I get being scared, but to refuse to treat patients with Ebola like symptoms (ie, a fever- at least that seems to be the line some are drawing) is not OK with me. What if cops and firefighters were like "nope" for 9/11? Some professions have more risk - I don't think you should be able to elect which parts of your job to do when shit gets tough.
Did people act this way about aids when we thought it was more easily transmitted than we do now?
All of that being said, they deserve better training and support. I hope all hospitals make this a priority.
I think the fact they aren't being properly trained and supported is what is making them not want to treat them. If there were real protocols and not just hey wrap medical tape around you, it'd be less understandable. It would be like having fire fighters respond to fires without water, I suppose.
And yes, watch We Were Here. Documentary on AIDS in early 80's. Aka gay cancer. Some hospitals were volunteer nurses because no one wanted to work in the AIDS ward. Most were lesbians, according to the film. They banded together. So this is nothing new. Deadly scary disease and no protection
And the mortality rate for Ebola has risen to 70% from 60% at the start of this :/
I was coming in to say this, exactly, about We Were Here.
I am a nurse and this had us talking ALL night last night. 1) if the first nurse infected had 4 years experience then she would be considered a pretty experienced RN. 2) they are cleaning these peoples apartments in hazmat suits but nurses are expected to just cover all exposed areas with fucking medical tape!?! This is NOT like a firefighter rejecting their job duties. As of right now we are not properly equipped to treat these patients and it is bullshit that we are being put in this position. My hospital has put out ONE email about Ebola saying they are working on a protocol for outpatient areas... Awesome. We are across the country but if we had an Ebola patient I guarantee we would end up just like Texas Pres. No one has the proper gear or knowledge of how to use it at our hospital, and I would wager most hospitals do not. And I work at a decent sized teaching hospital. It is ridiculous that we aren't prepared and that nurses are getting thrown under the bus about breaking protocol.
I would absolutely not panic about Ebola if I weren't a nurse. I am actually not worried about it at all, now enterovirus D68 terrifies me and should worry people a whole lot more but I digress. I just think it's ridiculous that we are not better prepared for this by now. Hospitals should have had protocols for this by now.
Excuse the grammar I have been up since 4pm yesterday.
If you can't fucking do your job because you're too scared, then you should just leave. That isn't the right job for you.
I'm pissed as all hell that there are people out there that went into the medical field to help people, and at the first sign of something big they run around pissing their pants.
And "don't be a hero"? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! That's what the job is!
Ok over the weekend, here in Boston, they landed a plane from the Eremites at Logan (I'm not clear on whether we were the planes destination, or if it stopped here in account of the issue) because five passengers had flu symptoms. And people with hazmat suits boarded and removed said passengers. And brought them to area hospitals.
None of the passengers had been to any west African countries, but they responded out of an abundance of caution.
It's good t be cautious, but it's going to cost tons of money, I can't even imagine if they get their shit straight and actually follow protocols. In any suspected case whatsoever.
If people had a clue what the map of Africa looked like it would probably be a good start. Asking someone "have you been in Africa?" should not be part of the protocol.
Even West Africa. Someone who was in Mauritania is no more at risk than someone who was in Oregon. We are talking about three countries--that are contiguous to one another. It should not be that hard to name them.
OMG yes. This is why learning about the world is important, people. I hate to be a smug asshole here, but at least memorize the names of the three countries.
It would be like hospital workers in Europe putting on hazmat suits and taking all precautions because someone really sick came into the hospital after just visiting San Diego because there was a case of Ebola in Halifax. No.
If you can't fucking do your job because you're too scared, then you should just leave. That isn't the right job for you.
I'm pissed as all hell that there are people out there that went into the medical field to help people, and at the first sign of something big they run around pissing their pants.
And "don't be a hero"? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! That's what the job is!
Where are there nurses refusing to take care of these patients?! We are voicing our concerns that we are being put in harms way with NO SUPPORT. We should be able to take care of them without playing Russian fucking roulette with our lives. I take care of kids with flesh eating bacteria, TB etc. but guess what, I am educated about how to deal with those things and there are protocols in place.
If you can't fucking do your job because you're too scared, then you should just leave. That isn't the right job for you.
I'm pissed as all hell that there are people out there that went into the medical field to help people, and at the first sign of something big they run around pissing their pants.
And "don't be a hero"? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! That's what the job is!
Where are there nurses refusing to take care of these patients?! We are voicing our concerns that we are being put in harms way with NO SUPPORT. We should be able to take care of them without playing Russian fucking roulette with our lives. I take care of kids with flesh eating bacteria, TB etc. but guess what, I am educated about how to deal with those things and there are protocols in place.
These accounts are causing quite a stir in the ER staff. nurses not willing to care for someone who presents Ebola like symptoms. Of course flu can present with the same basic symptoms so as we head into flu season this should get fun.
Or did you not notice that, or the one that told her husband to just walk away from the job. Like it our not, that is out there.
I didn't watch the video, but the today show had a piece on the protocol at the hospital in Atlanta dealing with ebola. It's way more intense than that CDC link posted above and should probably be the standard.
I've been feeling like people are kind of blowing this whole thing out of proportion, since I am generally not an alarmist. But it is getting scarier and I would probably feel a lot differently if I worked in healthcare.
Emory is one of the four hospitals in the country with a biocontainment unit. They are absolutely one of the most prepared places to handle things like this. Which is why I am starting to believe that transfer might be a better option. Regular hospitals are obviously not prepared, and that is not fair to the patient or the workers. We can treat this and contain it, but the CDC standard protocols for healthcare workers are obviously not going to be enough. It looks like even Emory had their share of difficulties.
2) they are cleaning these peoples apartments in hazmat suits but nurses are expected to just cover all exposed areas with fucking medical tape!?! This is NOT like a firefighter rejecting their job duties. As of right now we are not properly equipped to treat these patients and it is bullshit that we are being put in this position. .
Seriously - see that stuff they wear while cleaning the sidewalks? They people around the vomit and blood of live patients should be wearing the same stuff. Why is this hard?!
If they had proper gear, I'm right on pixy's train. But this is like sending soldiers out w/o armor. It's unconscionable.
I was surprised that it spread here, but hearing their protocol it makes sense. See those hospitals where there haven't been transmissions? Do what they're doing. Done.
Apparently there were 70 care givers of Duncan at the hospital. I don't think I saw half that many people with my c/s. It can't be that hard to set a limited team on pts and put them in full hazmat suits. What did they do at Emory? The fact that no one got sick from bringing those people back to the US says to me there is a way to contain this, this hospital is just doing a terrible job of it.
That said, if I'm not a health care worker or don't need to be in a hospital I'm not worried about being in Dallas.
I think Emory is a different situation because that hospital is one of four in the country that has a specific bio-containment unit built. My understanding is that doctors and nurses there have almost zero direct contact with the patient. You also have a medical staff that has been preparing for this exact situation for years, and you have a specific decontamination area, likely have an area where you dispose of contaminated gowns / waste (and a way to process that waste), and a negative air flow in the room to act as a vacuum and suck the air out of it.
The idea that any random hospital in the US is as prepared to handle this disease as one of the four specific ones with bio-containment units seems ridiculous to me. I'm still shaking my headat the fact they didn't just airlift Duncan (via the same plane they used to fly Writebol and Brantly) to Nebraska or Atlanta.
I also think it might be prudent for the CDC to establish bio-containment units in every major US city. It would behoove us to be prepared before an outbreak happens.
In short, I'm mostly side-eyeing the shit out of the CDC with how they handled this case. There should have been a large team on the ground evaluating this hospital's set-up immediately. I think it would have been terribly apparent the hospital was not prepared to handle this patient if the nurses really were using tape on exposed body areas.
Agreed about the CDC, and I know Emory has the special unit, but isn't there a step between that and gowns and masks (and booties if it's messy)? I feel like there's an easy and obvious step they're missing.
If you can't fucking do your job because you're too scared, then you should just leave. That isn't the right job for you.
I'm pissed as all hell that there are people out there that went into the medical field to help people, and at the first sign of something big they run around pissing their pants.
And "don't be a hero"? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! That's what the job is!
I agree with this. And I spent a substantial amount of time working with patients from all over the world in a public hospital in a city with hundreds of international flights daily.
Unless YOU know what it is like to presented with something this scary...walk a mile, that's all I'm saying there. While most nurses do undergo some kind of hazmat training, I seriously doubt many of them have had to actually put that training into use. If I walked into your local hospital right now and I asked nurses to show me exactly how to properly don and doff protective equipment without contaminating themselves, I would venture a guess that not many would do it 100% right 100% of the time. Additionally, have YOU ever spent more 10 minutes in a papyr or similar hazmat suit? It is itchy and sweaty and hot as hell.
I don't think 9/11 is a good comparison although I get your point. However, when you tell someone it is mandatory, you do cross a line in which people may begin to stop respecting their employer. A bad place to be for sure.
Also, yes, people most definitely did behave this way with HIV. Without a doubt.
I'll ask my MIL later tonight, but are nurses/doctors allowed to just say, "Yeah, not treating this guy" for anything? I know this is probably a stupid question.
Eh, the state of California had one of their awesome ballot initiatives 20-30 years ago that basically said medical staff could refuse to treat undocumented individuals. The CA Supreme Court was like, "NOPE." Everyone has the right to access medical care.
Now, of course, this movement was coming from nativists who thought "illegals" were crowding the ER. Not doctors themselves. So on an individual level, I don't know. I think many people and possibly the state or federal government might have a problem with a hospital, especially one taking public money, who would overall refuse to treat patients displaying symptoms like high fever and vomiting, but I can't be sure.
Then don't blame people for being scared. People are fucking scared and that is okay. When a hospital is not re-educating and training their people, that is scary and instead of telling the people who work hard to take care of us and our loved ones they aren't in the right field, the proper response would be to call out their hospital for not doing the right thing.
Being scared and refusing to treat people, or even planning to quit your job if presented with something big, are two different things.
Did anyone hear the story on NPR about the doctor who was working in Monrovia when the first ebola patient came into their hospital? He's from Michigan, I think. Anyway, when they discovered it was Ebola (they knew they would get it, eventually), the lead doctor told him, as he was suiting up, "Nope, you're not touching this patient, I'm not making international news for being in charge of the first white man to get ebola, here." As it turns out, of the 4 people who were transferring the patient, including one who was ONLY wearing gloves, I think all of them got ebola and 3 of them died, including the head doctor, so the Michigan doctor says that he probably saved his life. Which also tells me that medical professionals in Liberia die, too. A lot.
Where are there nurses refusing to take care of these patients?! We are voicing our concerns that we are being put in harms way with NO SUPPORT. We should be able to take care of them without playing Russian fucking roulette with our lives. I take care of kids with flesh eating bacteria, TB etc. but guess what, I am educated about how to deal with those things and there are protocols in place.
These accounts are causing quite a stir in the ER staff. nurses not willing to care for someone who presents Ebola like symptoms. Of course flu can present with the same basic symptoms so as we head into flu season this should get fun.
Or did you not notice that, or the one that told her husband to just walk away from the job. Like it our not, that is out there.
Oh so sorry, a whole 2 people mentioned being nervous on a message board, not like actual reports of nurses walking off the job or anything. I would totally agree with you if we were trained to deal with this shit across the board but we aren't and faulting us for having doubts about what we would do is shameful.
I have never even seen a hazmat suit let alone gotten the chance to try one on. You are damn right I would like to be prepared if I need one.
We are trying to raise awareness that we as a health care system are not prepared for this. This is a public health issue.
Or did you not notice that, or the one that told her husband to just walk away from the job. Like it our not, that is out there.
Oh so sorry, a whole 2 people mentioned being nervous on a message board, not like actual reports of nurses walking off the job or anything. I would totally agree with you if we were trained to deal with this shit across the board but we aren't and faulting us for having doubts about what we would do is shameful.
I have never even seen a hazmat suit let alone gotten the chance to try one on. You are damn right I would like to be prepared if I need one.
We are trying to raise awareness that we as a health care system are not prepared for this. This is a public health issue.
You (specific you), have trouble internalizing general you's when used. Yes? You can continue to be butthurt if you want, but it's misplaced.
Being scared and refusing to treat people, or even planning to quit your job if presented with something big, are two different things.
And I don't disagree with you there and I totally get taking the hard ass stance. However, taking this stance might not bring you the outcome you desire from both a safety and HR perspective.
Oh so sorry, a whole 2 people mentioned being nervous on a message board, not like actual reports of nurses walking off the job or anything. I would totally agree with you if we were trained to deal with this shit across the board but we aren't and faulting us for having doubts about what we would do is shameful.
I have never even seen a hazmat suit let alone gotten the chance to try one on. You are damn right I would like to be prepared if I need one.
We are trying to raise awareness that we as a health care system are not prepared for this. This is a public health issue.
You (specific you), have trouble internalizing general you's when used. Yes? You can continue to be butthurt if you want, but it's misplaced.
Like i said, I've been up all night and I am passionate about this. Call me what you will but I honestly cannot see your point of view, which surprises me because I generally really enjoy your posts. I am defensive because there has been a lot of "blame the nurse" going on the media and I don't think the general public realizes how poorly prepared we are and that it isn't our fault. We want to know what to do and be able to do it.
You have been really rude and hateful in this thread towards people who sacrifice a hell of a lot to take care of their patients. But go on with it I guess, I'm going to bed
I get being scared, but to refuse to treat patients with Ebola like symptoms (ie, a fever- at least that seems to be the line some are drawing) is not OK with me. What if cops and firefighters were like "nope" for 9/11? Some professions have more risk - I don't think you should be able to elect which parts of your job to do when shit gets tough. Did people act this way about aids when we thought it was more easily transmitted than we do now?
All of that being said, they deserve better training and support. I hope all hospitals make this a priority.
Yep. My mom is a nurse and worked in a hospital setting in the 80's, and told me that nurses were terrified of AIDS. Many refused to work with AIDS patients, and she knew many nurses who left hospital work for something like a job at a doctor's office just to avoid being around AIDS.
Seconding. My mom was also a nurse in the 80s, at a hospital in the Castro district no less.
Did anyone hear the story on NPR about the doctor who was working in Monrovia when the first ebola patient came into their hospital? He's from Michigan, I think. Anyway, when they discovered it was Ebola (they knew they would get it, eventually), the lead doctor told him, as he was suiting up, "Nope, you're not touching this patient, I'm not making international news for being in charge of the first white man to get ebola, here." As it turns out, of the 4 people who were transferring the patient, including one who was ONLY wearing gloves, I think all of them got ebola and 3 of them died, including the head doctor, so the Michigan doctor says that he probably saved his life. Which also tells me that medical professionals in Liberia die, too. A lot.
I heard that piece yesterday. It did a really excellent job of describing what the situation was like for many hospitals in that area. And it was also so sad.
I am curious if the hospital census has dropped as I assume patients given a choice of which hospital to go to are probably avoiding that one. Also curious if they've had nurses quit. I'm sure this info isn't public information though
She is not running from her job, but is concerned as hell that the facilities aren't doing shit to prepare or protect their staff from infection. Hell, she told the ER she works at they might want to put up a sign advising people with certain symptoms and travel exposures to please report them immediately to the triage nurse in case they should get isolated right away. Hospital didn't even have that up - oh shit, really, should we try to help in some obvious ways?
So while there are probably some freaked-the-shit-out healthcare workers out there, they're facing a shit ton of unknowns and are on the frontline. Not gonna hate on that. Nope. It's their job, yes - and they're doing it. Glad they are.
Plus regarding the differences between the Dallas case and all the other cases that have been treated in the us so far is that the other hospitals knew ebola was coming. Those healthcare workers and hospitals had at least 1-2 days to prepare, train, and practice. They were also able to receive their patients in full protective garb already.
Dallas and the Dallas healthcare workers were in a completely different frame of mind the first couple of days Duncan was admitted. It doesn't surprise me in the least that these healthcare workers are now testing positive.
Being scared and refusing to treat people, or even planning to quit your job if presented with something big, are two different things.
And I don't disagree with you there and I totally get taking the hard ass stance. However, taking this stance might not bring you the outcome you desire from both a safety and HR perspective.
You are right. I was being too hard on the workers. If these people are not getting the proper training I can see wanting to runaway and the poster who suggested her husband to that is justified.
Honestly, I think some of the patronizing, "oh just wash your hands!" "Sure, Liberians are getting sick but WE know so much more!" "Just don't roll around in bodily fluids!" narrative has led to this mess. No, it is not as contagious as measles, (what is, really?) but it is a very real threat to exposed healthcare workers and we owe them every thing to keep themselves safe while they care for others. If we can't do that then our healthcare system will collapse in any major pandemic, which we don't have now but it always a possibility in the future so lets address this and fix it NOW. We don't expect soldiers to fight without guns, or firefighters without gear, and clearly our current medical ensembles don't cut it with Ebola, so we need to step it up.
Thank you. I have been thinking exactly this. These Ebola posts are bringing out the weirdness in a lot of posters. A couple weeks ago people were very glib about the risks and I read posts along those lines, "don't become blood buddies and you're fine."
Um, no Ebola is not like Hep C or AIDS. IMO I feel like it's more akin to norovirus, and look how fast that shit spreads without having had a dramatic encounter with someone's bodily fluids.
The only "positive" I can see coming from this situation in Texas is that our healthcare system and general public get a little more respect for this disease and hopefully we learn more about how to stop it/treat it/prevent it.