Why I’m Not Really Here For Emma Watson’s Feminism Speech

[bluestreet]

I didn't know I could love BGD more, but yep, I can. I bolded the parts that made me literally nod my head over and over. (lots of links in the original post)

www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/09/im-really-emma-watsons-feminism-speech-u-n/

09/24/14
by Mia McKenzie

Actor Emma Watson, of Harry Potter movie fame, is a new Goodwill Ambassador for UN Women and she spoke at the UN on Saturday to launch the HeForShe campaign, which aims to mobilize men to end gender inequality somehow (the campaign doesn’t seem to call men to any particular action of any sort). The campaign wants men to make gender equality their issue, too, and Ms. Watson extended “a formal invitation” to men to do so.

Some of the mainstream (white) feminist interwebs are all abuzz because, according to said mainstream (white) feminist interwebs, it was all kinds of awesome and really, really next-level or something. Yes, some of it was very good. Ms. Watson talked about how she came into feminism herself, after experiences such as being sexualized by the media at age 14. For the first few minutes, the speech is awesome.

Then, around the 6 minute mark, it gets…less good.

I’d call myself a fan of Emma Watson. I like her. I always have. I’m a Harry Potter fan (despite its issues with gender inequality), and I’ve liked her a lot in other stuff, too. I still like her. I also know that she means well in her feminist work, and that her intentions at the UN were great. Cool. Excellent. None of that is the issue here.

The issue is that the message Ms. Watson delivered is problematic in many ways.

In her speech to the UN, Ms. Watson said:

How can we affect change in the world when only half of it is invited or feel welcome to participate in the conversation? Men—I would like to take this opportunity to extend your formal invitation. Gender equality is your issue, too.
Here, she seems to suggest that the reason men aren’t involved in the fight for gender equality is that women simply haven’t invited them and, in fact, have been unwelcoming. Women haven’t given men a formal invitation, so they haven’t joined in. It’s not because, you know, men benefit HUGELY (socially, economically, politically, etc. infinity) from gender inequality and therefore have much less incentive to support its dismantling. It’s not because of the prevalence of misogyny the entire world over. It’s just that no one’s asked. OMG, why didn’t any of us think to ask?!

This is an absurd thing to suggest. Women have been trying to get men to care about oppression of women since…always. Men have never been overwhelmingly interested in fighting that fight, because it requires them giving up power and all evidence suggests that’s not their super-fave thing. Share a link about gender equality? Sure! Count me in! Give up real power in real ways? Nope, not really.


Ms. Watson went on to say:

I’ve seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don’t have the benefit of equality, either.

We don’t often talk about men being imprisoned by gender stereotypes but I can see that they are and that when they are free, things will change for women as a natural consequence.

This message is flawed and unfortunate, as well. Telling men that they should care about gender inequality because of how much it hurts them, centralizes men and their well-being in a movement built by women for our survival in a world that degrades and dehumanizes us daily. This is problematic for the same reason telling white people that they should end racism because racism “holds us all back as a society, so eradicating it will help you, too,” is problematic.

Firstly, because even if that’s true, it does nothing to create solidarity. I have never met a white person who decided to take on anti-racism work because of the negative effects of racism on white people. Literally, never. And I don’t think I’ve ever met a man who genuinely supports feminist ideals because of the ways they benefit men first. If I did know people like this, I wouldn’t like them. I’d question why the often brutal oppression of people of color and women and especially women of color wasn’t enough to get them interested, but having an epiphany about the ways men and/or white people are kinda also hurt by these constructs because “something something society and also men should be able to cry, too” made them jump right on board.

Secondly, because it ignores just how much men do benefit from gender inequality. (They really do, Emma!)

Allow me to offer you just a couple statistics from this side of the pond:

1 out of every 5 American women has reported experiencing rape in her lifetime. For American men, it’s 1 in 71.

White (cis-gender) American women earn 78% of what their white male counterparts earn. Black (cis-gender) American women earn 89% of what their Black male counterparts earn and 64% of what their white male counterparts earn. Latina (cis-gender) women earn 89% of what their Latino male counterparts earn and 53% of what their white male counterparts earn.

Only 4.8% of Fortune 500 CEO’s are women.

Of course, the gender pay gap exists everywhere in the world, including the UK. And so does rape.

Saying that men don’t have the benefit of equality creates a false narrative that we’re all hurt in the same ways and at the same degrees by the evils of gender inequality, and that no one’s really benefiting, and that’s simply not true. Emma Watson being sexualized by the media at 14 years old isn’t the same as her male friends not being so comfortable expressing their feelings. It’s a false equivalency. The ways that gender inequality is bad for men and boys are very, very different from the ways it’s bad for women and girls. Namely, it oppresses and abuses women and girls in nearly every facet of life.

Thirdly, the people with the most privilege are constantly being centralized this way in conversations about oppression and it needs to stop. This is why “marriage equality” is the mainstream LGBTQ rights issue, rather than homeless queer youth or struggling elders, rather than invisibilization and erasure of queer and trans people of color. The face of the “marriage equality” movement is mostly white, male and well-off. The people with the most privilege are centered in the discussion, while the people who are the most oppressed are an afterthought, at best. De-centralizing women in conversations about gender inequality isn’t good.

Ms. Watson also said:

I want men to take up this mantle. So their daughters, sisters, and mothers can be free from prejudice…
Screen Shot 2014-09-24 at 8.07.44 AMThe underlying message here is that women deserve equity and equality because of our relationships to men. Continuing to re-enforce the idea that men should respect women and fight for women’s equality because mother/sister/daughter/whatever perpetuates the idea that women don’t already deserve those things based solely on our status as human beings. It encourages men to think of women always and only in relation to themselves, as if our pseudo-humanity is only an after-thought of men’s real humanity. The truth is that women are whole, complete people, regardless of our status in the lives of men. This is what men should hear, over and over again. This is what everyone should hear, every day.

I think one thing Ms. Watson was kinda sorta but not really getting at was the idea that femininity, whether expressed by women or men (or genderqueer people, I guess, but who knows because they don’t exist in this UN speech or the “HeForShe” campaign), is what gets the short end of the stick in the world. Femininity is seen as weakness and is hated and abused. That’s valid and very, very important, but she didn’t say any of that, doesn’t appear to have a solid analysis of that yet, and it’s a reach to suggest that’s what will come across to most people who listen to her speech.

So, can we please stop trying to make Emma Watson the new feminist icon of the universe? She’s not there yet. She’s still learning, I think, just like Beyoncé, who, by the way, rarely even gets the benefit of the doubt from white feminists, let alone hailed as feminist queen of all things, when her feminist expressions are less than perfect. (Imagine if Beyoncé got up at the UN and gave a speech that centered men in the fight for gender equality. The white mainstream feminist skies would rain down hellfire upon us all. Well, some of us, anyway.)

I hope that as Emma Watson continues to grow into her feminism she’ll chuck these unfortunate approaches. But, frankly, it’ll take a lot more than that for me to see her as the “game-changing” feminist she’s being called. Where’s her analysis of racial justice and its necessity in ending gender inequality? What does she know about misogynoir? Does she understand that wealthy white women like her are often oppressors of women of color and/or poor women in the world? Where’s her understanding of transfeminism? Can she explain to the UN, or anyone else, why violence against trans women needs to be centered in our work against misogyny? Does she know and can she articulate that ableism is woven into not only gender inequality, but every form of oppression that exists? And, importantly, does she understand that as a white woman she is granted access and taken seriously by mainstream feminism in ways that a woman of color wouldn’t be and why, then, it’s necessary for her to step aside and make room for women of color to be heard if gender inequality is ever to be eradicated? Because any real “game-changing” feminist needs to.

I personally think it would be pretty cool if the woman who used to be the girl who played Hermione turned out to be a kick-ass, game-changing feminist. For me, that requires a real kick-ass, game-changing analysis and approach. Ms. Watson doesn’t have one yet.

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[IIOY]

This is exhausting.

[bluestreet]

The article or the topic? I haven't been on the boards much, so apologies if this is a horse being beaten to death and the contents have been well-covered. I did a search and hadn't seen this linked.

[Deleted]

In theory, I get why parts of her speech were problematic but shit, we have to come at this from all avenues. Sure, I would love a man to just wake up and suddenly see what a fucked up world this is for women and itch to change it, yanno, all on their own accord and shit.

But if you need to picture your mother, your daughter, your sister in order to do that, then fine, come on over to the damned party. I'll pour you some lemonade and tell you all about the inherent inequality you never considered before you had a daughter.

And you know what? It's misguided if not flat out dishonest to say that whites haven't rethought their previously held assumptions about race and racism because of their proximity to black folks. They have and they do. There are a lot of old white people who are a lot less racist because they have black grandchildren.

Also, I felt some kind of way that this piece was mostly fuck Emma Watson and her poor misguided self and summed up with "give me money."

And she mentioned Bey. I mean seriously, Bey? BEY??? FUCKING BEYONCE? No, lady. No, you can't do all that.

That being said, the UN needs some ambassadors of color and of varying socioeconomic backgrounds. I nominate Lupita and Janelle Monae.

[summer]

She gave a good speech. It wasn't the first good speech and it won't be the last one. She will not be forever and always The Feminist One We've Been Waiting For. She got more press than some, maybe because she's white, maybe because she was in Harry Potter, maybe because she's a role model, maybe because she's British,....I don't know. I don't see any reason to knock her for it. She didn't do anything to anyone.

And my first thought was, "why do we need men?" and then immediately, I was like, "well, yeah, I think we kinda do need to get men on board because otherwise a decent amount of them just stand off to the side or stand in the way." Particularly if you are thinking globally because I mean, yes, in the West equality is at least up for discussion, but there are many parts of the world that a woman doesn't have the rights of a flea and it would be silly to say men aren't needed for a change in that way of thinking to occur.

[summer]

Sept 25, 2014 12:47:04 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

In theory, I get why parts of her speech were problematic but shit, we have to come at this from all avenues. Sure, I would love a man to just wake up and suddenly see what a fucked up world this is for women and itch to change it, yanno, all on their own accord and shit.

But if you need to picture your mother, your daughter, your sister in order to do that, then fine, come on over to the damned party. I'll pour you some lemonade and tell you all about the inherent inequality you never considered before you had a daughter.

And you know what? It's misguided if not flat out dishonest to say that whites haven't rethought their previously held assumptions about race and racism because of their proximity to black folks. They have and they do. There are a lot of old white people who are a lot less racist because they have black grandchildren.

Also, I felt some kind of way that this piece was mostly fuck Emma Watson and her poor misguided self and summed up with "give me money."

And she mentioned Bey. I mean seriously, Bey? BEY??? FUCKING BEYONCE? No, lady. No, you can't do all that.

That being said, the UN needs some ambassadors of color and of varying socioeconomic backgrounds. I nominate Lupita and Janelle Monae.

Janelle Monae should be MUCH MUCH MUCH more famous than she is!!!

[cattledogkisses]

Sept 25, 2014 12:47:04 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

In theory, I get why parts of her speech were problematic but shit, we have to come at this from all avenues. Sure, I would love a man to just wake up and suddenly see what a fucked up world this is for women and itch to change it, yanno, all on their own accord and shit.

But if you need to picture your mother, your daughter, your sister in order to do that, then fine, come on over to the damned party. I'll pour you some lemonade and tell you all about the inherent inequality you never considered before you had a daughter.

And you know what? It's misguided if not flat out dishonest to say that whites haven't rethought their previously held assumptions about race and racism because of their proximity to black folks. They have and they do. There are a lot of old white people who are a lot less racist because they have black grandchildren.

Also, I felt some kind of way that this piece was mostly fuck Emma Watson and her poor misguided self and summed up with "give me money."

And she mentioned Bey. I mean seriously, Bey? BEY??? FUCKING BEYONCE? No, lady. No, you can't do all that.

That being said, the UN needs some ambassadors of color and of varying socioeconomic backgrounds. I nominate Lupita and Janelle Monae.

You said what I was feeling, only probably much more eloquently, lol. 

If men need to picture the women that they care about in their own lives to put a face to this issue and have that lightbulb moment, then I'm ok with that. 

[elleblue]

Can I add Jill Scott to that potential UN Ambassador list?

[Deleted]

And now I'm feeling some kind of way that I've spent the better part of the day discussing WOC and Feminism only to talk smack about a woman who is discussing WOC and Feminism.

I guess I just don't feel that Emma Watson deserves to get the side eye for talking about feminism from her perspective. I think the guys who would listen to her need to hear the message she put out there even if it only puts a small seed in their minds to give the topic more serious thought.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 13:06:30 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Can I add Jill Scott to that potential UN Ambassador list?

Also, Phylicia Rashad. 

[aurora]

BGD makes some good points. But I come away from reading this with a sinking damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't feeling. When feminists don't make efforts to draw men into the fold, we are labeled as man-haters, which doesn't help our cause (not to mention is a flat-out falsehood). When we do, we're criticized like this.

I also don't think that enhancing gender equality is a simple plus/minus where our gains equal men's losses. Sure, of course men have benefited from oppressing women over the centuries around the world. But enhancing opportunities for women has been shown over and over to enhance health and happiness of all members of communities, including men. That's why for example microfinance organizations like the Grameen Foundation and Kiva lend predominantly to women. If we frame feminism in such a way that men feel threatened as a whole, we're never going to get anywhere.

[cville]

Can we please not rake feminists over the coals when they publicly say some feminist shit? KTHXBAI.

[IIOY]

Sept 25, 2014 12:47:04 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

In theory, I get why parts of her speech were problematic but shit, we have to come at this from all avenues. Sure, I would love a man to just wake up and suddenly see what a fucked up world this is for women and itch to change it, yanno, all on their own accord and shit.

But if you need to picture your mother, your daughter, your sister in order to do that, then fine, come on over to the damned party. I'll pour you some lemonade and tell you all about the inherent inequality you never considered before you had a daughter.

And you know what? It's misguided if not flat out dishonest to say that whites haven't rethought their previously held assumptions about race and racism because of their proximity to black folks. They have and they do. There are a lot of old white people who are a lot less racist because they have black grandchildren.

Also, I felt some kind of way that this piece was mostly fuck Emma Watson and her poor misguided self and summed up with "give me money."

And she mentioned Bey. I mean seriously, Bey? BEY??? FUCKING BEYONCE? No, lady. No, you can't do all that.

That being said, the UN needs some ambassadors of color and of varying socioeconomic backgrounds. I nominate Lupita and Janelle Monae.

Thank you.  I read this piece and all I could do was have a Joe-Pesci-before-he's-had-a-Snickers moment.

[Deleted]

I think in many cases, feminism starts at home. It takes raising children of a feminist mindset, teaching them to challenge cultural norms, to embrace gender equality in all spheres. And most of us cannot do that without bringing men into that conversation.

[Deleted]

I do like that this piece is making me think about what I need to see when I want to call someone a feminist.

There has got to be some kind of middle ground between "all vaginas are feminists" and card carrying pro-choice ride or die only feminists.

Because I don't think of Bey is a feminist. Being an accomplished female does not make one a feminist. And yet, I can't put my finger on exactly why I don't consider her one. I'll think about it.

Meanwhile, someone read this and tell me what you think. www.celebitchy.com/389166/chloe_moretz_on_non-feminists_they_dont_understood_what_feminism_is/

“I don’t think they really understood what feminism is. It’s a right. Feminism, to me, is standing up for everything that someone else has already done for you. My mom has overcome so much in her life. She makes me want to stand up for myself. Stand up to the studio heads who try to tell me that I can’t have blonde hair; they want brown hair. Or I need bigger boobs, or I need to work out. Or I’m too skinny, so, like, ‘Eat a cheeseburger.’ I stand up for myself every day of my life. I grew up in a family of four boys. I’m, like, a born feminist. I’ve been a feminist since I was four years old.”

Because I'm all about the feminism being standing up for everything someone else has already done for you. It's why tumblr anti-feminists hurt my soul. But some of this other stuff she blathers about . . . I mean I don't know.

[eclaires]

Sept 25, 2014 12:47:04 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

In theory, I get why parts of her speech were problematic but shit, we have to come at this from all avenues. Sure, I would love a man to just wake up and suddenly see what a fucked up world this is for women and itch to change it, yanno, all on their own accord and shit.

But if you need to picture your mother, your daughter, your sister in order to do that, then fine, come on over to the damned party. I'll pour you some lemonade and tell you all about the inherent inequality you never considered before you had a daughter.

And you know what? It's misguided if not flat out dishonest to say that whites haven't rethought their previously held assumptions about race and racism because of their proximity to black folks. They have and they do. There are a lot of old white people who are a lot less racist because they have black grandchildren.

Also, I felt some kind of way that this piece was mostly fuck Emma Watson and her poor misguided self and summed up with "give me money."

And she mentioned Bey. I mean seriously, Bey? BEY??? FUCKING BEYONCE? No, lady. No, you can't do all that.

That being said, the UN needs some ambassadors of color and of varying socioeconomic backgrounds. I nominate Lupita and Janelle Monae.

Yes!

But seriously, how often do people on this board alone learn from discussions of privilege and having things pointed out to them by people from different backgrounds and different experiences.

I'm biased because I absolutely think men (and boys) need to be on board this fight. I've said before that raising my son to be a feminist is something that I feel can really make a difference.

Personally, I don't think less of my husband or dismiss his participation or feminist views because he's only recently realized some things since marrying me and listening to my rants and having a daughter of his own. We all grow and change through our experiences and excluding people because they only recently had their eyes opened for whatever reason is counterproductive.

[meshaliuknits]

Sept 25, 2014 13:11:08 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Sept 25, 2014 13:06:30 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Can I add Jill Scott to that potential UN Ambassador list?

Also, Phylicia Rashad. 

Clarie Huxstable is awesome in almost all ways.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 13:32:50 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Sept 25, 2014 13:11:08 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Also, Phylicia Rashad. 

Clarie Huxstable is awesome in almost all ways.

And so is Debbie Allen. Someone raised those women right.

[cattledogkisses]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but what are the gender inequality issues in Harry Potter that the writer references?

ETA:  I only read the first four books, so maybe this comes up later.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 13:43:33 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but what are the gender inequality issues in Harry Potter that the writer references?

Hermione is the true bad ass, savior of the world but it's all Harry Potter all the time. At least that's the theory I've heard a few times . . . that I sort of agree with lol. She's the smart one.


I think the thing to remember is that Emma Watson is the UN Ambassador, not the US Ambassador. So we keep thinking about her in terms of the wage gap and other western targets of feminism. But I think the UN in general and judging partially by her speech is looking to get men in their 20's and 30's to care about gender equality on a global scale. Rape culture in India for example.

[wawa]

Sept 25, 2014 13:43:33 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but what are the gender inequality issues in Harry Potter that the writer references?

ETA:  I only read the first four books, so maybe this comes up later.

I would assume it's because the majority of the main characters are male?   Maybe?

[wawa]

Sept 25, 2014 13:49:35 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

there is actually some feminist argument about Hermione and Amy Pollers character on Parks and Rec but i have seen or read them to understand the argument.

but it is bacially, if i get this correct, that both characters start out as annoying as shit, younger sister types that you only care about b/c you can join in with everyone else hating her. over time she evolves out of the sister role and into a smart, independent chick you can actually tolerate. but you have to hate her first. or something.

there's also the fact that she gets more physically attractive as she gets more likeable. Which...I've never really thought about but is kinda hmmm.

[bluestreet]

Feminists have been trying to get men on the gender equality train since at least 1792 when Mary Wollstonecraft urged men to let women have educations so they (women) could better educate their sons. Beyond the fact that trying to "sweeten the deal" for men's participation in the movement toward gender equality is repugnant to me on principle, I just don't think it's been very effective.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 25, 2014 13:49:35 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

there is actually some feminist argument about Hermione and Amy Pollers character on Parks and Rec but i have seen or read them to understand the argument.

but it is bacially, if i get this correct, that both characters start out as annoying as shit, younger sister types that you only care about b/c you can join in with everyone else hating her. over time she evolves out of the sister role and into a smart, independent chick you can actually tolerate. but you have to hate her first. or something.

I would say this is entirely because in the books they grow up. The girls go from having cooties to having breasts and being objects of hormonal lust. It's a normal progression.

[2curlydogs]

I am here:

Sept 25, 2014 13:17:38 GMT -5 cville said:

Can we please not rake feminists over the coals when they publicly say some feminist shit? KTHXBAI.

and here:

Sept 25, 2014 13:23:28 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

I think in many cases, feminism starts at home. It takes raising children of a feminist mindset, teaching them to challenge cultural norms, to embrace gender equality in all spheres. And most of us cannot do that without bringing men into that conversation.

Because we aren't going to "solve" gender inequality without getting men on board. They hold all the fucking cards, after all. Globally that's even more difficult than here in the US. And here in the US, we have hit a fucking brick wall and are, in fact, rolling backward down the hill thanks to assholes and dick quotes about the 'life of the mother'.

So if I have to woman-splain how gender inequality affects them to them by appealing to their self-centered assholishness, then that's something I'm gonna do. 

[bluestreet]

Sept 25, 2014 13:28:46 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Sept 25, 2014 12:47:04 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

In theory, I get why parts of her speech were problematic but shit, we have to come at this from all avenues. Sure, I would love a man to just wake up and suddenly see what a fucked up world this is for women and itch to change it, yanno, all on their own accord and shit.

But if you need to picture your mother, your daughter, your sister in order to do that, then fine, come on over to the damned party. I'll pour you some lemonade and tell you all about the inherent inequality you never considered before you had a daughter.

And you know what? It's misguided if not flat out dishonest to say that whites haven't rethought their previously held assumptions about race and racism because of their proximity to black folks. They have and they do. There are a lot of old white people who are a lot less racist because they have black grandchildren.

Also, I felt some kind of way that this piece was mostly fuck Emma Watson and her poor misguided self and summed up with "give me money."

And she mentioned Bey. I mean seriously, Bey? BEY??? FUCKING BEYONCE? No, lady. No, you can't do all that.

That being said, the UN needs some ambassadors of color and of varying socioeconomic backgrounds. I nominate Lupita and Janelle Monae.

Yes!

But seriously, how often do people on this board alone learn from discussions of privilege and having things pointed out to them by people from different backgrounds and different experiences.

I'm biased because I absolutely think men (and boys) need to be on board this fight. I've said before that raising my son to be a feminist is something that I feel can really make a difference.

Personally, I don't think less of my husband or dismiss his participation or feminist views because he's only recently realized some things since marrying me and listening to my rants and having a daughter of his own. We all grow and change through our experiences and excluding people because they only recently had their eyes opened for whatever reason is counterproductive.

The author's point isn't that men shouldn't be part of the movement toward gender equality. Rather, that men should be involved to help women. As she writes, "Telling men that they should care about gender inequality because of how much it hurts them, centralizes men and their well-being in a movement built by women for our survival in a world that degrades and dehumanizes us daily."

[IIOY]

Sept 25, 2014 13:55:59 GMT -5 bluestreet said:

Feminists have been trying to get men on the gender equality train since at least 1792 when Mary Wollstonecraft urged men to let women have educations so they (women) could better educate their sons. Beyond the fact that trying to "sweeten the deal" for men's participation in the movement toward gender equality is repugnant to me on principle, I just don't that it's been very effective.

So what's the alternative?

Whether we like it or not, men are here to stay. I would rather engage men to bring them into the conversation than alienate them and shut down all conversation. 

[IIOY]

Sept 25, 2014 14:00:22 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

I am here:

Sept 25, 2014 13:17:38 GMT -5 cville said:

Can we please not rake feminists over the coals when they publicly say some feminist shit? KTHXBAI.

and here:

Sept 25, 2014 13:23:28 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

I think in many cases, feminism starts at home. It takes raising children of a feminist mindset, teaching them to challenge cultural norms, to embrace gender equality in all spheres. And most of us cannot do that without bringing men into that conversation.

Because we aren't going to "solve" gender inequality without getting men on board. They hold all the fucking cards, after all. Globally that's even more difficult than here in the US. And here in the US, we have hit a fucking brick wall and are, in fact, rolling backward down the hill thanks to assholes and dick quotes about the 'life of the mother'.

So if I have to woman-splain how gender inequality affects them to them by appealing to their self-centered assholishness, then that's something I'm gonna do. 

LOLOLOL Yes! I love this so much.

[bluestreet]

Sept 25, 2014 14:00:22 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

I am here:

Sept 25, 2014 13:17:38 GMT -5 cville said:

Can we please not rake feminists over the coals when they publicly say some feminist shit? KTHXBAI.

and here:

Sept 25, 2014 13:23:28 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

I think in many cases, feminism starts at home. It takes raising children of a feminist mindset, teaching them to challenge cultural norms, to embrace gender equality in all spheres. And most of us cannot do that without bringing men into that conversation.

Because we aren't going to "solve" gender inequality without getting men on board. They hold all the fucking cards, after all. Globally that's even more difficult than here in the US. And here in the US, we have hit a fucking brick wall and are, in fact, rolling backward down the hill thanks to assholes and dick quotes about the 'life of the mother'.

So if I have to woman-splain how gender inequality affects them to them by appealing to their self-centered assholishness, then that's something I'm gonna do. 

I appreciate what you're saying; I'm just wondering how effective that even is. Is telling men that we need to create a world where boys can cry going to motivate them to work toward a society where they do not have the edge in everything? Like, I give you your tears, you give me my wage parity?

I'm not providing a great alternative, and I do realize that a party line that consists of "Fuck you, I want my equal rights" may not be the best tactic. 

If anything, I think the best form of pandering comes in the form of "Just think about your mothers, sisters, wives, daughters...", which is bothersome, but at least it maintains focus on women. 

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 14:02:21 GMT -5 bluestreet said:

The author's point isn't that men shouldn't be part of the movement toward gender equality. Rather, that men should be involved to help women. As she writes, "Telling men that they should care about gender inequality because of how much it hurts them, centralizes men and their well-being in a movement built by women for our survival in a world that degrades and dehumanizes us daily."

I don't think her speech centralized men at all. It had more of a look, you fuckers are hurting women. You just are, deal with it. You're hurting anonymous women you don't care about and your hurting the women you love and care for in your personal life. As an aside, you're also kind of hurting yourself. Not in the same wide scale you're hurting women but shit, you are. So whichever of those things makes you think harder about this topic, you just do that then.

I think it was an especially nice touch given how butthurt men have been getting lately and too many of them think feminism hurts them. I cannot remember who I should attribute this to but they mentioned that current misogynist thought treats feminism as a zero sum game in which men will ultimately lose. Her point wasn't that you should support feminism because men are hurting but that everyone benefits from feminism.