his feet after strapping him into the carseat every single time, and if DH does the rare daycare dropoff I have him text me to confirm dropoff. It really can happen to anyone.