responding to those who think the link is stupid or silly - regardless of the semantic arguments of what middle class really means - I do think it's interesting to think about whether you fall into the middle quintile of your geographic area and then find out if you're right. the link is poorly worded, but not pointless.
My county is actually richer than I realized. I feel like we do ok - but we're just average 'round here. Most of our friends are about in the same income bracket as we are. And the county where I grew up is poorer than I would have guessed, but compared to my high school friends I'm rolling in it so that makes sense. This stuff is interesting to think about. At least to me? Helps adjust my perception of our own situation.
I imagine it could be eye opening to many who feel like there's never enough money to realize that they have more than xx% of the people in their local area.
Also there needs to be another word for the Obama rich besides upper class since that one is so loaded with connotations of oil money and private jets.
Well off, well-to-do, thriving, fortunate, moneyed, flourishing, affluent, wealthy, country-club-set, upper crust? Any of those work better?
I think there is just not an easy way to say someone is rich, but not Oprah or Steve Jobs rich.
But see this is why everyone is qualifying themselves as middle. Based on the numbers for my county I would say the CNN definition is working poor. One to two modest incomes that can afford a modest mortgage and maybe a modest car payment. But would not afford much for savings, entertainment, travel.
Above working poor would be middle which would allow the house, car, and modest savings, entertainment, and travel.
After that though and I think a defined definition of classes is fuzzy.
ESF was being funny.
Travel and entertainment put you into middle class? That's crazy. While I was the poorest I've ever been, I went to the most countries of my life and paid more for entertainment than I did for housing. Plus working poor can have many definitions also, but those may include travel and entertainment, just at a very different level than someone who is wealthy and can plan a cross-country Disney trip. I guess I just look at income and assets (like owning vs leasing) and ability to pay medical bills and such as a better barometer for a household's status than trips.
I know ESF was being cheeky. But my point still stands. And as I stated I included owning a home (not renting or leasing). But of course I meant that for my area. We have very reasonable prices for real estate. And I'm not so sure how the ability to pay for medical bills can qualify one as middle class more than the ability to pay for savings, entertainment, and travel. Because as someone who grew up in a working poor home we really didn't enjoy much of the above. It was a rare treat to go out to eat. I almost never went to the movies. And I can't name a single vacation we took. We simply could not afford it. But my parents owned their home and cars.
Apparently we are not. I feel like we are, but I suppose our massive debt is working against us.
this. Apparently we are the 1% in our area (not really 1% but our combined income is almost twice the upper end number). It sure as hell don't feel like it.
responding to those who think the link is stupid or silly - regardless of the semantic arguments of what middle class really means - I do think it's interesting to think about whether you fall into the middle quintile of your geographic area and then find out if you're right. the link is poorly worded, but not pointless.
My county is actually richer than I realized. I feel like we do ok - but we're just average 'round here. Most of our friends are about in the same income bracket as we are. And the county where I grew up is poorer than I would have guessed, but compared to my high school friends I'm rolling in it so that makes sense. This stuff is interesting to think about. At least to me? Helps adjust my perception of our own situation.
I imagine it could be eye opening to many who feel like there's never enough money to realize that they have more than xx% of the people in their local area.
Also there needs to be another word for the Obama rich besides upper class since that one is so loaded with connotations of oil money and private jets.
You have a good point, and I'm one who doesn't like the structure.
DH thinks we are middle class. He worries about money and always feels poor. But I think a lot of that is because many people around us are über-rich. He has clients with private jets, who will invest $500k into ONE stock on a sunny Friday because they feel like it. We are rich but not compared to many people around us.
MH is similar. And it's because he's from here - where the median HHI is apparently above three figures. Whereas I'm from a county where the middle quintile tops out in the 50's. So when I look at our income and feel like I have ALL THE MONIES!!!! and he thinks, "well, that'll do I guess..." this shouldn't come as a shock.
Post by Velar Fricative on Sept 16, 2014 7:43:26 GMT -5
It kills me when people talk about daycare expenses too. Do middle class peasants not have children? Well, they do, and they have tougher choices to make re: affordable childcare, becoming a SAHP, etc.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Sept 16, 2014 7:45:02 GMT -5
The number for my county was way less than I anticipated. It makes sense in hindsight because its a really big county with a lit of financial diversity.
ETA: I was being TIC with my comment about student loans bringing us down. I know we do alright. But it is really hard to see that when we have 2 lawyers worth of student loan payments each month.
So, am I to presume that Upper Class is a dirty word since apparently nobody wants that title?
Apparently so. God forbid someone is actually wealthy. Of course that will bring on the flaming.
You do realize a lot of this is TIC correct? I mean in the span of two months I met up with ttt Rio and Paris , no on is actually worried about being pereived as something other than middle class.
Which reminds me ttt if you ever want to meet up in Istanbul we will be on our 4th continent!!
You have a good point, and I'm one who doesn't like the structure.
DH thinks we are middle class. He worries about money and always feels poor. But I think a lot of that is because many people around us are über-rich. He has clients with private jets, who will invest $500k into ONE stock on a sunny Friday because they feel like it. We are rich but not compared to many people around us.
MH is similar. And it's because he's from here - where the median HHI is apparently above three figures. Whereas I'm from a county where the middle quintile tops out in the 50's. So when I look at our income and feel like I have ALL THE MONIES!!!! and he thinks, "well, that'll do I guess..." this shouldn't come as a shock.
Similar situation here. MH grew up in an area where people had a lot of money, including his own parents. The norm was being very financially comfortable. In the past, he's been convinced we're poor, which is so utterly ridiculous based on so many factors. He's more like "I guess we're doing okay..." now. Okay is apparently defined as being above target for retirement savings, being able to save for college, being able to save, in general, and have disposable income, among other things, that make me feel like we're doing really well. I grew up much differently, even though we were probably pretty middle class. I just wasn't surrounded by people who were financially well off, and I knew my parents struggled at times to pay for certain things and save. Saving for retirement and college just wasn't the same situation MH grew up with. Really, saving in general.
You do realize a lot of this is TIC correct? I mean in the span of two months I met up with ttt Rio and Paris , no on is actually worried about being pereived as something other than middle class.
Which reminds me ttt if you ever want to meet up in Istanbul we will be on our 4th continent!!
Here, yes, ML, not so much.
No I started out as a ML reg and have to disagree. Being Upper Middle or above alone won't get you flamed alone, it's all how it's presented.
Hmmm. I need more information. Is the number gross income or net? Does it take in to account consumer debt?
If it's gross income, then we fall outside the upper end of the middle class range for our county by 30%. If it's net income, then we fall outside the upper end of the middle class range for our county by about 6%. If it's net income minus consumer debt, then we're in the middle class range.
Either way, it doesn't really matter because every month I still look at our budget and think "Where the hell does our money go?!" I need a better system, I think.
I think a big part of the issue is that at some point in recent history people started equating middle class with middle income. Others can't divorce the term from its original social and cultural meaning. People talk past each other about two different things. Eye rolls and indignation ensue.
So, am I to presume that Upper Class is a dirty word since apparently nobody wants that title?
If there is anyone out there who would like to shed their upper classness, I would be happy to switch and shoulder that burden for them. It would be like a huge change but I'm totally willing to do it. You know, for their mental health of course.
I will throw this out there: my father owns industrial plants. When we were learning about Marx and Engels, the French Revolution, and class structure within its historical context in school my family fit the historical definition of middle class to a T: non-titled owners of the means of production. My mind will never be able to remove the historical context or cultural/social implications from the class issue, possibly because it was solidified in middle school.
I would like to point out that when the middle class emerged, it, together with the upper class comprised a single percentage point of the population.
And historically, the middle class didn't have that great of connotations associated with it either. The commies were just as pissed at them as the elite. Have you read Germinal? The daughter of the owner of the mine (middle class) sleeps twelve hours straight and the family laughs about it while a girl of a similar age has been already working down in the father's mine for hours without food.
I will throw this out there: my father owns industrial plants. When we were learning about Marx and Engels, the French Revolution, and class structure within its historical context in school my family fit the historical definition of middle class to a T: non-titled owners of the means of production. My mind will never be able to remove the historical context or cultural/social implications from the class issue, possibly because it was solidified in middle school.
I would like to point out that when the middle class emerged, it, together with the upper class comprised a single percentage point of the population.
And historically, the middle class didn't have that great of connotations associated with it either. The commies were just as pissed at them as the elite. Have you read Germinal? The daughter of the owner of the mine (middle class) sleeps twelve hours straight and the family laughs about it while a girl of a similar age has been already working down in the father's mine for hours without food.
But now I'm rambling...
::sigh:: See now? You are going to make me listen to History podcasts all day. ::strolls to CSPAN Lectures in History::
Post by penguingrrl on Sept 16, 2014 8:32:34 GMT -5
This is reminding me of an old poster on my local board who used to call herself "HENRY" for High Earner Not Rich Yet. No honey, you are rich. Just because you have to dip into your wealth for your mortgage payment while cash flowing the expensive renovation on your kitchen right after a nice vacation doesn't mean you aren't rich.
Between H moving up in his career and moving from a HCOL area to a MCOL area we skirted right through "middle" income. Up until June we were significantly below what that calculator defines as middle class for our old locale and his new job puts us a slight hair (under $2K) over middle for our new area. We have debt, but instead of adding to it monthly we're lowering it monthly, which IMO makes us well off. We're also able to save for retirement, which is another indicator of wealth IMO.
But see this is why everyone is qualifying themselves as middle. Based on the numbers for my county I would say the CNN definition is working poor. One to two modest incomes that can afford a modest mortgage and maybe a modest car payment. But would not afford much for savings, entertainment, travel.
Above working poor would be middle which would allow the house, car, and modest savings, entertainment, and travel.
After that though and I think a defined definition of classes is fuzzy.
ESF was being funny.
Travel and entertainment put you into middle class? That's crazy. While I was the poorest I've ever been, I went to the most countries of my life and paid more for entertainment than I did for housing. Plus working poor can have many definitions also, but those may include travel and entertainment, just at a very different level than someone who is wealthy and can plan a cross-country Disney trip. I guess I just look at income and assets (like owning vs leasing) and ability to pay medical bills and such as a better barometer for a household's status than trips.
But a lot of people who would qualify as middle class (40th to 60th percentile) in this graph can't afford to buy housing or pay medical debt in their area.
I heard a stat a few years ago that in order to afford the AVERAGE house for sale in Los Angeles, you had to make SIX TIMES the AVERAGE income. So who the hell is buying all the real estate?! As of last year, the market was back up to people getting multiple cash offers the day after listing. Which goes to show the INSANE income disparity, especially in areas perceived to be wealthy. Don't forget that Manhattan has a sizeable population living in poverty, right? So saying someone "can't afford" to live someone isn't realistic. People live in poverty everywhere. They just don't live like those who are above the middle class.
And since medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US, there are a LOT of people who can't afford medical bills.
(Although someone in the MM thread did mention that people who live in abject poverty, people who are retired and probably own a home outright, and people who are young/just out of college and not making much are probably skewing the numbers down quite a bit - working families might average $10k+ more than what the actual "middle class" numbers show.)
We do have a lot of expenses, but I do not consider myself middle class. I feel that the fact that we can afford those expenses with a fair amount of discretionary money left over just proves to me that we are not middle class.
Are we upper class? I dunno. and I certainly do not have diamond shoes and hell, we aren't even "obama rich" and probably half the people on this board make a lot more than we do. H thinks we are middle class because we do not have unlimited discretionary income. But that's not what makes someone middle class vs. not.
I hate when people complain about having no money due to their choices. That does not make you "middle class." It may mean you have to re-evaluate your spending habits/choices, but it does not mean you are middle class. If you are paying for a house in a ritzy area of town and paying for the most expensive daycare in town and so on, those are all choices you have made.
I like this post because, well, I like it AND BECAUSE YOU'RE BACK!!!!
I think a big part of the issue is that at some point in recent history people started equating middle class with middle income. Others can't divorce the term from its original social and cultural meaning. People talk past each other about two different things. Eye rolls and indignation ensue.
We are not middle income. We are middle class.
I remember on the old, old site when I was still wedding planning, people would wonder at how celebs and rich people could spend $1 million on a wedding. I'm like, "well, not the way we're planning weddings, that's for sure." You have to really, really think outside the box on that one.
Travel and entertainment put you into middle class? That's crazy. While I was the poorest I've ever been, I went to the most countries of my life and paid more for entertainment than I did for housing. Plus working poor can have many definitions also, but those may include travel and entertainment, just at a very different level than someone who is wealthy and can plan a cross-country Disney trip. I guess I just look at income and assets (like owning vs leasing) and ability to pay medical bills and such as a better barometer for a household's status than trips.
But a lot of people who would qualify as middle class (40th to 60th percentile) in this graph can't afford to buy housing or pay medical debt in their area.
I heard a stat a few years ago that in order to afford the AVERAGE house for sale in Los Angeles, you had to make SIX TIMES the AVERAGE income. So who the hell is buying all the real estate?! As of last year, the market was back up to people getting multiple cash offers the day after listing. Which goes to show the INSANE income disparity, especially in areas perceived to be wealthy. Don't forget that Manhattan has a sizeable population living in poverty, right? So saying someone "can't afford" to live someone isn't realistic. People live in poverty everywhere. They just don't live like those who are above the middle class.
And since medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US, there are a LOT of people who can't afford medical bills.
(Although someone in the MM thread did mention that people who live in abject poverty, people who are retired and probably own a home outright, and people who are young/just out of college and not making much are probably skewing the numbers down quite a bit - working families might average $10k+ more than what the actual "middle class" numbers show.)
I was thinking about that. The top number in our old county was $103k, but the apartment sized two bed one bath we moved out of is currently listed at $365K, meaning a middle income family in the area couldn't buy that. I know retires with paid off homes and young adults living home after college with a reasonable income skew the numbers somewhat but I definitely feel like those prices are unsustainable. But somehow very expensive houses ($600k+) are still selling after only days on the market. Who is buying them???
But a lot of people who would qualify as middle class (40th to 60th percentile) in this graph can't afford to buy housing or pay medical debt in their area.
I heard a stat a few years ago that in order to afford the AVERAGE house for sale in Los Angeles, you had to make SIX TIMES the AVERAGE income. So who the hell is buying all the real estate?! As of last year, the market was back up to people getting multiple cash offers the day after listing. Which goes to show the INSANE income disparity, especially in areas perceived to be wealthy. Don't forget that Manhattan has a sizeable population living in poverty, right? So saying someone "can't afford" to live someone isn't realistic. People live in poverty everywhere. They just don't live like those who are above the middle class.
And since medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US, there are a LOT of people who can't afford medical bills.
(Although someone in the MM thread did mention that people who live in abject poverty, people who are retired and probably own a home outright, and people who are young/just out of college and not making much are probably skewing the numbers down quite a bit - working families might average $10k+ more than what the actual "middle class" numbers show.)
I was thinking about that. The top number in our old county was $103k, but the apartment sized two bed one bath we moved out of is currently listed at $365K, meaning a middle income family in the area couldn't buy that. I know retires with paid off homes and young adults living home after college with a reasonable income skew the numbers somewhat but I definitely feel like those prices are unsustainable. But somehow very expensive houses ($600k+) are still selling after only days on the market. Who is buying them???
Older people, people with little to no debt/major expenses, people selling their homes and applying their profit to bigger/more expensive homes...