@Time out users might as well be Adrian Peterson - Time Mag

[Deleted]

I will give my kids time outs when they need it.

I will also give myself a time out sometimes, that shit works! Give yourself a few minutes to calm your breathing and analyze what is making you so upset and why.

Derp.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 10:26:27 GMT -5 incogneato said:

So when my kid slaps me, I should.... Not walk away?

F that noise.

You should hold them and love them and stuff. Because kids can't ever feel bad. Ever.

[eclaires]

I've used both depending on the situation. TOs more frequently, but there are times where I can tell that something is off, and that a TO is not going to end the issue. I think they both have their place, but for most general misbehavior, a TO/going to your room is useful. Time in, or whatever, is something I really only use when I can see the difference in the behavior and can tell something else is up. And I don't do TOs in stores, I give the whisper yell and the death glare, which reminds them of the #1 rule - don't act like an ass in public.

With Scarlett, though, she will lose her mind over something (not a tantrum, more like an emotional breakdown because it is usually not preceded by her getting in trouble or doing something wrong - she will just get upset, and her upset is full on DRAMA which annoys me), and I tell her to go to her room and/or ignore her. She will often take herself to her room to have her DRAMA now and then comes out. I appreciate that because it seriously, seriously annoys me. Me telling her to go to her room usually escalates her noise and flailing, but she goes, and calms herself down and then comes downstairs like nothing happened.

[heyjude]

Sorry if this has already been said but there is actually nothing scientific going on in this article. It's just the same old hippy dippy mushy wushy attachment parenting hooray hog wash that is shoved down Mom's throats (usually by men too!).

Actual real life scientific studies have been done on time outs and (1) they are not harmful and (2) they are effective IF YOU DO THEM CORRECTLY.

You can read more about it here:
www.slate.com/articles/double_x/the_kids/2013/04/should_i_give_my_misbehaving_kid_a_timeout.html

[KB]

Sept 25, 2014 10:15:37 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

We even do a modified TO in middle school. We call it TAB: take a break. Sometimes people just need a few minutes to collect themselves. So if I tell someone to TAB, they go get a drink of water, or go sit in the hall for a few minutes until they have collected themselves and are ready to move on.

But yet again, it depends on the kid. Some kids would find a TAB to be humiliating and I would not use it with them. Others truly need a few minutes to get it together and TABs are really helpful.

DS is 4 and we use this on the regular. It has been really effective for us in helping to de-escalate a situation before we are in a full scale, level 5 meltdown. That said, there are some things that are non-negotiable. In those cases, its time out in his bedroom. Buh-bye. 

[cinnamoncox]

I do both I guess. It depends on what's going on. We don't have tons of space and there are five of us, one being a teen who is the size of a grown up, so I sometimes have to send one of this little ones (4) to time out for douchy behavior, but in phrase it like, there are five of us, we can't all sit here aggravating one another. Stay out here and get along, or go to your room until you're ready to act right.

If it's an issue of frustration, I will do the calm lets hug it out or cuddle on your bed thing. I will relate and say oh that's so frustrating, I would be upset too, let's snuggle, have some milk, then try again.

If they're hitting or shoving or taking each other's toy or calling me stupid or threatening to not stop being a douche until I give in to whatever they want, yeah, then it's bye bye time, get to your room and maybe I will call you back out soon if you're lucky.

Eta: and I'm big on taking a breather. I will let them know, if I can sense an issue arising, hey Angela, want to go color in your room? It's her favorite thing to do, and she is the harder to manage of the twins, so when I can tell she is heating up, I'll try to head it off at the pass and suggest her fav activity, she goes and colors, and forgets she was about to smack her sister down. Usually works. Plus I sometimes will be like ugh, I'm feeling frustrated, I'm going to my room for a few minutes. So they can see that we all feel like shit sometimes, and we take a breather, it's ok.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 11:54:30 GMT -5 @dontcallmeshirley1 said:

I said this over on MMM, but the idea that restraining a flailing preschooler in a "time in" is any less neurologically damaging than leaving a tantruming child alone to cry is dubious to me. An out of control child can eff most adults up, and restraint can be dangerous for both parties without proper training. Obviously, there are times when a kid is so out of control that he needs to be held, but I can't get behind the idea that doing so is preferable to leaving the kid (who is not a danger to himself or others) alone.

This is a good point. I don't put my hands on my children when they have lost their ever loving mind (aside from ushering them to their room) because in that moment, I'm often angry as hell. I often tune them out, dismiss them as attention seeking, and kind of shut down. I need to step away. Having my hands on my child then, holding them down, or trying to restrain them would not be a good thing for either of us.

[taratru]

I've tried both of these things on DD3 and neither of them are particularly effective.

This means my kid actually IS the anti-Christ, doesn't it?

[epphd]

 I have so many issues with this article.

Sept 25, 2014 7:57:47 GMT -5 wawa said:

In a brain scan, relational pain—that caused by isolation during punishment—can look the same as physical abuse. Is alone in the corner the best place for your child? when compared with hitting a child or yelling? Yes.

Time-out is the most popular discipline technique used by parents and the one most often recommended by pediatricians and child development experts. But is it good for kids? Is it effective? Not according to the implications of the latest research on relationships and the developing brain. general comment - I love the completely unsourced assertions throughout this op-ed.

Studies in neuroplasticity—the brain’s adaptability—have proved that repeated experiences actually change the physical structure of the brain. Yep, that's the point - to connect an unpleasant experience with misbehavior. Since discipline-related interactions between children and caregivers comprise a large amount of childhood experiences, it becomes vital that parents thoughtfully consider how they respond when kids misbehave. Discipline is about teaching – not about punishment no, sometimes it's about punishment. When my kid goes out of his way to do exactly what I've JUST told him he can't, or does something like hit, kick, etc - punishment is the consequence. Time out, loss of privileges, etc. – and finding ways to teach children appropriate behavior is essential for healthy development.

So what about time-outs? In most cases, the primary experience a time-out offers a child is isolation. Even when presented in a patient and loving manner, time-outs teach them that when they make a mistake, or when they are having a hard time, they will be forced to be by themselves—a lesson that is often experienced, particularly by young children, as rejection. Further, it communicates to kids, “I’m only interested in being with you and being there for you when you’ve got it all together.” Look, if I'm a dick in real life as adult, no is going to fucking sit me down and give me a hug. Know what they'll do? Isolate me, not interact with me, and deprive me of their company. At what point is it not "cruel" to teach a kid this lesson? They have to learn SOME TIME don't they?

The problem is, children have a profound need for connection. Decades of research in attachment demonstrate that particularly in times of distress, we need to be near and be soothed by the people who care for us. But when children lose emotional control, parents often put them in their room or by themselves in the “naughty chair,” meaning that in this moment of emotional distress they have to suffer alone.

When children are overtaxed emotionally exist, they sometimes misbehave; their intense emotions and the demands of the situation trump their internal resources. The expression of a need or a big feeling therefore results in aggressive, disrespectful, or uncooperative behavior—which is simply proof that children haven’t built certain self-regulation skills yet. Misbehavior is often a cry for help calming down or a cry for boundary setting, and a bid for connection.

When the parental response is to isolate the child, an instinctual psychological need of the child goes unmet. In fact, brain imaging shows that the experience of relational pain—like that caused by rejection—looks very similar to the experience of physical pain in terms of brain activity. you can't say this kind of shit without data. "looks like?" meaning what - there's activity in the same region? How much? What does that region "do"? What other experiences elicit that sort of "activity"?

On top of everything, time-outs are usually ineffective in accomplishing the goals of discipline: to change behavior and build skills. Parents may think that time-outs cause children to calm down and reflect on their behavior. But instead, time-outs frequently make children angrier and more dysregulated, leaving them even less able to control themselves or think about what they’ve done, and more focused on how mean their parents are to have punished them. I think this is an overly broad assertion. Certainly to true in my experience.

When children concentrate on their horrible luck to have such a mean, unfair mom or dad, they miss out on an opportunity to build insight, empathy, and problem-solving skills. Putting them in time-out deprives them of an opportunity to build skills that other types of discipline could focus on. Setting clear limits while emphasizing collaboration, conversation, and respect gives kids a chance to practice being active, empathic decision makers who are empowered to figure things out on their own.

Next time the need for discipline arises, parents might consider a “time-in”: forging a loving connection, such as sitting with the child and talking or comforting. Some time to calm down can be extremely valuable for children, teaching them how to pause and reflect on their behavior. Especially for younger children, such reflection is created in relationship, not in isolation. And all of this will make parenting a whole lot more effective and rewarding in the long run. Hey man, whatever works for your and your kid. There have been times where it has been abundantly clear that me sitting in a room with Sam is an effective intervention - but they are rare. Usually these occur when I've been out of town or he's been unable to get some undivided attention for an unreasonable amount of time (when we've had out of town guests for a long time, etc). But if the consequence for being a dick is alone time with their favorite person... guess what happens?

[meshaliuknits]

Sept 25, 2014 10:15:00 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Sept 25, 2014 10:01:55 GMT -5 @lcap said:

How would you get them to stay there though? That's the part that I could never figure out. He would just run out following me and escalate the behavior making everything worse.

Personally, I just take him back. I don't speak to him, don't explain any further. I just keep carting him right back. If it takes all day, it takes all day.

With one of my kids, I used an egg timer. If she came out before the egg timer went off, I would have to take her back. Once she understood that, it became easier to stay. I've used that with kids I nannied for too, especially the ones who would just get worse. I think for those kids, it's really hard to grasp that they won't be in time out forever. Being able to see the time pass, to know that I'm not just going to forget about them made it easier for them to take that time.

For the ones who truly dreaded time out and would fight tooth and nail, I would give them a countdown in which if they calmed themselves, they wouldn't have to go. So something like "I'm going to count to five and we'll be all done crying, alright?" Some kids just need to wail I think lol but that doesn't mean Imma spend all day listening to it.

That's how I do BabyLiu. Mostly works. She very rarely gets time outs.

[jln]

Sept 25, 2014 9:13:10 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Also, you can do TO and TI simultaneously. I think most parents do. After your kid calms the fuck down, most parents will gather them up, reinforce the lesson being learned, and then snuggle the kid a bit before sending them on their way.

"We don't throw tonka trucks at your sister's head. Sorry, not sorry. Now give me a hug because I love you and I don't want you to hurt people, okay?"

That's essentially what we do.  But DS is only 2.5 so we use age-appropriate discipline and work with what he can understand.  And, of course, it varies based on the offense.  

[heyjude]

Sept 25, 2014 12:23:43 GMT -5 epphd said:

 I have so many issues with this article.

Sept 25, 2014 7:57:47 GMT -5 wawa said:

In a brain scan, relational pain—that caused by isolation during punishment—can look the same as physical abuse. Is alone in the corner the best place for your child? when compared with hitting a child or yelling? Yes.

Time-out is the most popular discipline technique used by parents and the one most often recommended by pediatricians and child development experts. But is it good for kids? Is it effective? Not according to the implications of the latest research on relationships and the developing brain. general comment - I love the completely unsourced assertions throughout this op-ed.

Studies in neuroplasticity—the brain’s adaptability—have proved that repeated experiences actually change the physical structure of the brain. Yep, that's the point - to connect an unpleasant experience with misbehavior. Since discipline-related interactions between children and caregivers comprise a large amount of childhood experiences, it becomes vital that parents thoughtfully consider how they respond when kids misbehave. Discipline is about teaching – not about punishment no, sometimes it's about punishment. When my kid goes out of his way to do exactly what I've JUST told him he can't, or does something like hit, kick, etc - punishment is the consequence. Time out, loss of privileges, etc. – and finding ways to teach children appropriate behavior is essential for healthy development.

So what about time-outs? In most cases, the primary experience a time-out offers a child is isolation. Even when presented in a patient and loving manner, time-outs teach them that when they make a mistake, or when they are having a hard time, they will be forced to be by themselves—a lesson that is often experienced, particularly by young children, as rejection. Further, it communicates to kids, “I’m only interested in being with you and being there for you when you’ve got it all together.” Look, if I'm a dick in real life as adult, no is going to fucking sit me down and give me a hug. Know what they'll do? Isolate me, not interact with me, and deprive me of their company. At what point is it not "cruel" to teach a kid this lesson? They have to learn SOME TIME don't they?

The problem is, children have a profound need for connection. Decades of research in attachment demonstrate that particularly in times of distress, we need to be near and be soothed by the people who care for us. But when children lose emotional control, parents often put them in their room or by themselves in the “naughty chair,” meaning that in this moment of emotional distress they have to suffer alone.

When children are overtaxed emotionally exist, they sometimes misbehave; their intense emotions and the demands of the situation trump their internal resources. The expression of a need or a big feeling therefore results in aggressive, disrespectful, or uncooperative behavior—which is simply proof that children haven’t built certain self-regulation skills yet. Misbehavior is often a cry for help calming down or a cry for boundary setting, and a bid for connection.

When the parental response is to isolate the child, an instinctual psychological need of the child goes unmet. In fact, brain imaging shows that the experience of relational pain—like that caused by rejection—looks very similar to the experience of physical pain in terms of brain activity. you can't say this kind of shit without data. "looks like?" meaning what - there's activity in the same region? How much? What does that region "do"? What other experiences elicit that sort of "activity"?

On top of everything, time-outs are usually ineffective in accomplishing the goals of discipline: to change behavior and build skills. Parents may think that time-outs cause children to calm down and reflect on their behavior. But instead, time-outs frequently make children angrier and more dysregulated, leaving them even less able to control themselves or think about what they’ve done, and more focused on how mean their parents are to have punished them. I think this is an overly broad assertion. Certainly to true in my experience.

When children concentrate on their horrible luck to have such a mean, unfair mom or dad, they miss out on an opportunity to build insight, empathy, and problem-solving skills. Putting them in time-out deprives them of an opportunity to build skills that other types of discipline could focus on. Setting clear limits while emphasizing collaboration, conversation, and respect gives kids a chance to practice being active, empathic decision makers who are empowered to figure things out on their own.

Next time the need for discipline arises, parents might consider a “time-in”: forging a loving connection, such as sitting with the child and talking or comforting. Some time to calm down can be extremely valuable for children, teaching them how to pause and reflect on their behavior. Especially for younger children, such reflection is created in relationship, not in isolation. And all of this will make parenting a whole lot more effective and rewarding in the long run. Hey man, whatever works for your and your kid. There have been times where it has been abundantly clear that me sitting in a room with Sam is an effective intervention - but they are rare. Usually these occur when I've been out of town or he's been unable to get some undivided attention for an unreasonable amount of time (when we've had out of town guests for a long time, etc). But if the consequence for being a dick is alone time with their favorite person... guess what happens?

There's no science in this article. Which is typical for the AP crowd.

[downtoearth]

Sept 25, 2014 10:01:55 GMT -5 @lcap said:

Sept 25, 2014 9:35:44 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Yeah, I don't do traditional time outs for tantrums. For those, I will drag you into your room and leave you there. I would say carry because that's the intent but godalmighty fucking toddlers love the flail out. That attempted carry ends up being something between a drag and a roll every.single.time.

How would you get them to stay there though? That's the part that I could never figure out. He would just run out following me and escalate the behavior making everything worse.

Our kids did that - not very persistent though - we would continue to ignore them as they were out. Or I would start a conversation (fake) on the phone so it looked like I was busy with something else and giving THAT my attention and then drag/carry/walk them back to their room and say again, "Sorry you are so upset, come out when you've calmed down and can talk nicely."

I know with my middle kid we did that for 45 minutes one day. After that, he would pretty much stay most times, but not every time.  I use my imaginary phone calls to actively ignore the kids on the semi-regular.  Once I pretended to talk to Oprah about visiting her and her kid-less life b/c it was more therapeutic and helped me keep the calm rather than yell at the grumpy kid. I'm pretty Love&Logic/natural consequences and detached when disciplining. But not EVERYTHING works with every kid and I have 6+ hours away from them every work day. Do what works.

Oh and our youngest is a toddler (2 in a couple weeks) and he is all about hitting and not sharing right now... we time-out at home and they time-in at daycare.  He's not responding well to either right now.  He goes into time-out just fine, but it doesn't stop the behavior from happening again in 2 minutes.  Same with time-ins at daycare... happens again in 2 minutes.  So who knows?!

ETA: And I did not judge my friend who was home with her 3 kids and an oldest who was spirited... she had turned the lock around on the bedroom door and sometimes had to use it to keep the kiddo from destroying stuff and hurting the siblings.  I think it only took a month before they didn't need to lock tantrums in the room anymore.

[mominatrix]

I haven't read the whole article or thread, but to answer the question, I don't reject TO's out of hand, but they aren't the first thing we go to and they're definitly not the only thing... and when we do them, we don't call them time outs.


Usually, I try to get the kid to talk to me about wtf is going on, because most of the time it's not necessarily about the thing they're fighting about, if you kwim.

I find that changing up the situation before it gets too bad, calling them to me to talk to me, or physically taking them to another area to talk works wonders... but if they're hurting their sibling or the dog they get told to go to another space, because they clearly can't be among the rest of us. Go. Calm down. Get it together. When you're ready to be with us, come to me to talk about it.

Honestly, that's becoming something we're doing for things other than just hurting... like, yesterday, DD and I were trying to read for a half hour (she's supposed to do this for school, and finds it easier if somebody else is reading too. cool.) but DS couldn't be in the room without interrupting, asking for stuff, making weird noises, etc, etc etc. So he got sent out to go play elsewhere...

I don't see that as punishment, though... it was "we need this space to do this thing. what you're doing makes it impossible for us. you need to be elsewhere." He didn't love it, but he got it... and I think it's mostly because he's had that experience with our version of TO's




whatever, it's all fine. this works for us most of the time. but it's not perfect, nothing is. I'm not thinking people are abusive if they're into TO's. I know really well behaved kids whose parents are really into them... and some hellions whose parents are into them. And well behaved kids whose parents are very very anti TO Alfie Kohn types. And the reverse. Whatever works for you.

[UMaineTeach]

I think TO or TI is fine, whatever works for you. Behavior analysis is so individual, even if based on universal themes. You have to know your kid.

[Deleted]

I'm loving the assumptions in the article that kids don't ever ever ever do any manipulating ever.

There's a reason people stifle gasps of alarm when Preshus falls down and bumps her knee - because the kid knows how to get the rise and attention out of the adult and will do it.

[mrsukyankee]

Sept 25, 2014 8:09:03 GMT -5 wawa said:

My actual commentary -
this:

On top of everything, time-outs are usually ineffective in accomplishing the goals of discipline: to change behavior and build skills. Parents may think that time-outs cause children to calm down and reflect on their behavior. But instead, time-outs frequently make children angrier and more dysregulated, leaving them even less able to control themselves or think about what they’ve done, and more focused on how mean their parents are to have punished them.

is simply not true in my experience. I'm not sure how the people they've looked at are conducting their time outs, but when my friend's kids and my nieces and nephews have a freak out and get put in time out they usually go in screaming like wild banshees, calm down, and come out, have a nice little chat with mom or dad about how yes, they know it's not nice to [hit/throw things/steal toys from the baby/whatever] and that they're sorry and will play nice now and then they go back to playing nicely with their friends. If they came out just as sullen as when they went in they're hiding it REALLY well. And since they're 5, that seems unlikely.

It's really also how you couch time outs.  In my parenting class we teach that everyone needs time outs and that the parents also need to take them when they get out of control and want to start yelling (so modelling good self control).  The time out place should be something lovely and wonderful so the kid wants to go there to calm down.  Thus, they are learning how to regulate their emotions and be ready to talk with as much of their frontal lobe as is developed.  When people are upset (adults included), the decision making area of the frontal lobe gets disconnected and so the emotional centre tends to take over more.  Time outs used appropriately aren't seen as mean or disconnected.