Marriage counseling for financial woes?

[Pom]

In your case, I would suggest both of you reading "Smart Couples Finish Rich" David Bach, doing the worksheets and then going forward with meeting a financial planner if needed. I am sorry this is creating issues in your marriage, I hope you work it out.

[shopgirl07]

Just increase your 401K contribution ASAP. It *is* throwing money away and is seriously going to cripple your financial future. You don't need his permission to be financially responsible. He can make his own bad decisions about his retirement but there's no way he should drag you down with him. Seriously. Change your withholdings today.

[hopenotlost]

Oct 21, 2014 10:45:59 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

Just increase your 401K contribution ASAP. It *is* throwing money away and is seriously going to cripple your financial future. You don't need his permission to be financially responsible. He can make his own bad decisions about his retirement but there's no way he should drag you down with him. Seriously. Change your withholdings today.

I agree with this.  Honestly, if he's not willing to talk about it, I would just do it.  If he wasn't involved with the financial situation before, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even notice the change now.

[ssmjlm]

Up your retirement contribution, fixed your withholdings for taxes and make an appointment with a marriage counselor for the 2 of you. One who specializes in financial issues.

[mrshandy]

Yeah I would increase and then read David Bach. He has a pretty sensible approach that most couples can relate to.

My H and I did it probably about 4 years ago and it really helped us get our ass in gear about taking charge of our financial future.

Also, maybe watch Suzie Orman together. It comes on Saturday night. She definitely agrees with you so it might help for your H to see it from a financial expert.

Marriage counseling never hurts so if your H is willing I say go for it. Hopefully it will help you both be a team together.

[doobeedoo]

What about a compromise? Instead of going directly from 1 to 6%, can you do it incrementally? Personally, I'd start by increasing it to 3% asap. You probably won't feel that pinch too much. Then, I'd come up with a plan to increase the contribution until you get to 6%. Every 6 months, you can increase by 1%. You'd be at 6% within 1.5 years in this scenario without and you can adjust your spending habits more gradually, which may be more palatable to him. In the meanwhile, you will have potentially gotten raises or COL adjustments which will also help to soften the blow.

I also would not stop at 6% contributions--I'd probably stay on this plan, but scale back to an increase of 1% every year until you get to 10% minimum. And again, personally I'd stay on this plan until I can max, if feasible, which will help you make up for the smaller contributions in your earlier years.

[Deleted]

What is the actual issue you are fighting about? Too much spending? Someone under-earning? Recovering from job loss? All of the above?

Whether you save 5% isn't going to matter until you talk about what you are really fighting about.

[Poppy]

Well, I can say that it's pretty typical to have disagreements about finances. It sounds like you guys have pretty good conflict resolution skills otherwise, so try not to despair too much. Personally, I would not go behind his back and raise my 401(k) contributions at this stage. That seems like the nuclear option to me and you guys are just beginning to actually come up with a financial strategy. You still have the chance to make it work as a team. I would talk to him again about how important it is to you, and try to figure out a compromise. You will need his buy-in to make the other changes that you need to make.

What things has he been willing to do to make the financial changes that you guys need to make? Is there some other method he is more comfortable with? What factors have changed his perspective about your family's spending (eg you hit some level of debt, etc)? What are his ideas for how you two can get on the same page (because obviously him just getting his way without putting in any effort is completely unfair and unacceptable)?

[asoctoberfalls]

I totally agree with Poppy that going behind his back would be the worst possible decision if you want to have a happy marriage. If you guys have joint finances, and it sounds like you do, then decisions need to be made jointly. I read some of your other posts, and it honestly sounds like you guys are all over the place. You want to pay off debt using Dave Ramsey's debt snowball while also saving for retirement. Your husband wants to pay off high interest debt first, but cut retirement contributions and all savings. You guys really need to unite and come up with a plan together, or else you'll both end up getting frustrated and end up doing nothing. (At least, nothing that will help your financial future).

In your mind, your husband is being foolish in that he wants to throw away FREE MONEY. On the other hand, I bet your husband is scared because he thinks you want to stay in debt. He's probably picturing you guys wallowing in debt forever, which is not what you have in mind. A good marriage counselor should be able to open up the lines of communication so you can each hear what is probably not being articulated very well.

[pinkdutchtulips]

as someone who's marriage collapsed due to financial infidelity among other things .. DO NOT DO ANYTHING FINANCIAL behind his back. you are a TEAM and need to act like one. counseling is a very good first step.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2014 11:58:46 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

as someone who's marriage collapsed due to financial infidelity among other things .. DO NOT DO ANYTHING FINANCIAL behind his back. you are a TEAM and need to act like one. counseling is a very good first step.

I agree. Changing your retirement contribution behind his back would be a huge breech of trust between my H and I. Shit, we argued last night about whether $33/month in vision insurance is with the cost!

I agree with you- it makes much better since to max your 401k to the company match. I get it. But doing it without his agreement would be a huge issue in my house. I Agree with the recommendations for counseling.

[aurora]

I would separate out the tax and 401(k) discussions (and financial impact). The tax decision is a must-do, not a good idea. You're going to have to pay that money no matter what, it's just a question of now or later. Maybe if he sees it as a comparison of just the $401(k) contribution vs. pay off debt faster the numbers won't seem quite as tilted.

Beyond that, if he really won't listen to your argument about retirement, I'd propose doobeedoo's compromise idea (except split the difference to 3.5% - halfway between 1% and 6%). That way he feels like you're listening to him, even if all of us on MM feel like he's being unreasonable. Then, up your contribution the rest of the way in 6 months or a year when he's had more time to process.

[aurora]

I do have to add, though, that this part would also drive me crazy:

Oct 21, 2014 10:28:44 GMT -5 superduper said:

...

I've created a lovely spreadsheet showing the potential growth of the 401K over the next 3 years keeping as is vs increasing to 2%, 3%, up to 6%, he won't look at it.

I've created a debt snowball worksheet showing the minimal difference it makes contributing that $200 per month, he won't look at it.

...

He won't even look at the background research you've done, and refuses to consider your suggestions? That's more petulant child behavior than husband behavior. I'd give him a week to calm down, then revisit, then ask him what his solution is for discussing/coming to agreement if he doesn't like yours.

[L]

Oct 21, 2014 11:13:20 GMT -5 @kcpokergal said:

What is the actual issue you are fighting about? Too much spending? Someone under-earning? Recovering from job loss? All of the above?

Whether you save 5% isn't going to matter until you talk about what you are really fighting about.

This is a really good point.  It sounds like there's got to be more going on here than just a disagreement over putting your money towards debt or retirement.

[ddi741]

I would second going to Dave Ramsey's class. You guys need to be on the same page. Don't make any changes without him knowing. That will only cause more issues going forward.

[pinkdutchtulips]

Oct 21, 2014 13:03:45 GMT -5 @juno said:

Can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't suggesting behind anyone's back. I'd tell him about it, I just wouldn't care about the response if he's telling me he won't even discuss it. Right now, he's getting to dictate everything, so I don't see how that's better. Talking and compromising is great; but if that isn't working the default is not my husband gets his way 100%. Sure, counseling, but in the mean time, if I'm going to live in a dictatorship, I'll be the dictator, thanks. And if it doesn't work out for us, I'll have retirement savings. I take care of me. Many women don't, and the results can be ugly.

2 dictators in a relationship spell disaster ...

[Poppy]

Oct 21, 2014 13:03:45 GMT -5 @juno said:

Can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't suggesting behind anyone's back. I'd tell him about it, I just wouldn't care about the response if he's telling me he won't even discuss it. Right now, he's getting to dictate everything, so I don't see how that's better. Talking and compromising is great; but if that isn't working the default is not my husband gets his way 100%. Sure, counseling, but in the mean time, if I'm going to live in a dictatorship, I'll be the dictator, thanks. And if it doesn't work out for us, I'll have retirement savings. I take care of me. Many women don't, and the results can be ugly.

I get what you're saying that you have to protect yourself. But here's the thing - all this debt and all the retirement contributions will be marital assets/liabilities. 

Of course the actual laws vary by location, but you don't just get to walk away with your 401(k) - it's all split just like the debt. So why poke the bear in an otherwise happy marriage and make it more likely that you'll end up in an expensive divorce? Legally speaking, they are a team and if OP starts the trend of them operating as individuals and completely ignoring one another's wishes, it could be disastrous. He could easily ring up a bunch of debt out of vengeance during the time she is extracting herself from the marriage.

[badgergrl]

I may be remembering wrong, but isn't a big part of the debt his from his divorce or something like that? So he wants to sacrifice your future to pay off his past? Hell no. Plus he spends way more every month than you, right? He has expensive hobbies he won't give up? This is way bigger than your 401k.

[mushmouse]

You have $2-300 a month extra in addition to a discretionary and eating out budge that could be cut IN HALF? And he's claiming to be serious about paying off debt? Since he's not interested in discussing I would just make a decision and tell him about it. If you want to be more gentle increase it in 1% increments so the income will decrease a little bit over time. Just give him the schedule for the increases. But 1% is crazy, I would immediately go to 3 and then do 1% at a time. We don't have any money to eat out and we're contributing more than that.

[Poppy]

OK, well look, if the marriage is "over" then OP should absolutely look out for #1 and do what she needs to do.

But, she says they only fight about money. And he is not doing the bury-his-head-in-the-sand I-do-what-I-want spend like crazy nonsense that is really terrifying. He also wants to get into a better place. Money is a complex thing psychologically. Lots of people on this board say things like "we have way too much cash but my husband just can't get over the mental hurdle to invest it." And that's ok, they find some compromise that works for them. As long as one spouse isn't bullheadedly dragging them both toward financial ruin, there is room for middle ground. It sounds like they are both changing their perspectives about money, but it doesn't happen overnight. And they will both grow in their own ways. The only thing that really worries me is that he seems to be unwilling to look at the stuff she's put together. Thing is, I am a spreadsheet fiend myself and I have been through similar with my husband - he just finds spreadsheets overwhelming and starts shutting down. So she should at least try out some other approaches, maybe with the help of a counselor or with a book or whatever. I am NOT saying that you should roll over and do what he says. But I do think that it's premature to go rogue and give up on making this work as a team.


OP, some other thoughts:
You are conflating several issues. The tax thing is separate from the 401(k) contribution vs debt issue and separate from the spending changes. At the end of the month you need to balance the budget, but otherwise these things can all be negotiated separately. You guys already have a status quo of contributing some money to your 401(k)s, so you are already making a tradeoff between debt and 401(k). Once you look at it that way, you see that whatever number you do end up on, you are making some compromise. Good luck on working through this. I know it is scary to be arguing but I believe that it's very normal to have to work to find a solution once people move past the denial and try to come up with a shared strategy.

[mich1]

It sounds like you are the one doing all the compromises, and that's not fair.....especially as it is at the expense of your retirement.

IMO, it REALLY sounds like you need to discuss your financial situation with a third person. Maybe a financial advisor can help get the message across to him? However, it would tick me off if my husband was not willing to listen to a logical argument as to why we needed to do something to better our financial future.

[Deleted]

Yes, I would also change it myself. It is your job. It isn't like you are changing the withholding at his job.

[julygal]

If I am reading this right, you say the proposed changes of retirement and taxes will reduce the take home pay by $500, but you only have $2-300 of wiggle room in your budget. I can see how your DH feels that you can't afford to make these changes even if they are for the better. I know you say there are easy cuts to make up for it, but again i can see how this has your DH feeling uncomfortable as it doesn't even address the debt he's concerned about. I think it is typical for couples to argue about finances, especially when big changes are needed. I know it is different than spending it on shoes or an expensive hobby because retirement is the future, but it still has the same feeling to the overall household budget. Just trying to give some perspective to why these discussions can be so difficult and your DH is digging in his heels.

I agree with the PP that said to separate tax out from the retirement/debt conversation and address that now. That tax bill is coming regardless of your debt or retirement status. You need to get a plan for that, then move onto the other areas.

[shopgirl07]

He's going to have to grow up at some point? That's your plan? Meanwhile, you've pissed away thousands of dollars that would have become tens of thousands of dollars in retirement? Good luck with that.

[msmerymac]

Oct 21, 2014 13:15:24 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Oct 21, 2014 13:03:45 GMT -5 @juno said:

Can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't suggesting behind anyone's back. I'd tell him about it, I just wouldn't care about the response if he's telling me he won't even discuss it. Right now, he's getting to dictate everything, so I don't see how that's better. Talking and compromising is great; but if that isn't working the default is not my husband gets his way 100%. Sure, counseling, but in the mean time, if I'm going to live in a dictatorship, I'll be the dictator, thanks. And if it doesn't work out for us, I'll have retirement savings. I take care of me. Many women don't, and the results can be ugly.

I get what you're saying that you have to protect yourself. But here's the thing - all this debt and all the retirement contributions will be marital assets/liabilities. 

Of course the actual laws vary by location, but you don't just get to walk away with your 401(k) - it's all split just like the debt. So why poke the bear in an otherwise happy marriage and make it more likely that you'll end up in an expensive divorce? Legally speaking, they are a team and if OP starts the trend of them operating as individuals and completely ignoring one another's wishes, it could be disastrous. He could easily ring up a bunch of debt out of vengeance during the time she is extracting herself from the marriage.

Only if that's what the parties agree to, and it doesn't sound like he cares that much about the 401k. Ask me how I know.

But I still wouldn't do it behind his back. I'd find a way to get him to listen and pay attention to what I was saying, not demand we do anything.

[lemon]

If this was covered already then I probably missed it, but is he also contributing to a 401k? And if so, what percentage is he contributing?

[thedutchgirl]

Oct 21, 2014 15:36:49 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

Why do you have to change your allowances to 0? Can you do 2 instead?

Per a post last week, they owe a boatload in taxes.

OP, we found counseling aimed at resolving a few financial differences very helpful. A third party can help each person understand the other's perspective. One with some actual financial expertise could be very helpful to you.

[jena]

It's pretty easy to change your % to 401k, right? What about suggesting that you give it a trial run? If it's too tight, you'll back off. If it's easily absorbed, you'll keep going. Say a 3 month trial. That's less stressful than thinking about things have to be a certain way forever. It's just a test run.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2014 10:45:47 GMT -5 Pom said:

In your case, I would suggest both of you reading "Smart Couples Finish Rich" David Bach, doing the worksheets and then going forward with meeting a financial planner if needed. I am sorry this is creating issues in your marriage, I hope you work it out.

Thiiiis! You may find out his value system (re $$) is slightly different than yours, which could lead to some interesting insight.

The other thing - if you are at an impasse and truly just can't get on the same page - splitting the difference (ex: you up 401k some, but not all) could be a good middle ground.