In a brain scan, relational pain—that caused by isolation during punishment—can look the same as physical abuse. Is alone in the corner the best place for your child?
Time-out is the most popular discipline technique used by parents and the one most often recommended by pediatricians and child development experts. But is it good for kids? Is it effective? Not according to the implications of the latest research on relationships and the developing brain.
Studies in neuroplasticity—the brain’s adaptability—have proved that repeated experiences actually change the physical structure of the brain. Since discipline-related interactions between children and caregivers comprise a large amount of childhood experiences, it becomes vital that parents thoughtfully consider how they respond when kids misbehave. Discipline is about teaching – not about punishment – and finding ways to teach children appropriate behavior is essential for healthy development.
So what about time-outs? In most cases, the primary experience a time-out offers a child is isolation. Even when presented in a patient and loving manner, time-outs teach them that when they make a mistake, or when they are having a hard time, they will be forced to be by themselves—a lesson that is often experienced, particularly by young children, as rejection. Further, it communicates to kids, “I’m only interested in being with you and being there for you when you’ve got it all together.”
The problem is, children have a profound need for connection. Decades of research in attachment demonstrate that particularly in times of distress, we need to be near and be soothed by the people who care for us. But when children lose emotional control, parents often put them in their room or by themselves in the “naughty chair,” meaning that in this moment of emotional distress they have to suffer alone.
When children are overtaxed emotionally, they sometimes misbehave; their intense emotions and the demands of the situation trump their internal resources. The expression of a need or a big feeling therefore results in aggressive, disrespectful, or uncooperative behavior—which is simply proof that children haven’t built certain self-regulation skills yet. Misbehavior is often a cry for help calming down, and a bid for connection.
When the parental response is to isolate the child, an instinctual psychological need of the child goes unmet. In fact, brain imaging shows that the experience of relational pain—like that caused by rejection—looks very similar to the experience of physical pain in terms of brain activity.
On top of everything, time-outs are usually ineffective in accomplishing the goals of discipline: to change behavior and build skills. Parents may think that time-outs cause children to calm down and reflect on their behavior. But instead, time-outs frequently make children angrier and more dysregulated, leaving them even less able to control themselves or think about what they’ve done, and more focused on how mean their parents are to have punished them.
When children concentrate on their horrible luck to have such a mean, unfair mom or dad, they miss out on an opportunity to build insight, empathy, and problem-solving skills. Putting them in time-out deprives them of an opportunity to build skills that other types of discipline could focus on. Setting clear limits while emphasizing collaboration, conversation, and respect gives kids a chance to practice being active, empathic decision makers who are empowered to figure things out on their own.
Next time the need for discipline arises, parents might consider a “time-in”: forging a loving connection, such as sitting with the child and talking or comforting. Some time to calm down can be extremely valuable for children, teaching them how to pause and reflect on their behavior. Especially for younger children, such reflection is created in relationship, not in isolation. And all of this will make parenting a whole lot more effective and rewarding in the long run.
Daniel J. Siegel, M.D., co-author with Bryson of the new book No-Drama Discipline: The Whole-Brain Way to Calm the Chaos and Nurture Your Child’s Developing Mind, is clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine, the founding co-director of the UCLA Mindful Awareness Research Center, and executive director of the Mindsight institute. A graduate of Harvard Medical School, Dr. Siegel is the author of several books, including the New York Times bestseller, Brainstorm, together with the bestsellers Mindsight, Parenting from the Inside Out (with Mary Hartzell) and The Whole-Brain Child (with Bryson).
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D., is the co-author (with Siegel) of the best-selling The Whole-Brain Child, which has been translated into eighteen languages. She is a pediatric and adolescent psychotherapist, the Director of Parenting for the Mindsight Institute, and the Child Development Specialist at Saint Mark’s School in Altadena, CA.
On top of everything, time-outs are usually ineffective in accomplishing the goals of discipline: to change behavior and build skills. Parents may think that time-outs cause children to calm down and reflect on their behavior. But instead, time-outs frequently make children angrier and more dysregulated, leaving them even less able to control themselves or think about what they’ve done, and more focused on how mean their parents are to have punished them.
is simply not true in my experience. I'm not sure how the people they've looked at are conducting their time outs, but when my friend's kids and my nieces and nephews have a freak out and get put in time out they usually go in screaming like wild banshees, calm down, and come out, have a nice little chat with mom or dad about how yes, they know it's not nice to [hit/throw things/steal toys from the baby/whatever] and that they're sorry and will play nice now and then they go back to playing nicely with their friends. If they came out just as sullen as when they went in they're hiding it REALLY well. And since they're 5, that seems unlikely.
Disciplining a child by sitting with them and "forging a connection"? Not a parent yet, but that sounds...not effective.
I could see it being effective in some very specific circumstances. But generally - yeah, I'm here.
Especially if a kid is acting out in a bid for attention - and then you give them attention - and.....they learn....what exactly? I mean, yeah, make a point to spend some one on one time with that kid since clearly they need it. But not in that moment.
Side note: MH emailed me this article. I emailed him back and was like, 'uhhh, are you trying to tell me something here love?" He responded and said, "No, the part about how time outs look the same on brain scans as child abuse - I want to know who had a child hooked up to a brain scanner while they beat the crap out of them."
That's my boy. Always thinking. I am curious about this now. What in the world is their baseline for comparison there??
Post by CrazyLucky on Sept 25, 2014 8:18:58 GMT -5
I just pulled an eye muscle from rolling them so hard. We use time outs a lot. Perhaps in some perfect world, when your child is being punished for hitting his sister for the tenth time or for throwing a toy at her head or for screaming NO at the top of his lungs, there are parents who can take the child and calmly hold and stroke them and then the child stops misbehaving. In my world, both the kid and the parent need a minute to calm down. It's not like I put DS in time out for a couple of hours. He gets four minutes because he's four. I have a hard time believing that four minutes of alone time a few times a week is messing with his physical brain.
Yeah, when my kid snatches a toy from his brother it's a cry for connection and help calming down, lol. It's a cry for Fischer Price.
Look I tried this positive shit with potty training - because I've never taught someone to shit in a can, so I thought someone might know better than I - and every morning when I said "do you want to sit on the potty?" I got "soon". When I said "I expect you to sit on the potty every morning. Here we go" he magically went w/o protest and celebrated his stickers.
You have to do things you don't want to do, or things that are hard, is the #1 most important lesson I'm teaching. If I wait until they do it on their own, they never will.
Not to mention, my kid doesn't want to be around me when he doesn't like my answer. He's really sensitive about feeling mocked, I can't do that toddler-ese thing with him. His new thing is "you're not my friend". Nope, bud, I'm your parent.
This looks like another one of those articles where your world is supposed to totally revolve around your kids so they never have a moment of discomfort.
Post by demandypants on Sept 25, 2014 8:47:00 GMT -5
yea, there is no talking to my daughter until she has had time to have a full on meltdown. DH tries it all the time, and fails miserably. Timeout gives her space and time for that, then we can talk like real people.
Which compared the brain images of college students who recently experienced an unwanted breakup looking at pictures of their ex to college students looking at pictures of a friend while being burned with a hot probe on their arm. (that must have been an interesting release form). So we're comparing the emotional distress of a 20 year old who just got dumped and is looking at old happy pictures of their ex to a kid sitting in time out for 2 minutes.
Ok, kids, raise your hand if you think a breakup and a 2 minute timeout are likely similar levels of emotional impact...
Post by irishbride2 on Sept 25, 2014 8:55:15 GMT -5
I skimmed.
IME it depends on the kid. DD puts herself in "time out" because sometimes she just needs time to collect herself and calm down. I have, however, seen other kids react completely differently.
I think of myself as a very calm parent who generally uses natural consequences and talks through things. But sometimes DD is so worked up she needs to calm down before we can talk.
My parents used "the corner" as punishment of choice if we were acting ridiculous. I can't recall ever thinking/worrying that they only liked me when I was happy.
I don't use time out for every problem, but I know some space actually helps me cool down if LO is doing things he knows pushes my buttons. Because 3yr olds can be assholes. Sometimes he does in fact need a "time in" and I just sit and hug him then things are ok. But I pick/chose how I respond based on what's led up to the issue at hand. If he's melting down because he's overtired, I opt for time-in because I know it'll work. If he's purposefully taking the baby's toys to get a rise out of me, into the room he goes until he can share.
I cannot get on board with the idea that a brief time-out is akin to beating your kid. Talk about a big stretch. Maybe if you force your kid to spend all day alone and never interact with her, but that's neglect and not the same.
Disciplining a child by sitting with them and "forging a connection"? Not a parent yet, but that sounds...not effective.
In many cases, I think this would be more of a positive reinforcement--act out, get love and affection. I think this might work if the child was overwhelmed and frustrated, but you smack your sister? Your ass is in time out. You don't get hugs and kisses.
Time out is a very valuable life lesson. It teaches you that no one wants to talk to you while you're being an asshole. If that hurts your feelings, fabulous. Better to have them hurt now by the adult who feeds you and hugs you even after you've been an asshole than by the adult who calls the cops on you and puts you out of the apartment because you're a screaming shitbag who never learned to share.
You know what fucking annoys me the most about shit like this, about the idea that your child should never feel negatively ever, never be upset, never feel any sort of loss however temporary, never be permitted to cry if mommy can help it, etc is that it NEVER takes into consideration that kids are being raised by at least one adult who needs a fucking minute.
These theories may make for temporarily happier children but imo, they need to stressed out parents who risk snapping and doing something they regret.
Time out isn't just a place where kids can get themselves together and/or think about their behavior, it's a parental respite that gives me time to think about their behavior, get myself together, and sometimes just get five whole minutes of fucking peace.
I thought mominatrix used TI with her kids and said it worked?
I thought about tagging her. I know she's big fan of natural consequences and the like, but I don't remember her saying that she rejects time outs entirely.
Also, you can do TO and TI simultaneously. I think most parents do. After your kid calms the fuck down, most parents will gather them up, reinforce the lesson being learned, and then snuggle the kid a bit before sending them on their way.
"We don't throw tonka trucks at your sister's head. Sorry, not sorry. Now give me a hug because I love you and I don't want you to hurt people, okay?"
Time out is a very valuable life lesson. It teaches you that no one wants to talk to you while you're being an asshole. If that hurts your feelings, fabulous. Better to have them hurt now by the adult who feeds you and hugs you even after you've been an asshole than by the adult who calls the cops on you and puts you out of the apartment because you're a screaming shitbag who never learned to share.
You know what fucking annoys me the most about shit like this, about the idea that your child should never feel negatively ever, never be upset, never feel any sort of loss however temporary, never be permitted to cry if mommy can help it, etc is that it NEVER takes into consideration that kids are being raised by at least one adult who needs a fucking minute.
These theories may make for temporarily happier adults but imo, they need to stressed out parents who risk snapping and doing something they regret.
Time out isn't just a place where kids can get themselves together and/or think about their behavior, it's a parental respite that gives me time to think about their behavior, get myself together, and sometimes just get five whole minutes of fucking peace.
You can just speak for me for the rest of this thread's lifespan. You got it.
This is reminding me of that gif with the Ill just shoot off to job land where jobbies grow on trees and get a job.
Oh, okay, while parenting when my kid acts well and truly heinous I should DROP EVERYTHING ELSE, allow my world to revolve around her and "forge a connection" in order to calm her gently, building lasting bonds that will cause her to realize, on her own, despite her not-yet-fully-developed prefrontal cortex, that good behavior is the way to go.
yea, there is no talking to my daughter until she has had time to have a full on meltdown. DH tries it all the time, and fails miserably. Timeout gives her space and time for that, then we can talk like real people.
This. And 3/4s of the time she fell asleep because she was acting out from tiredness. But if I told her to take a nap it was WWIII, so I just let that work out on its own.
She's now a hs sophomore and does not seem terribly scarred.
Eta: time outs in our house were go in your room, you can play quietly on your bed once you calm down.
Yeah, I don't do traditional time outs for tantrums. For those, I will drag you into your room and leave you there. I would say carry because that's the intent but godalmighty fucking toddlers love the flail out. That attempted carry ends up being something between a drag and a roll every.single.time.
I used TOs all the time with my first kid and he seems fine. I would use them on my youngest but I don't find them effective for him. Then again, not much is effective when you're trying to punish a honey badger.
I went to a parenting conference that focused on this kind of thing. It was very parenting *with* your children not *to* your children. It was all very theoretical - No one could really explain how to get their 4 year old not to smack their little sister this way. Talking is great, but sometimes a time out is the only answer to correct behavior - especially for a preschooler. I can see how a 2 year old doesn't understand why they're in the corner, but 4 and up they need some sort of behavior correction. I am just not that crunchy or calm all the time to talk it out.
Some of the attendees were out of a Portlandia sketch.
Yeah, I don't do traditional time outs for tantrums. For those, I will drag you into your room and leave you there. I would say carry because that's the intent but godalmighty fucking toddlers love the flail out. That attempted carry ends up being something between a drag and a roll every.single.time.
How would you get them to stay there though? That's the part that I could never figure out. He would just run out following me and escalate the behavior making everything worse.
Well a 3 or 4 yo can open a door. We talked to our pediatrician about this once and he suggested locking him in but all of us (including the dr) were uncomfortable with that.
yeah, I meant a locked door. But my question mark was sincere - I'm not sure if that's workable.
Yeah, I don't do traditional time outs for tantrums. For those, I will drag you into your room and leave you there. I would say carry because that's the intent but godalmighty fucking toddlers love the flail out. That attempted carry ends up being something between a drag and a roll every.single.time.
How would you get them to stay there though? That's the part that I could never figure out. He would just run out following me and escalate the behavior making everything worse.
Personally, I just take him back. I don't speak to him, don't explain any further. I just keep carting him right back. If it takes all day, it takes all day.
With one of my kids, I used an egg timer. If she came out before the egg timer went off, I would have to take her back. Once she understood that, it became easier to stay. I've used that with kids I nannied for too, especially the ones who would just get worse. I think for those kids, it's really hard to grasp that they won't be in time out forever. Being able to see the time pass, to know that I'm not just going to forget about them made it easier for them to take that time.
For the ones who truly dreaded time out and would fight tooth and nail, I would give them a countdown in which if they calmed themselves, they wouldn't have to go. So something like "I'm going to count to five and we'll be all done crying, alright?" Some kids just need to wail I think lol but that doesn't mean Imma spend all day listening to it.
Post by irishbride2 on Sept 25, 2014 10:15:37 GMT -5
We even do a modified TO in middle school. We call it TAB: take a break. Sometimes people just need a few minutes to collect themselves. So if I tell someone to TAB, they go get a drink of water, or go sit in the hall for a few minutes until they have collected themselves and are ready to move on.
But yet again, it depends on the kid. Some kids would find a TAB to be humiliating and I would not use it with them. Others truly need a few minutes to get it together and TABs are really helpful.
@lcap, does he have an activity or a book that calms him down? For some kids, I've used a special place and a particular book. It's kind of a nice place, a little rug, out in the open, or maybe just the end of one couch. No one was allowed to mess with them there and I wouldn't keep nagging them about why they were upset. Maybe coloring or some time with playdough or something. Which I know sounds kind of counter productive but did work for some kids.
Some kids I had to switch up my language. Instead of "you're in time out, you stay there until I come get you" or whatever, I switched to, Why don't you sit on your bed for a minute and you can come out when you're feeling better." In the second instance, it's all on them. Some kids like having a measure of control.