Naps affecting nighttime sleep?

[rbp]

M (16w) is a *great* napper, but he sleeps for shit at night. He often has three or more wakeups, and I feed him at at least two of those. I'm exhausted and starting to wonder if his naps are affecting his nighttime sleep. He sleeps 13-15 hours a day: 9ish hours at night (interrupted several times) and 4-6 hours during the day. I have considered two possibilities: (1) he is sleeping too much during the day and therefore isn't tired enough to sleep longer stretches at night or (2) his napping is preventing him from eating enough during the day to fill up to sleep longer stretches at night.

A typical day looks like this:
6:30 am wakeup
Nurse, play
7:30-9:15 nap
Nurse, play
10:30-1:00 nap
Nurse, run errands
2:45-4:00 nap
Nurse, play
6:00-6:30 nap
Start bedtime routine (bath sometimes, swaddle, nurse) around 8:00
Down for the night at 8:30 or 9
Wakeups vary, let's say around 11, 2, and 5. I can usually get him back to sleep without nursing at one of these wakeups.

I am happy to feed him more during the day, but I'm not sure when. Do I feed him twice in between naps? Make him skip a nap? Restrict the length of his naps? (Last I asked pedi she said up to three hours at a time was ok; he rarely naps that long.) FWIW he's pretty pleasant most of the time except for some witching hour fussiness.

Also, should I still be trying to cluster feed him, or is that a newborn thing? I feed him if he acts hungry, but he's just generally fussy in the evening. I worry that if I feed him at really short intervals, he won't eat enough at his bedtime feeding to make it for several hours at night. Is this unfounded?

Finally, I know that lots of babies don't STTN, but I would really like to sleep for more than 2.5 hours at a time. I am losing my mind here. Help, MMM?

ETA: he has around eight wet diapers a day, so I'm pretty sure he's getting enough to eat. I just wish less of it were between the hours of 10 and 6!

Also, M gets really fussy if he's awake for more than two hours or so, so I'm not sure how he should be napping less, if he should be?

We use white noise, paci, and swaddle at night. Magic sleepsuit was a fail so far.

[hopecounts]

I would cluster feed and shorten the last nap a little and see if it makes a difference.
You are also heading into the 4 month wakeful so it may be a matter of getting through it.
You can also try breaking the nurse to sleep habit using the Pantley Pull off Method (no cry sleep solution) which may help if he is developing a nurse to sleep connection.
Hang in there it does get better or he'll be old enough for sleep training before too long.

[Deleted]

First up, this is the bestest site for sleep advice:
www.troublesometots.com/3-6-month-baby-sleep-survival-guide/

Does he fall asleep nursing? I'd guess that's your night time problem - I would work on frequent feeds in the evening, plus a dream feed before you go to bed if he happens to be sleeping then. And I'd move the last bed time feed to before jammies and such to try to get away from the "I need the boob to go back to sleep" problem. I could be totally off base - we call it the "4 month wakeful" around here for a reason. Most kids get better inside a month, and the rest tend to get Ferbered at around 5 months.

[rbp]

Nov 28, 2014 10:11:44 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

First up, this is the bestest site for sleep advice:
www.troublesometots.com/3-6-month-baby-sleep-survival-guide/

Does he fall asleep nursing? I'd guess that's your night time problem - I would work on frequent feeds in the evening, plus a dream feed before you go to bed if he happens to be sleeping then. And I'd move the last bed time feed to before jammies and such to try to get away from the "I need the boob to go back to sleep" problem. I could be totally off base - we call it the "4 month wakeful" around here for a reason. Most kids get better inside a month, and the rest tend to get Ferbered at around 5 months.

Yes, I do nurse him to sleep at bedtime and MOTN. I know that's a no-no, but he falls asleep so easily that I've been holding onto it.

I'm reading Ferber now. Guess it's time to work on those sleep associations...eek!

[Deleted]

Can you pump before you go to bed and have DH take the first wakeup? I found that more hours of uninterrupted sleep really helped me feel better rested.

[rbp]

Nov 28, 2014 10:17:38 GMT -5 @republicrat said:

Can you pump before you go to bed and have DH take the first wakeup? I found that more hours of uninterrupted sleep really helped me feel better rested.

This could help, but H is such a heavy sleeper that I'd have to push him out of the bed to feed M. He takes a bottle ok, but nursing is much more soothing for him. And if I'm awake anyway, it seems pointless to wake H up too.

He will take the first wakeup if he's still awake or if I wake him up. But he works overnight 4-6x/month, and those nights tend to be especially rough. UGH

[halfpint]

I still nurse B to sleep, and he STTN. I think it's a crap shoot.

I remember 4 months being a little rough, but he moved past it. I think sleep (for most kids) gets better after that - he slowly went from many wake-ups to 2 to 1 to none. I always nursed back to sleep, it's fast and easy (relatively, anyway, right?).

I know that doesn't help you now. Do you think he's hungry, or just can't fall asleep again? You could try dad taking first wake-up - Dr. Sears has some good dad-"nursing" techniques (wearing, rocking down, etc.) - I don't think non-feeding soothing works from mom because he'll just be frustrated you're not actually feeding him.

[D2M]

Dr. Karp's happiest baby guide to sleep says not to let naps last more than 1.5 hours and to definitely guard the length of that last evening nap. It seems so counterintuitive to wake your sweetly napping baby, but if he's awake more, you'll be able to squeeze in more feeds. Dr. Karp also is a big advocate of the dream feed, but around 4 months is when we dropped it with DD because she was getting annoyed by it (and fully waking up, which defeats the purpose). Also, if you nurse to sleep, Dr. Karp recommends putting your baby down and then lightly waking them up (I used to blow on DD's face) so they have to re-settle by themselves.

It sounds like I'm a brainwashed Dr. Karp fan, but I liked what he had to say and it worked for DD, but we didnt follow everything to a T. Also, at 4 months, her sleeping went to crap, so everything kind of went out the window. Good luck. Interrupted sleep gets so old after a while.

[rbp]

Nov 28, 2014 11:33:28 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

I think he needs to go to sleep earlier at night. Around 4 or 5 months is when I pushed DS's bedtime to 730 and then at 6 months I pushed it to 7 (which it still is 2 years later). That would eliminate the need for that 600 nap and may help his overall sleep.

I've considered that, but does bedtime have anything to do with MOTN wakeups? He's not yet four months FWIW.

[D2M]

Nov 28, 2014 11:42:42 GMT -5 rbp said:

Nov 28, 2014 11:33:28 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

I think he needs to go to sleep earlier at night. Around 4 or 5 months is when I pushed DS's bedtime to 730 and then at 6 months I pushed it to 7 (which it still is 2 years later). That would eliminate the need for that 600 nap and may help his overall sleep.

I've considered that, but does bedtime have anything to do with MOTN wakeups? He's not yet four months FWIW.

I think it's the whole sleep-begets-sleep business. All the sleep folks (Karp, Weissbluth, Moms on Call etc.) advocate for earlier bedtimes. Re-reading your daily schedule, I'd also eliminate that last nap and start bedtime around 630-7. DD fell into a 7-730 bedtime around 3.5 months.

[smock]

Nov 28, 2014 11:57:33 GMT -5 D2M said:

Nov 28, 2014 11:42:42 GMT -5 rbp said:

I've considered that, but does bedtime have anything to do with MOTN wakeups? He's not yet four months FWIW.

I think it's the whole sleep-begets-sleep business. All the sleep folks (Karp, Weissbluth, Moms on Call etc.) advocate for earlier bedtimes. Re-reading your daily schedule, I'd also eliminate that last nap and start bedtime around 630-7. DD fell into a 7-730 bedtime around 3.5 months.

Ditto this. Try moving bedtime earlier and see if it helps with overnight sleep.

And the troublesome tots post on bedtime was really helpful for me.

[SJ]

TT also helped me so much. The best takeaway for us was that they can't be awake for longer than 2 hours. Ada has followed that like clockwork. She isn't really on any other set schedule but if she's been awake for 1:45 I know a nap is coming soon.

I don't feel like I can really give advice though. What A does is not necessarily what will work for M, but I can explain what she does now since they are a similar age.

She went to bed late (almost midnight) until she started daycare at 3 months and since then has been roughly on a 7-7 "night" schedule. 1-2 wakeups between 7-7 to eat and go back down. She can go 8ish hours at night without eating. She takes 2-3 naps/day- 3 shorter ones on weekends and 2 longer ones at daycare. Never more than 2 hours awake.

[rugbywife]

When we moved DDs bed time from 7- 7:30 to 6 it made a huge difference in her sleep cycles. We started at 18 weeks I think.

[rbp]

Ok thanks. I'm going to move bedtime earlier by 15 minutes a night and see if that helps. SJ, @mrsbecky, smock, rugbywife did you also have to move away from feeding directly before bed? I'm really worried about this drowsy but awake thing.

[smock]

I still nurse to sleep, but I try to do the Dr. Karp thing of waking her slightly when I put her down in her crib. For us, bedtime has been very easy since we started a bedtime routine and moved bedtime to 7:30. She usually has 1-2 MOTN wake-ups still, and I'm working on slowly eliminating MOTN feedings before 3am-ish.

[rugbywife]

Nov 28, 2014 18:49:02 GMT -5 rbp said:

Ok thanks. I'm going to move bedtime earlier by 15 minutes a night and see if that helps. SJ, @mrsbecky, smock, rugbywife did you also have to move away from feeding directly before bed? I'm really worried about this drowsy but awake thing.

Yes. I think we started with putting her down awake first and then backed up her bed time but I could be remembering wrong.

At this point I was still breastfeeding MOTN so she still nursed to sleep for her night feedings but for naps and bed time we tried to put her down awake. It took about a month I think to get her to the point where she was consistently put down wide awake and put herself to sleep. This was, as far as I could tell, at the heart of the Ferber message.

Putting her down earlier was suggested by a sleep consultant to help with her numerous MOTN wake ups.

[rbp]

Oh God. I'm terrified of putting him down awake (but I know it has to be done). What do I do if he cries??

[rugbywife]

Nov 28, 2014 19:08:00 GMT -5 rbp said:

Oh God. I'm terrified of putting him down awake (but I know it has to be done). What do I do if he cries??

I didn't start at 16 weeks, closer to 20, that 5 month mark, lol.

I would let her cry in bed. I would do the check ins. Essentially followed Ferber. She never really cries anymore.

[rbp]

Nov 28, 2014 19:11:21 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Nov 28, 2014 19:08:00 GMT -5 rbp said:

Oh God. I'm terrified of putting him down awake (but I know it has to be done). What do I do if he cries??

I didn't start at 16 weeks, closer to 20, that 5 month mark, lol.

I would let her cry in bed. I would do the check ins. Essentially followed Ferber. She never really cries anymore.

So this is what I'm wondering. Should I even bother with drowsy but awake if I'm not all-in on Ferber yet?

[smock]

Nov 28, 2014 19:08:00 GMT -5 rbp said:

Oh God. I'm terrified of putting him down awake (but I know it has to be done). What do I do if he cries??

If she cried I would go in and try to get her drowsy again--with rocking, walking, etc.

[SJ]

Nov 28, 2014 18:49:02 GMT -5 rbp said:

Ok thanks. I'm going to move bedtime earlier by 15 minutes a night and see if that helps. SJ, @mrsbecky, smock, rugbywife did you also have to move away from feeding directly before bed? I'm really worried about this drowsy but awake thing.

We do not feed her to sleep. I think daycare helped immensely with this habit.

[rbp]

Nov 28, 2014 20:09:14 GMT -5 SJ said:

Nov 28, 2014 18:49:02 GMT -5 rbp said:

Ok thanks. I'm going to move bedtime earlier by 15 minutes a night and see if that helps. SJ, @mrsbecky, smock, rugbywife did you also have to move away from feeding directly before bed? I'm really worried about this drowsy but awake thing.

We do not feed her to sleep. I think daycare helped immensely with this habit.

M naps for shit at DC. Of course, he is only there 2x/week. Maybe this will improve when he starts full time in January?

My God I am not cut out to SAH.

[rbp]

Update! Put him down drowsy but awake at 8:30. Watched the monitor in horror as he moved around, but he didn't cry. Appeared to fall asleep in about six minutes.

So far, so good. Not expecting much, but hoping for no 10 pm wakeup tonight! I'm about to put myself down drowsy but awake. Lol

[curbsideprophet]

I would cut out the last nap and move up bed time. I don't think I would worry about drowsy but awake right now, but if that works for you, go for it.

[rbp]

Nov 29, 2014 9:34:59 GMT -5 @lcap said:

I think the goal at this point is to get him to consolidate his naps into two longer periods, one in the morning one, in the afternoon. Cut out the late afternoon nap and put him down for the night earlier (6-6:30). Sleep begets sleep at this age. I know it sounds counterintuitive but that's what all those sleep books say to do. It really does work that way IME.

There's no way he's going to be awake for four hours at a time at this point (two nap schedule). I thought the transition to two naps happened at more like 6-8 months? He is not yet 4 months.

[Wonderwall]

Lose the last nap and put him down earlier. Like 7pm.

That has worked for us.