Post by msmerymac on Sept 16, 2014 11:43:59 GMT -5
If the "some people" you all are referring to is me, my point is this: there is something wrong with a country in which 90% of people, whether they make $30k or $200k, struggle to get ahead. Talk about people in the top 20% or whatever making "poor life decisions" if they are living paycheck to paycheck (like buying too much house, especially before the crash, or racking up consumer debt while in college, or taking out $150k in student loans), but in general the percentage and sheer amount of raw dollars than Americans have to pay for things like health care, child care and education - you know, things that other governments subsidize - is NOT sustainable. People who make 6 figures worry whether or not they can help their children go to college, which is kind of key in making sure that their own children continue to live life at the same income level/class that they grew up in. It's shocking how many children are predicted to do less well than their parents in the future because of this.
THAT'S what I mean when I say that we're in this together. Why I support policies that would slow the increase in education costs (so... not our current system of federally backed student loans), or create a single-payer health care system. Yes, I can imagine that paying anything towards college is only a blip in the dreams of families with a HHI of $50k/year, which places them as "solidly middle class" in most parts of the country. I can imagine that because *I*, a person with a HHI higher than middle class in my not-poor county, has had to struggle with tough decisions in order to make that a possible reality. So I can fucking imagine.
Actually if you factor in all of Brittney Spears' expenses like maintaining staff, homes, and managers/handlers, also PR, lawyers, nannies, cars, vacations, weaves, clothes, purses, shoes, and pool boys, etc, the government should be probably putting her on WIC.
Please do not talk to me about how people with $200k/yr "struggle" to get ahead because I will put someone's gotdamn eye out.
That's the problem I think with the American dream and the idea that you constantly have to do better. Sometimes you've done well enough, okay? And that's why some people with a rather nice income stream are over there talking 'bout how they are merely middle class because they have to space out their vacations instead of following the award party circuit and buying $13k tea cup Pomeranians.
Actually if you factor in all of Brittney Spears' expenses like maintaining staff, homes, and managers/handlers, also PR, lawyers, nannies, cars, vacations, weaves, clothes, purses, shoes, and pool boys, etc, the government should be probably putting her on WIC.
You mean Brit Brit's daddy's expenses. How much did he shell out to get that Lucado dude to date her?
Also, she isn't spending a ton on weaves. That's how you know she's low class. LOLOL
I think the reason why people don't want to be labeled as "upper income" or "upper class" is because we are all in a competition for resources. People at the top feel that they will either not get their "fair share of resources" or will have to unfairly subsidize other people's access to resources if they are labeled as such.
I like how the NYT defines social class as an intersection between occupation, education, income, and wealth. A professor for instance likely doesn't make a ton of money (especially a humanities prof) but they are often considered upper class by virtue of their advanced education and the high respect accorded to their profession. I would add background to the list but I realize that is *very* hard to articulate and input into this type of calculator. Anyway here it is:
So if you graduated in the top 10% of your class, do you consider yourself a middling academic achiever because you weren't in the top 1-2%?Â
I actually think this is a great analogy.
And it shows how your perspective is influenced by those around you.
I graduated fairly high up in HS class and got good SAT scores. But I was in classes with the valedictorian and the salutatorian. My best friend graduated in the top 1%. One of my classmates got a 1600 on her SATs the first time she took them.
I spent half of high school thinking I was SO DUMB. I wasn't. I was smart, but I was surrounded by REALLY REALLY smart people.
Actually if you factor in all of Brittney Spears' expenses like maintaining staff, homes, and managers/handlers, also PR, lawyers, nannies, cars, vacations, weaves, clothes, purses, shoes, and pool boys, etc, the government should be probably putting her on WIC.
@majorwife the questions in the wealthy section are proving my point. We might have a high income relatively but I wouldn't check anything off on that list in section three.
they need, as a whole, to read A Framework for Understanding Poverty. i know it talks about the poors but it also talks about the characteristics of each class - poor, middle and upper. these are characteristics that dont change with your bank account, because if you were raised GENERATIONALLY upper class, your characteristics stay the same even if you are a part time starbucks barista while you earn your art history degree on your daddy's dime. but that part time barista has a fucking middle class income.
for a math board, i cant understand why they can grasp that $xxx = upper class. it is a strictly numbers game.
Wait, but you just said that someone who comes from an upper class background and earns a barista income isn't in the same boat as someone who doesn't (which I would agree with*).
Also, IMO, these 3 people have very different financial pictures:
Earns $50 in wages, has $0 in assets Earns $50k in income based on investments with no wages (perhaps retired, or trust fund) Earns $50k in wages with a $500k paid-off house and $1 million in retirement investments
Very different lifestyles and levels of comfort, yet all would pick the same number on the CNN quiz, no?
*Anecdote - I know someone who works as a barista. In Chicago. She lives in a 2 bedroom apartment in a desirable neighborhood in Chicago. She takes at least 1 major domestic and 1 international vacation per year, in addition to flying to see her parents about 4-6 times per year. She told me that her roommate was struggling with what to do about his car because "it was, like, really old and probably wouldn't survive another winter - it had over 80,000 miles on it." Good news! It was accidentally totaled by a tree, so his mom took the money, bought herself a new car, and gave him her 3-4 year old car. Whew! That was a close one.
When I was a barista, I knew no one at work who lived like this, lol. And in fact, I knew many more who did not have parents to fall back on, even to the extent I did (mine would occasionally buy me a plane ticket to come home for Christmas, and would have helped in a real, I-can't-pay-rent type of emergency).
If the "some people" you all are referring to is me, my point is this: there is something wrong with a country in which 90% of people, whether they make $30k or $200k, struggle to get ahead.
What do you check if you have no tools in your garage?
FWIW, I do think people at any income level can stress about money. In fact, I think the higher the income, the more likely you are to stress. But "struggle to get ahead?" Yeah, as someone who has literally gone through every inch of their house in the past in the hopes of finding enough spare change for lunch money or a couple extra diapers to make it until payday,
And I realize those are my own biases that I bring to the conversation and I realize it also borders on saying other people's lives can't be hard because they are not mine. But that's not what I'm saying. Life can be rough for anyone, for everyone. It simply doesn't change your socioeconomic standing. It doesn't change the framework of your circumstances, of your challenges, of your opportunities. It simply does.not.
For example, there are times when I feel fucking poor as dirt. But we're actually that bad off. It just feels that way, especially when we fuck up and don't manage shit well. I have to remind myself that I have a roof over our heads, my kids aren't hungry, the cars (plural at that) run, and we have some money leftover for hobbies. So in a sense, I can understand how easy it is to devalue your own position.
Class division is only meaningful where there is an aristocracy. BOOM!
j/k. I don't really care who's middle class, upper class, a Kennedy, a Rockfeller, a damn Walton. There is far to much nit-picking and hand wringing over this on MM.
What do you check if you have no tools in your garage?
FWIW, I do think people at any income level can stress about money. In fact, I think the higher the income, the more likely you are to stress. But "struggle to get ahead?" Yeah, as someone who has literally gone through every inch of their house in the past in the hopes of finding enough spare change for lunch money or a couple extra diapers to make it until payday,
And I realize those are my own biases that I bring to the conversation and I realize it also borders on saying other people's lives can't be hard because they are not mine. But that's not what I'm saying. Life can be rough for anyone, for everyone. It simply doesn't change your socioeconomic standing. It doesn't change the framework of your circumstances, of your challenges, of your opportunities. It simply does.not.
For example, there are times when I feel fucking poor as dirt. But we're actually that bad off. It just feels that way, especially when we fuck up and don't manage shit well. I have to remind myself that I have a roof over our heads, my kids aren't hungry, the cars (plural at that) run, and we have some money leftover for hobbies. So in a sense, I can understand how easy it is to devalue your own position.
(1) Thread closed (2) I just spit all over my keyboard.
You do realize a lot of this is TIC correct? I mean in the span of two months I met up with ttt Rio and Paris , no on is actually worried about being pereived as something other than middle class.
Which reminds me ttt if you ever want to meet up in Istanbul we will be on our 4th continent!!
Here, yes, ML, not so much.
L.O.L.
No.
I think people are "afraid" to be thought of as upper class because A) they think that upper class looks like rich people on TV and, uh, it doesn't; or B) they think that "middle class" values are important and that de facto anyone who isn't middle class must be an unethical hosebeast with no appreciation for hard work; or C) if they admit to being upper class Uncle Sam and/or random strangers and relatives are going to start asking them for money, and they need it to fund their retirement/new shoe accounts.
Class division is only meaningful where there is an aristocracy. BOOM!
j/k. I don't really care who's middle class, upper class, a Kennedy, a Rockfeller, a damn Walton. There is far to much nit-picking and hand wringing over this on MM.
LOL But I do agree with the aristocracy mention. We don't have a clear cut system like that so it's harder to place yourself.
In another era, on another continent, it was much more clearer. It was easier to separate the Mr Darcys of the world from the Duke of Devonshires the world. Though Darcy had enough money that Lady Catherine was perfectly willing to overlook that he was a mere gentleman and not a titled one.
Look, just because you eschew upper class traits do not make you middle class.
I mean for fuck's sake, I refuse, REFUSE to feed my kids spam and blue box mac and cheese, I don't play the lottery, I don't drink 40s, I don't buy my bras at walmart, I wear fancy fucking makeup, I own Jcrew dresses. I'm still sitting next to @majorwife on the working poor couch.
I like how the NYT defines social class as an intersection between occupation, education, income, and wealth. A professor for instance likely doesn't make a ton of money (especially a humanities prof) but they are often considered upper class by virtue of their advanced education and the high respect accorded to their profession. I would add background to the list but I realize that is *very* hard to articulate and input into this type of calculator. Anyway here it is:
I took this quiz when you posted it earlier. It puts me in a pretty high UC bracket. I can't believe it would not do so for you, or for V, etc. And I have negative assets.
Pretty high but not highest. Points were deducted due to the status of our professions (public school teacher, finance). Apparently finance is less well regarded than professions like medicine, law, teaching at the university level, etc. I forget what else was on there.
Look, just because you eschew upper class traits do not make you middle class.
I mean for fuck's sake, I refuse, REFUSE to feed my kids spam and blue box mac and cheese, I don't play the lottery, I don't drink 40s, I don't buy my bras at walmart, I wear fancy fucking makeup, I own Jcrew dresses. I'm still sitting next to @majorwife on the working poor couch.
I like how the NYT defines social class as an intersection between occupation, education, income, and wealth. A professor for instance likely doesn't make a ton of money (especially a humanities prof) but they are often considered upper class by virtue of their advanced education and the high respect accorded to their profession. I would add background to the list but I realize that is *very* hard to articulate and input into this type of calculator. Anyway here it is:
Look, just because you eschew upper class traits do not make you middle class.
I mean for fuck's sake, I refuse, REFUSE to feed my kids spam and blue box mac and cheese, I don't play the lottery, I don't drink 40s, I don't buy my bras at walmart, I wear fancy fucking makeup, I own Jcrew dresses. I'm still sitting next to @majorwife on the working poor couch.
I bought it at a yard sale.
I feed my kids blue box Mac and cheese, lol. They love it!
This is what I've been saying the while time. I never said we didn't have a lot of money. I was just trying to point out that your social class has to do with more than just income or net worth. If it didn't there would be no discussion.
well, there is a discussion b/c people like to naval gaze and talk about all their feels and their grandfather that had to struggle when he was a kid and how they dont nearly have enough money to Scrooge McDuck it for whatever reason.
Is this where we can bring up a certain poster who claimed she was poor because her dad owned his own successful business, had employees, etc. but still had to work hard? Cause fairness or some shit.