When exactly did the "feminism" become a problem?

[summer]

Was there a specific point or event or issue that turned "feminism" into a bad word that people want to run from?  Or did it just sort of happen over the years?  Was there a specific feminist that gave the rest a bad name?  

I swear I took Women's Studies, but I don't remember if there was a certain thing. 

[5thofjuly]

I swear a large part of it comes from stupid Rush Limbaugh using the word "Feminazi" over and over. I believe that happened around the time that first ladies actually wanted to do something other than host parties and Anita Hill asserted that sexual harassment was a sign of poor character.

But, feminists (the people, not the word) have always been seen as problematic, even by other women.

[smock]

I feel like the backlash was part of a concerted effort in the 80s/90s to discredit ideologies seen as incompatible with the conservative movement. In my mind, it's linked to the trashing of "liberal" as a term.

[josieposy]

I think it was right around the time God said to Adam "Dude, it was just one rib!"

[heyjude]

I don't know but Feminism is back in vogue now!

[zelda25]

Sept 24, 2014 12:14:22 GMT -5 5thofjuly said:

I swear a large part of it comes from stupid Rush Limbaugh using the word "Feminazi" over and over. I believe that happened around the time that first ladies actually wanted to do something other than host parties and Anita Hill asserted that sexual harassment was a sign of poor character.

But, feminists (the people, not the word) have always been seen as problematic, even by other women.

I'm here. I don't think feminism was ever not a problem, but I truly believe that the "feminazi" drum-beating that started in the early 90s started us on this path we're on now.

[heyjude]

I'm not sure you can be pro life and a feminist. Feminism is about female autonomy and equality. And that is the opposite of letting the government dictate what happens to a female body.

[josieposy]

Feminism became synonymous with "man hating" and other ideas and I think people fail to understand that feminism covers many facets and topics.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Sept 24, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm not sure you can be pro life and a feminist. Feminism is about female autonomy and equality. And that is the opposite of letting the government dictate what happens to a female body.

Yes. The anti-choice movement is fundamentally opposed to feminist ideals. But the people who say, "feminists said I can't be a SAHM. Feminists said I can't get married. Feminists say I can't like pink. Feminists say I must hate football," have been talking to the wrong feminists. Strike that--probably have never spoken to a real feminist, or at least never really listened. Feminism is not about validating every choice women make, but it's also not a restrictive doctrine out to strip every woman of her femininity. Despite what Rush would have you believe.

[heyjude]

Sept 24, 2014 12:37:27 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

Sept 24, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm not sure you can be pro life and a feminist. Feminism is about female autonomy and equality. And that is the opposite of letting the government dictate what happens to a female body.

Yes. The anti-choice movement is fundamentally opposed to feminist ideals. But the people who say, "feminists said I can't be a SAHM. Feminists said I can't get married. Feminists say I can't like pink. Feminists say I must hate football," have been talking to the wrong feminists. Strike that--probably have never spoken to a real feminist, or at least never really listened. Feminism is not about validating every choice women make, but it's also not a restrictive doctrine out to strip every woman of her femininity. Despite what Rush would have you believe.

Yes. I wear pink, makeup, and watch football. I'm still a feminist because there is nothing about the above that is antithetical to feminism. Denying me choice to what happens to my body? Not feminism.

[msmerymac]

Sept 24, 2014 12:52:38 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

this is where self identified feminists need to have the conversation about if we want all women acting towards our goals of equality even if they rebuff the title of feminist or do we want only women who are comfortable enough with the label of feminist doing our work beside us?

Is that really a choice? Whether a woman (or man) identifies as a feminist or not, if they are working towards equality, they are helping the movement. It's best if they aren't badmouthing feminists in the meantime, but eventually, the work is what matters. And I can't control what other people are doing.


Hell, even Sarah Palin has admitted that she benefited from feminism.

[heyjude]

Sept 24, 2014 12:52:38 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

this is where self identified feminists need to have the conversation about if we want all women acting towards our goals of equality even if they rebuff the title of feminist or do we want only women who are comfortable enough with the label of feminist doing our work beside us?

Is this really a big problem?

[downtoearth]

Sept 24, 2014 12:52:38 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

this is where self identified feminists need to have the conversation about if we want all women acting towards our goals of equality even if they rebuff the title of feminist or do we want only women who are comfortable enough with the label of feminist doing our work beside us?

This only works if women are all inherently feminist even if they don't want to be identified as such.  Is that the case?  I don't know.

If a woman coworker saw another woman coworker get passed up for a position and heard someone who was hiring mention it was because she seemed "too bossy" or "too assertive" or because she "may not have the time to devote herself with all she does at home" [implying that kids/family duties might get in the way], would every woman speak up or take a complaint to a higher up?  Does that woman complain in her community when all of her preferred party candidates are males?  Does that woman stand up to her friends and family when they tell their daughters to change clothes b/c they are "distracting" or slutty?  Does that woman get pissed when her daughter is complimented on how pretty she is and her son is told to "work hard and be smart?"  Does that piss off other women as much as I get pissed off when I perceive inequality issues?  If so, sure, step up to bat b/c we need more assertive women who are from all walks of life to join the game.

Now, I won't take her feminist card if she's pro-life, but thinks it's no DAMN business of the government to make any laws around the health of an individual. 

[heyjude]

I'm more concerned about people who don't believe in feminism who want to co-opt the label (eg anti choicers) than those who do believe in and fight for feminism but don't want to own the label. I'm not sure I have ever met the latter, to be honest.

[pinkdutchtulips]

my mom was on the forefront of the feminism movement in the early 70's - to this day she REFUSES to shop at Sears simply bc she not my dad was the primary breadwinner when they went to apply for a charge card there and they were denied - bc SHE was the breadwinner NOT my dad lol

then again, she also embraced the feminist ideal of choice - the choice to be a working woman (she taught school for 2 years before I came along) and the choice to be a sahm should she desire that too (she was .. for 13 years, doing sub work on an as needed basis) and the choice to go BACK when the kids could be left on their own (she got her M. Ed when she was 40 ! and resumed classroom teaching).

my guess is that it started becoming a problem in the late 80's/early 90's .. Better Dead Than Co-Ed at various single sex colleges that were facing closure. the movement to make it Herstory instead of History - removing any hint of male domination in something - cue up womyn's studies *insert eyeroll* Rush did the movement no favors when he coined the term Feminazi and Anne Coulter doesn't help either lol

my mom's generation fought hard to be heard and to be awarded choices that THEIR mother's generation had been denied .. now its swung the other way in which we've adopted this all or nothing attitude that doesn't do anyone favors since feminism imo was about the ability to have choices and not be FORCED one way or the other.

[eclaires]

I consider myself a feminist, but I've been told by others that I'm not. I used to take a more antagonistic stance and be like, "fine, I'm not a feminist then," and didn't self identify as one. But that's changed in recent years, and I decided I'm not letting other people's statements dictate what I identify as.

At the same time, I can see why others don't identify as feminists.

[downtoearth]

As for the OP - I think feminism has had some negative connotations since, well the early 1900s. As with any oppressed group, the detractors will try to dissuade others to follow by adding negative connotation. The first wave of feminism started with suffrage in those late 1800's/early 1900's, but if I recall was called suffrage more then feminism. Then the second wave of feminism was 1950s/1960s and was predominantly called women's liberation. Now feminism sprouted wing for more equality across broader socio-economic and racial groups of women in the 80's-90's and that is when the detractors took the feminist definition and negated it to dissuade change.

This article attributes it to Pat and Rush...

www.uni.illinois.edu/og/opinions/2011/11/our-favorite-f-word-misconception

As usual with controversial topics, feminism has been widely misinterpreted throughout history.

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women," said Pat Robertson, a television evangelist and former Baptist minister during his GOP convention speech in 1992. "It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."

Although most misinterpretations of feminism are not so radical, many have degraded feminists or might have discouraged women from joining the feminist movement. In 2004, the conservative political commentator Rush Limbaugh popularized the term “feminazi,” arguing that feminists’ views towards abortion are comparable to atrocities committed by the Nazis.

"When you associate someone with the Nazis or with Stalin or with Satan, you immediately cut out any possibility of an intelligent conversation," English teacher Elizabeth Majerus said. She explained that using such insults limits the exchange of productive conversation and causes people to resort to mindlessly "throwing words" and yelling at one another.

Perhaps these public denouncements of feminism are part of the reason our generation has misinterpreted feminism as a negative term.

But really, there is a already a name for women who do not agree with current 1990's+ feminism and those are post-feminists. I can't remember exactly and should look it up, but I think Post-feminism believes that feminism was good during suffrage and needed during woman's lib, but that now the world has changed and feminism is agreeable, but the actions taken by current feminists is overreaching and unneeded. Sort of the equivalent of a post-racial world view. Or maybe more that women are liberated and so sexism is not as prevalent as feminists perceive it to be.

There are so many identifiers for feminism that it's hard to not identify with one group or another as a woman. I studied ecofeminism in a class once - there we looked for connections between the western world oppressing the environment and women and therefore women become ecowarriors more often than men b/c since they can identify with the oppressive nature of western society.

[eclaires]

Sept 24, 2014 13:35:35 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

Sept 24, 2014 13:34:48 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I consider myself a feminist, but I've been told by others that I'm not. I used to take a more antagonistic stance and be like, "fine, I'm not a feminist then," and didn't self identify as one. But that's changed in recent years, and I decided I'm not letting other people's statements dictate what I identify as.

At the same time, I can see why others don't identify as feminists.

b/c you are a SAHM?

Yes.  Also because I have a law degree, yet choose to be a suburban mom stereotype.    I've been very open about the fact that we have made choices that are the best for our family that prioritize my husband's career, so I think that might be part of it, too.  I'm a SAHM because that's what I wanted related to my kids, but it's also been a choice to continue that because it allows my husband to put his career first without worrying about things at home/the kids/etc.  It's no longer solely about the kids, and I think some people see that as an anti-feminist point of view.

But for me, I know without a doubt that if our positions were reversed, my husband would happily make the same choices.  He would gladly stay home with the kids and run the household while I worked if it made sense for our family, so I don't see it that way.  If anything, it makes me feel like we are totally equal, even though we're in the traditional roles.  I may not be explaining it well, but the fact that we came to these decisions based on what is best for our family - and if the opposite situation were the case, we'd do the same - makes me feel like we are completely equal.  And I hope we are conveying that to the kids.  I think we are, but I guess you never know.  Jackson has said a few times when he grows up he wants to be home with his kids like I am, and we've had discussions about how both my contribution and my husband's are important to our family.  MH is also really involved with the kids when he isn't at work, which influences how I feel, too, I think.  If he were some 50s stereotype, I'd probably think I wasn't a feminist either, lol.

[downtoearth]

Sept 24, 2014 13:29:48 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

I can't pinpoint the extract time frame, but I'm going to go with when it became (by fact or by perception) a movement for middle class and upper middle class white women, at the extent of all other women.
Wait ... should I go sit in the corner?

That was the third wave of feminism... 1960's woman's lib was for white, upper/middle class women and so the 90's was the start of a new feminism that was for more oppressed racial and socio-economic groups of women. Obviously, it's not far reaching enough...

[iammalcolmx]

Sept 24, 2014 13:29:48 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

I can't pinpoint the extract time frame, but I'm going to go with when it became (by fact or by perception) a movement for middle class and upper middle class white women, at the extent of all other women.
Wait ... should I go sit in the corner?

I am on my way with you. It honestly only became a problem until it started getting discussed on here, and if you didn't agree with certain opinions on lets say " sex work" then you weren't. Before all that stuff I never thought about it.

[tacosforlife]

Sept 24, 2014 13:49:58 GMT -5 @dyermaker said:

Sept 24, 2014 13:19:04 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm more concerned about people who don't believe in feminism who want to co-opt the label (eg anti choicers) than those who do believe in and fight for feminism but don't want to own the label. I'm not sure I have ever met the latter, to be honest.

I think its safe to say you can save your concern. Prolife women are not trying to co-opt the term. I was only trying to point out that its a significant voting block and includes people that do fight for women's rights.

Not exactly true. See, e.g., Feminists for Life.

[downtoearth]

Sept 24, 2014 13:51:32 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Sept 24, 2014 13:44:52 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

That was the third wave of feminism... woman's lib was for white, upper/middle class women and so the 90's was the start of a new feminism that was for more oppressed racial and socio-economic groups of women. Obviously, it's not far reaching enough...

Um , so,  how's that going?
IRL, I'm just not sure the buy-in is there. 

I'm not sure... seems we've got a ways to go. I didn't realize until these boards that all women did not self-identify as feminists. I just thought that was given... I'm a women = I'm a feminist. I thought the majority of the problem was that men didn't identify as feminists. So I'm still trying to figure it out.

[eclaires]

Sept 24, 2014 14:07:00 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

Sept 24, 2014 13:44:19 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Yes.  Also because I have a law degree, yet choose to be a suburban mom stereotype.    I've been very open about the fact that we have made choices that are the best for our family that prioritize my husband's career, so I think that might be part of it, too.  I'm a SAHM because that's what I wanted related to my kids, but it's also been a choice to continue that because it allows my husband to put his career first without worrying about things at home/the kids/etc.  It's no longer solely about the kids, and I think some people see that as an anti-feminist point of view.

But for me, I know without a doubt that if our positions were reversed, my husband would happily make the same choices.  He would gladly stay home with the kids and run the household while I worked if it made sense for our family, so I don't see it that way.  If anything, it makes me feel like we are totally equal, even though we're in the traditional roles.  I may not be explaining it well, but the fact that we came to these decisions based on what is best for our family - and if the opposite situation were the case, we'd do the same - makes me feel like we are completely equal.  And I hope we are conveying that to the kids.  I think we are, but I guess you never know.  Jackson has said a few times when he grows up he wants to be home with his kids like I am, and we've had discussions about how both my contribution and my husband's are important to our family.  MH is also really involved with the kids when he isn't at work, which influences how I feel, too, I think.  If he were some 50s stereotype, I'd probably think I wasn't a feminist either, lol.

I dont disagree with you here at all.

but given that women still only make .78 for every mans $1.00 how much of it was a "choice" choice, you know? not that by you being a SAHM disqualifies you from being a feminist, any more than not having an abortion does. its just that the SAHM debate is a false war to start. KWIM?

I see what you mean, but I think that's where the whole law degree thing comes in.  In theory, if we had focused on my career, it's very possibly I could have been out earning my husband right away, so I think that influenced some of people's comments to me, specifically.  I mean there is some lack of choice in there due to circumstances and timing of when we had kids, and the fact that MH was working while I was in law school.  IDK, I could be wrong, but I think some of the comments I've received have been rooted in the fact that, in theory, I could make the money he makes, and possibly (likely) more.  

[Velar Fricative]

I wonder if it's more than a coincidence that feminism is a dirty word these days all while LGBT rights are being asserted WRT gay marriage. Feminists hate men and must all be lesbians and now they have all these equal rights and stuff!

I don't think I'm articulating this well and could be totally wrong, but just a thought.

[gpw]

g was here. I will need this at some point this semester, I'm sure.

[downtoearth]

Sept 24, 2014 14:18:26 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

Sept 24, 2014 14:10:20 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I see what you mean, but I think that's where the whole law degree thing comes in.  In theory, if we had focused on my career, it's very possibly I could have been out earning my husband right away, so I think that influenced some of people's comments to me, specifically.  I mean there is some lack of choice in there due to circumstances and timing of when we had kids, and the fact that MH was working while I was in law school.  IDK, I could be wrong, but I think some of the comments I've received have been rooted in the fact that, in theory, I could make the money he makes, and possibly (likely) more.  

i think this feeds into the upper class white women problems that feminism is seen as.

I was just going to say that debating the feminist decision for professional, married, upper-middle+ class, white women to decide to SAH or not is an obvious way to turn @kirkette and iammalcolmx into die-hard feminists.

[Deleted]

Sept 24, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm not sure you can be pro life and a feminist. Feminism is about female autonomy and equality. And that is the opposite of letting the government dictate what happens to a female body.

You don't get to fucking say shit like this and then complain when some women feel some kind of way about calling themselves feminists.

I mean seriously.

[meshaliuknits]

I am a feminist in that I believe women are equal in worth, ability and what have you. I have issues with the feminist movement because it leaves out poor women and women of color. But I have those issues with a lot of things.

[aurora]

Sept 24, 2014 14:06:02 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Sept 24, 2014 13:56:59 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I'm not sure... seems we've got a ways to go. I didn't realize until these boards that all women did not self-identify as feminists. I just thought that was given... I'm a women = I'm a feminist. I thought the majority of the problem was that men didn't identify as feminists. So I'm still trying to figure it out.

I mean, understandably, I'd imagine it would be hard to feel solidarity if members of the group had given you the middle finger. Where's the sisterhood in that? Plus, there are the years of Black women/White women dynamics that may add an extra layer of discomfort. 

Honest question: what can I, a white, upper-middle class woman and feminist, do to help the movement feel more welcoming to women of color and poor women?  When I say "women should be paid equally to men for equal work" (and go further to push for societal recognition that women's work has been devalued exactly because it was traditionally done by women), I truly mean for all women of all races and at all economic levels.  I don't want to be off-putting to women from different backgrounds, but maybe some of the things I do and say are inadvertently off-putting.  Or is it more that I would be a better representative of feminism if I were also more active in racial equality causes, etc.? 

I'm really not trying to be snarky.  I just am not really sure what I, as an individual, should be doing to make a difference on this one.

[sugarglider]

I've been on both sides of the fence on the abortion issue. While the pro-choice movement is clearly a pro-woman movement, I believe there is a schism on the other side of the movement between the truly pro-lifers and the anti-choicers. I don't doubt that many of the men fighting against abortion in various legislatures are anti-choice. However, the vast majority of pro-life women I know truly do believe that life begins at conception and therefore to terminate a pregnancy is the same as ending a life. And simply because only women can get pregnant does not make that viewpoint inherently anti-feminist.

I rejected the term for a very long time until about a year and a half ago, really, when I read--and fell intellectually in love with--Catharine MacKinnon. I then read Lean In and was drawn in to executive feminism. I've performed in a production of The Vagina Monologues. I've written about how sex offender registries are a tool of the patriarchy. I've seen MacKinnon speak and gotten her autograph. And I've recently signed up to volunteer to help trafficking victims. I preach the feminist gospel more than I preach my religion. I'm determined to get my S/O to identify as a feminist, despite coming from a relatively conservative background (and have made major strides in this quest). But I stay out of the abortion debate. Because I honestly get both sides.
I'me frustrated that so many feminists feel there's no room to disagree on when life begins. Because I don't think my discomfort with abortion should mean I can't be a feminist.