Honestly, I think this is the problem. Everyone seems to believe this. I think there is some serious misunderstanding about what Ebola is and how it spreads. And it's lead to people being careless about how to deal with it even on a medical professional level.
Part of the problem is ignorance and casual racism. The other part imo is that a lot of the illnesses we don't see in America or other more developed nations are the kind that are alleviated by access to clean drinking water, fairly decent medical systems, etc. So I'm not really surprised that a lot of people think Ebola is similar to cholera, dysentery, etc.
I wasn't originally worried about Ebola spreading in the US because apparently I was extremely naive about what kind of equipment nurses/hospitals had access to. I mean between movies (yeah I know, not reliable) and the pictures from the handling of the patients flown in that were already sick...I guess I just assumed nurses/doctors would be wearing hazmat suits and that they would be going through a decontamination spray when leaving the room. It never occured to me that we wouldn't have the necessary protective equipment available.
I mean at this rate medical professionals would be better off if they followed that one woman who treated her entire family while wrapping herself in trash bags/gloves.
This is where I was, but I do think part of the problem is casual racism. If you don't have an actual practical reason you think the US is immune from what's happened in W Africa (ie better equipment, better facilities, better healthcare), then you're basically saying America is better than Africa by default. And if you know those practical reasons, you put them into place.
Also maybe we already talked about this but I am amazed that his family was able to stay symptom free. I wonder did he isolate himself? Did they not use the same toilet as him? I am glad they seem to still be fine, but I am also sort of amazed.
Or maybe they will figure out what the nurses did procedure wise that made them more in danger of becoming infected. Well you know besides not wearing the proper gear. I think I read that the nurses were aspirating him and inserting catheters.
I think the nurses had to change diapers and stuff too. I am not sure he was at that stage when he was at home.
Also maybe we already talked about this but I am amazed that his family was able to stay symptom free. I wonder did he isolate himself? Did they not use the same toilet as him? I am glad they seem to still be fine, but I am also sort of amazed.
Or maybe they will figure out what the nurses did procedure wise that made them more in danger of becoming infected. Well you know besides not wearing the proper gear. I think I read that the nurses were aspirating him and inserting catheters.
I feel like I've been typing this in every Ebola thread - and maybe just to make myself feel more confident about the situation - but I think this is very telling about the ease of transmission. Same with the nurse in Spain. She was symptomatic for 6+ days before being diagnosed and quarantined and so far it seems no one contracted it from her (even her husband).
As I understand it the virus is much more highly concentrated in your system in the late stages of the disease, making it much easier to contract.
Post by weardogbride on Oct 16, 2014 9:36:58 GMT -5
Local news is reporting that Dallas county commissioners are expected to call for a state of emergency at 2pm today. No one seems to know what this means. It seems as though hysteria is starting and I'm concerned for our economy. Can you imagine if we get to 50 or 100 cases?! Holy shit, the panic. www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26798025/dallas-leaders-prepare-to-request-state-disaster-declaration
Local news is reporting that Dallas county commissioners are expected to call for a state of emergency at 2pm today. No one seems to know what this means. It seems as though hysteria is starting and I'm concerned for our economy. Can you imagine if we get to 50 or 100 cases?! Holy shit, the panic. www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26798025/dallas-leaders-prepare-to-request-state-disaster-declaration
I think that this just means that they want/need more money/support to handle the situation. Getting it declared a state of emergency will help with that.
I feel like I've been typing this in every Ebola thread - and maybe just to make myself feel more confident about the situation - but I think this is very telling about the ease of transmission. Same with the nurse in Spain. She was symptomatic for 6+ days before being diagnosed and quarantined and so far it seems no one contracted it from her (even her husband).
As I understand it the virus is much more highly concentrated in your system in the late stages of the disease, making it much easier to contract.
Exactly. In the early stages most people don't infect others. That's why caregivers are most likely to be infected--especially the caregivers who are present at the end stages of life when bodily fluids are profuse. If you look at a large sample of cases, survivors very rarely infect others--because they don't often reach that deep level of disease. That's why the family is unlikely to be infected and people on a flight are unlikely to be infected. By the point you are highly infectious it would be vey difficult to board a plane--physically speaking.
And this would make sense since David carried a dying patient to the hospital in Liberia. She must have also been in the late stages of the disease.
Post by downtoearth on Oct 16, 2014 10:15:28 GMT -5
Did you guys already discuss the fact that this nurse did call into the CDC with her 99.5 temp and was NOT told to stay home? The CDC says their protocol was that they told her, but the facts are that she called in and reported the temp and the CDC let it slip through their fingers b/c it wasn't at the 100.4 threshold. Basically, she followed protocol and the CDC person she reported to, did not stop her.
Plus, I think she is black. So, I would doubt she was racist and thought it was an African problem, but I haven't read this whole thread, so that may not be what HBC and others were getting at.
Update at 8:30 p.m.: Dallas Ebola patient Amber Vinson contacted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention before boarding the Frontier Airlines flight Monday because she had a slight fever, a federal government spokesperson told NBC News Wednesday.
Vinson was running a 99.5 degree fever, but was not told that she could not fly, the spokesman told NBC News. When she called in, staff looked at the CDC website for guidance. At the time, the category for “uncertain risk” said a person could fly commercially if their temperature was below the threshold of 100.4 degrees.
The second Dallas nurse diagnosed with Ebola shouldn't have traveled on a commercial flight due to her exposure to the virus prior to her diagnosis, said Tom Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Did you guys already discuss the fact that this nurse did call into the CDC with her 99.5 temp and was NOT told to stay home? The CDC says their protocol was that they told her, but the facts are that she called in and reported the temp and the CDC let it slip through their fingers b/c it wasn't at the 100.4 threshold. Basically, she followed protocol and the CDC person she reported to, did not stop her.
Plus, I think she is black. So, I would doubt she was racist and thought it was an African problem, but I haven't read this whole thread, so that may not be what HBC and others were getting at.
Update at 8:30 p.m.: Dallas Ebola patient Amber Vinson contacted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention before boarding the Frontier Airlines flight Monday because she had a slight fever, a federal government spokesperson told NBC News Wednesday.
Vinson was running a 99.5 degree fever, but was not told that she could not fly, the spokesman told NBC News. When she called in, staff looked at the CDC website for guidance. At the time, the category for “uncertain risk” said a person could fly commercially if their temperature was below the threshold of 100.4 degrees.
The second Dallas nurse diagnosed with Ebola shouldn't have traveled on a commercial flight due to her exposure to the virus prior to her diagnosis, said Tom Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
I have not seen any confirmation from the CDC Agency that they knew she had treated duncan and had this temp and told her she could fly. All reports are based from an anonymous source that she reported her temp. And the source is anonymous-not agency spokespeople. I need more before I condemn the CDC for this. If the CDC Agency (not an unnamed source) says she told them she had treated duncan and she had this temp and they still let her fly I will absolutely think they effed up, but I have not seen that yet. Even if they say she called and said she had a temp but did not disclose she had treated duncan I will not be side-eying that much, although you would think CDC Would have a list of potential contacts that they could have cross-checked.
Did you guys already discuss the fact that this nurse did call into the CDC with her 99.5 temp and was NOT told to stay home? The CDC says their protocol was that they told her, but the facts are that she called in and reported the temp and the CDC let it slip through their fingers b/c it wasn't at the 100.4 threshold. Basically, she followed protocol and the CDC person she reported to, did not stop her.
Plus, I think she is black. So, I would doubt she was racist and thought it was an African problem, but I haven't read this whole thread, so that may not be what HBC and others were getting at.
Update at 8:30 p.m.: Dallas Ebola patient Amber Vinson contacted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention before boarding the Frontier Airlines flight Monday because she had a slight fever, a federal government spokesperson told NBC News Wednesday.
Vinson was running a 99.5 degree fever, but was not told that she could not fly, the spokesman told NBC News. When she called in, staff looked at the CDC website for guidance. At the time, the category for “uncertain risk” said a person could fly commercially if their temperature was below the threshold of 100.4 degrees.
The second Dallas nurse diagnosed with Ebola shouldn't have traveled on a commercial flight due to her exposure to the virus prior to her diagnosis, said Tom Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
I find it interesting that all news stories on this say "she was not told that she could not fly". More information may come out to show the CDC messed this up, but to me there is a big difference between not being told not to do something, and being told it's ok for you to do something. And I'm wondering why the media keep carefully wording it that way.
Did you guys already discuss the fact that this nurse did call into the CDC with her 99.5 temp and was NOT told to stay home? The CDC says their protocol was that they told her, but the facts are that she called in and reported the temp and the CDC let it slip through their fingers b/c it wasn't at the 100.4 threshold. Basically, she followed protocol and the CDC person she reported to, did not stop her.
Plus, I think she is black. So, I would doubt she was racist and thought it was an African problem, but I haven't read this whole thread, so that may not be what HBC and others were getting at.
Update at 8:30 p.m.: Dallas Ebola patient Amber Vinson contacted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention before boarding the Frontier Airlines flight Monday because she had a slight fever, a federal government spokesperson told NBC News Wednesday.
Vinson was running a 99.5 degree fever, but was not told that she could not fly, the spokesman told NBC News. When she called in, staff looked at the CDC website for guidance. At the time, the category for “uncertain risk” said a person could fly commercially if their temperature was below the threshold of 100.4 degrees.
The second Dallas nurse diagnosed with Ebola shouldn't have traveled on a commercial flight due to her exposure to the virus prior to her diagnosis, said Tom Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
I have not seen any confirmation from the CDC Agency that they knew she had treated duncan and had this temp and told her she could fly. All reports are based from an anonymous source that she reported her temp. And the source is anonymous-not agency spokespeople. I need more before I condemn the CDC for this. If the CDC Agency (not an unnamed source) says she told them she had treated duncan and she had this temp and they still let her fly I will absolutely think they effed up, but I have not seen that yet. Even if they say she called and said she had a temp but did not disclose she had treated duncan I will not be side-eying that much, although you would think CDC Would have a list of potential contacts that they could have cross-checked.
True but all accounts and quotes from Tom Freidman of the CDC says "she should not have flown" so I think this morning's quotes like this one below show that the CDC looked at their accounts again and realized they probably screwed up or couldn't actually STOP her from flying without getting the local/city health department involved.
“Although she (Vinson) did not report any symptoms and she did not meet the fever threshold of 100.4, she did report at that time she took her temperature and found it to be 99.5,” said CDC Director Tom Frieden. Her temperature coupled with the fact that she had been exposed to the virus should have prevented her from getting on the plane, he said. “I don’t think that changes the level of risk of people around her. She did not vomit, she was not bleeding, so the level of risk of people around her would be extremely low.”
I have not seen any confirmation from the CDC Agency that they knew she had treated duncan and had this temp and told her she could fly. All reports are based from an anonymous source that she reported her temp. And the source is anonymous-not agency spokespeople. I need more before I condemn the CDC for this. If the CDC Agency (not an unnamed source) says she told them she had treated duncan and she had this temp and they still let her fly I will absolutely think they effed up, but I have not seen that yet. Even if they say she called and said she had a temp but did not disclose she had treated duncan I will not be side-eying that much, although you would think CDC Would have a list of potential contacts that they could have cross-checked.
True but all accounts and quotes from Tom Freidman of the CDC says "she should not have flown" so I think this morning's quotes like this one below show that the CDC looked at their accounts again and realized they probably screwed up or couldn't actually STOP her from flying without getting the local/city health department involved.
“Although she (Vinson) did not report any symptoms and she did not meet the fever threshold of 100.4, she did report at that time she took her temperature and found it to be 99.5,” said CDC Director Tom Frieden. Her temperature coupled with the fact that she had been exposed to the virus should have prevented her from getting on the plane, he said. “I don’t think that changes the level of risk of people around her. She did not vomit, she was not bleeding, so the level of risk of people around her would be extremely low.”
Sounds like the CDC is considering adding potentially exposed health care workers to the Do Not Fly list.
I have not seen any confirmation from the CDC Agency that they knew she had treated duncan and had this temp and told her she could fly. All reports are based from an anonymous source that she reported her temp. And the source is anonymous-not agency spokespeople. I need more before I condemn the CDC for this. If the CDC Agency (not an unnamed source) says she told them she had treated duncan and she had this temp and they still let her fly I will absolutely think they effed up, but I have not seen that yet. Even if they say she called and said she had a temp but did not disclose she had treated duncan I will not be side-eying that much, although you would think CDC Would have a list of potential contacts that they could have cross-checked.
True but all accounts and quotes from Tom Freidman of the CDC says "she should not have flown" so I think this morning's quotes like this one below show that the CDC looked at their accounts again and realized they probably screwed up or couldn't actually STOP her from flying without getting the local/city health department involved.
“Although she (Vinson) did not report any symptoms and she did not meet the fever threshold of 100.4, she did report at that time she took her temperature and found it to be 99.5,” said CDC Director Tom Frieden. Her temperature coupled with the fact that she had been exposed to the virus should have prevented her from getting on the plane, he said. “I don’t think that changes the level of risk of people around her. She did not vomit, she was not bleeding, so the level of risk of people around her would be extremely low.”
well that seems to be him confirming that she indeed did call. I just can't imagine WTF, if she had said, I treated Tomas Duncan and I have a temperature that they would let her fly. Even if it was in line with their protocols it seems stupid
True but all accounts and quotes from Tom Freidman of the CDC says "she should not have flown" so I think this morning's quotes like this one below show that the CDC looked at their accounts again and realized they probably screwed up or couldn't actually STOP her from flying without getting the local/city health department involved.
“Although she (Vinson) did not report any symptoms and she did not meet the fever threshold of 100.4, she did report at that time she took her temperature and found it to be 99.5,” said CDC Director Tom Frieden. Her temperature coupled with the fact that she had been exposed to the virus should have prevented her from getting on the plane, he said. “I don’t think that changes the level of risk of people around her. She did not vomit, she was not bleeding, so the level of risk of people around her would be extremely low.”
Sounds like the CDC is considering adding potentially exposed health care workers to the Do Not Fly list.
I find it interesting that all news stories on this say "she was not told that she could not fly". More information may come out to show the CDC messed this up, but to me there is a big difference between not being told not to do something, and being told it's ok for you to do something. And I'm wondering why the media keep carefully wording it that way.
I've noticed this too. I want to know exactly what was said.
So my hospital is requiring employees that travel to Dallas to wait 21 days before returning to work as a precaution. Can use PTO but otherwise unpaid
Really? I flew back from Dallas on Sunday and I'm at work. No one else seems concerned at all. Is this assuming that since you work in healthcare the employees have been in Dallas hospitals?
Who has 21 days of PTO saved up? That is a lot of time off.
Do you think this sounds paranoid?
That sounds paranoid. And unreasonable. I feel like the hospital should be doing something to help supplement employees paychecks.
I mean, right now people can make the choice to travel to Dallas or Ohio or whatever. But people that were there before are being punished for something that had no control over.
I have a question for the thread. How long after exposure to the virus would it be present in your blood? I feel like the EMTs who took Duncan to Texas Pres were tested and cleared quickly after possible exposure and they'd never shown symptoms. The deputy was also tested shortly after potential exposure.
Why aren't we running blood tests on all of the nurses who treated him at this point (if there is a reason other than expense?).
I am in MT where there is one of the 4 specialized units and the doctor who runs the unit used to work in Africa and was on our local public radio discussing that they stabilize the patients and then move them to these areas for better containment during treatment. Each of the units works with the other 3 units for guidance and protocols and to share information, but they are actually trying to keep the cases more isolated from each other while each unit gets their feet-wet (so to say) in treatment and containment practices. So I bet you'll see any future patients being sent to the other 2 containment hospitals also. Also CDC or the State Department decides who gets the limited beds at these facilities.
I have a question for the thread. How long after exposure to the virus would it be present in your blood? I feel like the EMTs who took Duncan to Texas Pres were tested and cleared quickly after possible exposure and they'd never shown symptoms. The deputy was also tested shortly after potential exposure.
Why aren't we running blood tests on all of the nurses who treated him at this point (if there is a reason other than expense?).
I thought it could be up to 21 days before you show symptoms. I would hope the EMTs and the Sheriff's Deputy are still currently under quarantine right now. You know, how Duncan's family was treated.
I think they are still being monitored, but I know I read something about them being tested and coming back negative. I was surprised at the time that they were able to get results so quickly.
As a team boarded Dallas Ebola patient Amber Vinson onto an airplane bound for an Atlanta treatment center Wednesday, a man wearing slacks, a button-down shirt and sunglasses stood out on the tarmac. While three people in hazmat suits helped the nurse out of an ambulance, off a stretcher and up the stairs to a specially equipped jet taking her to treatment at Emory University Hospital, a man in street clothes stood nearby holding a yellow envelope.
The sight led viewers to question why the mystery man was unprotected while everyone else, including Vinson, was covered from head to toe. Two of the workers who helped her from the stretcher even wore respirators Those questions were answered Thursday morning, when officials confirmed the man was indeed following protocol and supposed to be there.
"His role is to oversee the process of transport including on the tarmac," Randy Davis, vice president at Phoenix Air, told NBC News. "Part of our protocol is to have 1 person NOT in a bio-Hazard suit. "
Davis said the man, who he did not name, is the team's medical safety coordinator. Standard protocol is for him to wear street clothes, Davis said, because the suits can block field of vision and hearing. Davis said the man has been trained on keeping safe distance from patients and is ready to "suit up" if needed.
Coverage on Wednesday showed the unidentified man standing very near another hazmat-suited worker and then taking what appeared to be a container from one of the suited workers. He placed it on the steps to the jet and walked out of view.
He then reappeared as one of the PPE-suited workers came off the plane with red hazmat bags. He took what appeared to be a not-yet-used red bag from the worker in protective gear, then handed it to the workers as they bagged up items from the ambulance ride.
Then he conversed with two workers wearing respirators while the red hazmat bags were loaded onto the plane. He then grabbed the container from the stairs and got on the plane which departed Love Field en route to Atlanta. He got on the plane and is not in the Dallas area.
Post by feistypants on Oct 16, 2014 11:24:08 GMT -5
I would like to say that I'm glad that I read this thread. I'm an ICU nurse and in all of our "education" about Ebola, we were never told not to tube blood/specimens. I doubt that it'll be relevant where I am, but still... glad that GBCN is doing a better job of educating me than my employer.
Post by cattledogkisses on Oct 16, 2014 11:33:29 GMT -5
I can see how it's possible that not all hospitals were up to date on Ebola training prior to the current incidents, since we'd never had cases of it in the US before, but now that this is becoming a serious issue here I don't understand why all hospitals and healthcare providers aren't IMMEDIATELY implementing current training to their employees. That just seems negligent.
Plus, I think she is black. So, I would doubt she was racist and thought it was an African problem, but I haven't read this whole thread, so that may not be what HBC and others were getting at.
I can't speak for HBC, but myself I'm putting the blame and the racism on hospital administrators. The nurse was just doing what she was told.
I can see how it's possible that not all hospitals were up to date on Ebola training prior to the current incidents, since we'd never had cases of it in the US before, but now that this is becoming a serious issue here I don't understand why all hospitals and healthcare providers aren't IMMEDIATELY implementing current training to their employees. That just seems negligent.
I was asking a nurse friend about this. She has....stories. Like how at her previous job as a nurse manager in an ICU she had to fight with upper management to get proper training and equipment for caring for TB patients. Which most certainly HAS been around in the US and we do see cases of it. But they were trying to cut corners or something I guess and just weren't doing what they needed to be doing and it left their nursing staff just adrift. Luckily she's a good agitator so it got done, but not everybody in her position would have the ability and the wherewithal to fight that hard and that effectively. She's pretty damn sure these nurses were in that same situation - except with fucking Ebola.
She's really hot under the collar that people want to blame the nurses for "breaking protocol" when they didn't have the training or the supplies to follow protocol correctly, and even if they did the protocol isn't really that effective when there's no infrastructure in place to deal with disposal and decon on this level. Apparently there's a hashtag and everything? #supportthescrubs That and that people want to blame the initial ER nurse for the fact that he got discharged, except nurses don't MAKE discharge decisions, doctors do. And the doctor didn't read the damn chart.
She also (and this is what I keep coming back to) would like to know why Duncan wasn't just immediately airlifted to Emory or NIH or one of the other two as soon as he was diagnosed.
I know all this has been said here already, I just thought it was interesting to hear it IRL from somebody who would have been on the front lines if it happened here. (and she was still in her previous position. She got promoted out of direct patient care because she's too good at being a boss. Misses it a LOT though.)
And then she totally geeked out at the stuff the specialized facilities at Emory et al. must have and how much she'd like to see it.
Post by cattledogkisses on Oct 16, 2014 12:01:01 GMT -5
I'm with her in that I also don't understand why he wasn't immediately transported as soon as Ebola was confirmed. I understand there's risk involved in transport, but it seems like there's even more risk in keeping someone at a facility that doesn't have the training or the equipment to handle Ebola.
I'm glad that the two nurses are at facilities that are equipped to handle them.