Is the Rolling Stone Story True?

[Velvetshady]

My DH had me read this over the weekend. It raises some issues he had with the original story. He also pointed out that the story claims this happened during the first few weeks of the the fall semester--and UVA only has a Spring rush--so there would be no "pledges" at that point to participate.

He also pointed out that in VA, most schools can't report numbers on reason for expulsion due to privacy laws--so there wouldn't be any "expulsions for rape" reported.

Basically, he doesn't believe the story as written because there are just too many little things "off" about it, he doesn't trust the author or Rolling Stone (due to prior negative articles on frats), and because of his experience as a frat member/officer, a student gov officer, an RA, a member of his school's Board of Visitors/Honor Board/Greek Honor Board (a different VA university). He doesn't doubt that rape is problem (at UVA and most other schools), but he sees too many issues with this specific story to believe it as written.

I don't know what to believe. I'd like to hope lots of it aren't true, but I know too much to believe it's all false.

[Deleted]

UVA could respond by putting together a comprehensive rape prevention program, providing better security and more oversight. I don't think the truth behind the story is important. I think it's likely the story itself is an amalgamation of stories but not only the story but the responses and the people coming forward with similar experiences clearly indicate a need for change in the college experience, both on specific campuses and colleges as a whole.

The last thing UVA needs to do is try to refute anything. Because this story might not be true as it's told but I guarantee you there are plenty that are true. Just like it wasn't important to me to ascertain whether or not Janice Dickinson is is being completely honest in her telling of Cosby's assault of her. He's still a rapist and UVA is still a campus that if not condones rape, then at minimum, looks the other way and hushes up victims.

[acuore]

Whether the story in the article is true in every detail or not, I thought the RS article was junk journalism - sloppy, unsubstantiated, and inaccurate.  

[elleblue]

Dec 2, 2014 22:54:50 GMT -5 toledo said:

This dude is questioning "the very existence" of rape culture. So, fuck him. Entire argument negated, because it's crystal clear what his "preexisting biases" are.

That was my first thought. His inherent bias seems to be to disbelieve rape culture, so if he wants to examine things without buying in to preconceived ideas, why is he so ready to assume that this story is improbable? It goes both ways.

And yes, this story is problematic in part because it's pretty much impossible to prove. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

Also, I'm rolling more eyes hard at anti-fraternity culture. Are you kidding me with that? 

[heliocentric]

Maybe it's not accurate. That's not ideal as it could do a disservice by providing ammunition to those who try to discount rape and rape culture. However, even if it's not 100% accurate, I have enough personal stories of friends who were raped to know that this shit happens all the time and it's about damn time people start talking about it and taking it seriously.

Also, what about the stories on women in the article who were identified? That alone should be enough to highlight a problem at UVA even if you take Jackie out of the picture.

[jeaniebueller]

I can't imagine why a victim of sexual assault wouldn't want her real name and identity out there

[FloFTW]

I do think, from a journalistic standpoint, that it's problematic that the specific accused men were not identified/contacted in any way.

ETA: www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/author-of-rolling-stone-story-on-alleged-u-va-rape-didnt-talk-to-accused-perpetrators/2014/12/01/e4c19408-7999-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

[IIOY]

Dec 3, 2014 8:45:41 GMT -5 FloFTW said:

I do think, from a journalistic standpoint, that it's problematic that the specific accused men were not identified/contacted in any way.

A journalism professor cited in the NYT article I posted below made the point that if this were any other type of crime, we probably wouldn't expect the accused to be contacted so as to admit or deny the crime.

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2014 8:49:10 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Dec 3, 2014 8:45:41 GMT -5 FloFTW said:

I do think, from a journalistic standpoint, that it's problematic that the specific accused men were not identified/contacted in any way.

A journalism professor cited in the NYT article I posted below made the point that if this were any other type of crime, we probably wouldn't expect the accused to be contacted so as to admit or deny the crime.

Yeah, I can't remember any recent articles about alleged crimes where they got the side of the accused if the accused wasn't a celebrity. Even then, they reach out for comment and proceed even if they can't get one. iirc, the previous article didn't even give a last name for the accused and in those cases, I definitely cannot recall them getting that person's side.

[FloFTW]

Dec 3, 2014 8:49:10 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Dec 3, 2014 8:45:41 GMT -5 FloFTW said:

I do think, from a journalistic standpoint, that it's problematic that the specific accused men were not identified/contacted in any way.

A journalism professor cited in the NYT article I posted below made the point that if this were any other type of crime, we probably wouldn't expect the accused to be contacted so as to admit or deny the crime.

I understand that the point of the article was to tell the victims' stories, and to expose the piss poor policies of UVA as a university, and it was clearly very successful in that. I applaud that STRONGLY. I know that there is so much truth in the story and I'm not even questioning the truth of any of the victims' tales at all. I wouldn't even expect the accused to respond, period, if they were even contacted. It's not that I'm looking for corroboration; that is not needed and it would never happen. The story was about the bureaucratic (non) response to rape. But I'M not the type of person that would question these stories.  

I think it was strange that it was assumed that the identities of the rapists were "known" by the UVA community enough that the author didn't contact them at all, instead just contacted the president and seemingly gave up. If the identities are just so known by word of mouth and by knowing who was at that fraternity, when...I confess that I do wonder why we haven't heard any denials. And I'm on the side of being outraged. Think of the rape and abuse deniers. I feel like maybe if she'd been able to talk to the accused, even off the record and still not publicly identify...it might have helped her case even further. In this type of piece, it sucks to leave any place to poke holes or ask questions, because you know that those against it will try to tear it down any way they can.

[Velvetshady]

Dec 3, 2014 8:16:12 GMT -5 heliocentric said:

Maybe it's not accurate. That's not ideal as it could do a disservice by providing ammunition to those who try to discount rape and rape culture. However, even if it's not 100% accurate, I have enough personal stories of friends who were raped to know that this shit happens all the time and it's about damn time people start talking about it and taking it seriously.

Also, what about the stories on women in the article who were identified? That alone should be enough to highlight a problem at UVA even if you take Jackie out of the picture.

The problem is that the people that don't believe/accept that there actually is a problem--and who don't think anything actually needs to be done--will latch onto the inaccuracies and use those to push the line when questioning what is true and what isn't. 

It shouldn't take searching several schools for the "right story" to expose rape culture on campuses or the mis-handling/non-handling of instances by administrations. Every single inaccuracy that fails the truthiness test, gives the people that need to be convinced another reason to discount all stories. Remember that *we* aren't the people that need to be convinced the problem exists--it's not the people that know the story is some percentage of real, it's the people that don't want to believe any of it is truth.

You tell me something awful happened as part of a pledge initiation in the beginning of the Fall sememster, and I know for a fact that pledging only happens in the Spring semester, why would I believe anything else you tell me if I didn't want to believe you in the first place?

[decemberwedding07]

Dec 2, 2014 22:50:48 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

My problem with this story from the beginning is that there's no way to substantiate or disprove it. It's going to hit UVA so hard; and they have essentially no way to respond or rebut.

If UVA is being cast into a bad light for something it didn't do, then I feel terrible. I am happy, however, that this might get more colleges to consider their policies when it comes to on-campus sexual assault. I know a girl at SMU who has a friend who was raped recently. She reported the rape to the university, and the university sent out an email to alert the entire student body of what had happened before they sent campus security to the boy's dorm room to search his things. Basically, by the time they got there, his entire room was empty, since he knew they were coming.

[heyjude]

The UVA Gang Rape Backlash is Trap
nymag.com/thecut/2014/12/doubting-uvas-gang-rape-victim-is-a-trap.html

Less than two weeks after Rolling Stone published its blockbuster story about a UVA student who was allegedly gang-raped in a fraternity ritual, a media backlash is brewing. From Reason to The New Republic, journalists are fretting about the sourcing hazards of a narrative story about a sexual assault that depends heavily on the victim’s account, in case this one turns out to be an elaborate hoax. Their skepticism of writer Sabrina Erdely mirrors the disproportionate scrutiny that sexual assault victims face at the hands of the police. But without the same stakes as a criminal prosecution (conviction or wrongful conviction) it’s worth asking: To what end are we scrutinizing?

Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of wealth-management magazine Worth, led the charge on his personal blog, where he wrote that he was “not convinced that this gang rape actually happened.” Some of the details in writer Erdely’s telling confused Bradley, who believes gang rape mostly happens in “war-torn lands or countries with a strain of a punitive, misogynist and violent religious culture (Pakistan, for example).” According to Rolling Stone, other women said they were gang-raped at UVA, and I can think of a handful of similar cases off the top of my head, all of which took place in peaceful democracies — Texas, Johns Hopkins University, Canada, New Zealand. Nonetheless, Bradley has been fooled once. The alleged UVA victim, identified as “Jackie,” reminded Bradley of Stephen Glass, the disgraced journalist whose fabricated stories slipped past Bradley’s editorial judgment when he edited Glass at George because, he says, “they corroborated my pre-existing biases.”

It’s not clear how Jackie’s alleged ordeal at the hands of Virginia frat boys could corroborate Bradley’s biased notion ... of violent, religious Pakistanis. But even if we apply Bradley’s logic to the world of campus sex and feminist commentary, it doesn’t quite track. A standard-issue story of boozy sex between frat boys and drunk freshman girls would seem to confirm feminist biases about male sexual entitlement — and it would be pretty easy to believe. A story of premeditated ritual gang rape, however — the kind of story Jackie told Erdely — is so far beyond the pale that it’s almost unbelievable to begin with. It’s hard to imagine anyone but a pathological liar making it up.

The UVA story shocked even feminist writers who read rape horror stories day in and day out. Slate’s "Double X" podcast panel was audibly baffled, interrogating Erdely about her reporting. “What made you believe her story was true?” Hanna Rosin asked. In the absence of a police report and third-party witnesses, rape stories (like rape trials) often devolve into he said, she said. Dozens of interviews with Jackie’s friends convinced Erdely of Jackie’s credibility. As for the alleged rapists, Erdely said she wasn’t able to reach them. Slate’s follow-up reporting suggests Jackie was uncooperative in identifying the men — for narrative purposes, one is called “Drew” — because she is terrified of their retaliation. In another interview, Erdely won’t say whether she knows who they are, because of an agreement with Jackie. Her editor has said that although the men could not be contacted, the magazine knows who they are. For the magazine’s readers, Drew and the other alleged rapists are completely unidentifiable.

Media critics have taken Erdely to task for not pressing Jackie to confirm their identities and allow her to track them down in person, though single-source narration happens without incident in less sensitive stories all the time. (There probably wasn’t anybody around to corroborate some of the details of GQ’s lauded feature on hermit Christopher Knight, either.) What makes Jackie’s story arguably different is the magnitude of her accusations: Critics of the story say that the men deserved a chance to offer their side of the story before having their names smeared. Except, what names? The only identified entity at risk of reputational harm in Rolling Stone is Phi Kappa Psi, leaders of which Erdely did reach. “Although at this time we have no specific knowledge of the claims set out in the Rolling Stone article, we take this matter — and these tragic allegations — very seriously,” they wrote in a statement. The UVA chapter notified Phi Kappa Psi brass, which notified the police.

It’s not uncommon for rape survivors to want to talk about what happened to them without instigating a drawn-out, invasive, and often-futile police investigation, especially when their alleged rapist is powerful. Some recent accusations of sexual abuse have begun as blind-item-y personal essays, like the xoJane article that ultimately led to Jian Ghomeshi’s firing. But, again, accusing high-status men of rape — even pseudonymously — can seem like a greater cause for alarm than the abuse itself.

And compared with how many sexual assaults go unreported, there’s an outsize paranoia about false reports of rape, which has been frustratingly hard to shut down empirically. As Megan McArdle explained, it’s a “dark number,” possibly unknowable. Also mysterious is the motive a woman would have for fabricating a gang rape, talking about it in a campus support group, then anonymously sharing it with a journalist. Stephen Glass lied for professional acclaim; his stories were engineered to dupe those in charge of his next assignment. Reporting rape means opening yourself up to unpaid and uncomfortable scrutiny and judgment. (One writer conjectured that Bill Cosby’s accusers were “aging actresses who have one eye on the CNN camera, and the other on a book or reality show deal.”) By demanding total anonymity for her and her assailants, Jackie stands to gain neither fame nor revenge. Aside from some canceled parties, no young man’s future has been imperiled by the story. At this point, more anti-rape protesters have been arrested than alleged rapists.

Washington Post critic Erik Wemple argued that Erdely’s one-sided story left “Jackie” vulnerable to intense doubters. At Slate, Allison Benedikt and Hanna Rosin argued that by not naming and confronting the rapists, Erdely made the same mistake as UVA’s administration: “They both deferred to the victim’s sensitivities to such an extent that they failed to out the alleged rapists.” The difference is that UVA has a responsibility to protect its students from psycho frat boys. Rolling Stone doesn’t. Erdely’s job was to get Jackie’s story — which was reportedly ignored by the UVA administration — out to the public. Erdely probably had to sacrifice identifying the alleged rapists beyond the name of their fraternity in order to make Jackie comfortable enough to go on the record.

Bradley concludes that if you “believe [Rolling Stone’s story] beyond a doubt” you’re taking a leap of faith. To that end, it’s a good thing that magazine journalism — unlike jury duty — makes no such demand. For readers, believing “Jackie” (or any woman) when she says someone did something terrible to her is not the same thing as sending “Drew” to jail. It just means following Erdely in the (still, apparently, radical) move of taking a traumatized young woman at her word. At this point, the benefits of believing Jackie if she is telling the truth (forcing reform at UVA, encouraging other women to come forward) outweigh the risks of believing Jackie if she is lying (unnecessary wariness about Phi Kappa Psi). If Jackie lies in a consequential way — slandering a person by his real name, or making false accusations to the police — there will be legal repercussions. But the preemptive backlash makes it feel like presumed innocence is a privilege reserved for purported rapists and not their purported victims.

No journalist wants to fall for the next Stephen Glass or Duke lacrosse case. But Erdely wrote the piece in such a way that she and Rolling Stone — not Jackie and Drew — are the ones who will be most damaged by a false report. Meanwhile, the journalist backlash is putting feminists who believe in believing women in the uncomfortable position of hoping Jackie told the truth about her gang rape. Not because we want to confirm our biases about monstrous men, but because we’d hate to see confirmation for sexist biases about lying, attention-seeking women. In other words, we’re backed into the corner of hoping someone was gang-raped on broken glass — and how can that possibly constitute a happy ending? If anything, we should hope that Jackie is lying. Then exactly zero lives will have been ruined in this story.

[ttt]

Dec 2, 2014 22:22:59 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

My DH had me read this over the weekend. It raises some issues he had with the original story. He also pointed out that the story claims this happened during the first few weeks of the the fall semester--and UVA only has a Spring rush--so there would be no "pledges" at that point to participate.

He also pointed out that in VA, most schools can't report numbers on reason for expulsion due to privacy laws--so there wouldn't be any "expulsions for rape" reported.

Basically, he doesn't believe the story as written because there are just too many little things "off" about it, he doesn't trust the author or Rolling Stone (due to prior negative articles on frats), and because of his experience as a frat member/officer, a student gov officer, an RA, a member of his school's Board of Visitors/Honor Board/Greek Honor Board (a different VA university). He doesn't doubt that rape is problem (at UVA and most other schools), but he sees too many issues with this specific story to believe it as written.

I don't know what to believe. I'd like to hope lots of it aren't true, but I know too much to believe it's all false.

This is the kind of thing that concerns me. It's very possible that this specific story is untrue. It's also very possible that it IS true. Because there are many, many other stories that weren't written about and that I know to be true. 

And frankly, UVA's tone-deaf response to all of this has told me everything I need to know about how seriously they take sexual assaults on campus. 

[IIOY]

Dec 3, 2014 19:47:08 GMT -5 incogneato said:

Dec 2, 2014 22:22:59 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

My DH had me read this over the weekend. It raises some issues he had with the original story. He also pointed out that the story claims this happened during the first few weeks of the the fall semester--and UVA only has a Spring rush--so there would be no "pledges" at that point to participate.

He also pointed out that in VA, most schools can't report numbers on reason for expulsion due to privacy laws--so there wouldn't be any "expulsions for rape" reported.

Basically, he doesn't believe the story as written because there are just too many little things "off" about it, he doesn't trust the author or Rolling Stone (due to prior negative articles on frats), and because of his experience as a frat member/officer, a student gov officer, an RA, a member of his school's Board of Visitors/Honor Board/Greek Honor Board (a different VA university). He doesn't doubt that rape is problem (at UVA and most other schools), but he sees too many issues with this specific story to believe it as written.

I don't know what to believe. I'd like to hope lots of it aren't true, but I know too much to believe it's all false.

I'll admit I was confused about this, too, but I THINK (don't remember for sure) that pledges from the previous year are still considered pledges until the frat does rush again in the spring. 

It's been long enough that I don't recall the details, but I know that during my Greek life at my school, various houses had "off-season" pledges for whatever reason.

As for whether a fraternity lives up (or down) to its reputation, all I can say that the house I spent most of my social life at while I was in college, because I dated a brother for a bit and was friends with many others, was what I considered a healthy, safe environment.  I could have walked into that house at any time for help or just to hang out, and I would have been treated with total respect.  The guys were known as some of the "good guys" on campus. Several years ago, my school withdrew recognition of the house because of bad behavior resulting in a death.  House culture can change; all it takes is one rambunctious class to work its way up over the course of three years.

[pinkeggs]

Everyone in Cville knows that sexual assault at UVA has been a huge problem for a very long time. Whether or not this specific instance was fabricated or not, it still desperately needed this attention.

[Velvetshady]

Dec 3, 2014 20:27:03 GMT -5 pinkeggs said:

Everyone in Cville knows that sexual assault at UVA has been a huge problem for a very long time. Whether or not this specific instance was fabricated or not, it still desperately needed this attention.

Comments like these aren't helpful either, just like inaccuracies in the original article aren't helpful. Because, well, bullshit. All it takes is me naming one person in Cville that was shocked by the story to discredit you. And I can do that easily--I'm related to a few--and yeah, it's probably been pushing a half-century since my mom attended a frat bash, but there, I have discredited your "everyone in Cville knows". Hell, I had a conversation this weekend with a UVA grad--with a degree from there in Womens' Studies, no less--who was shocked by the story and upset that this could happen at "her UVA". And it's not like she went through school being blind to the issue of rape--she had been raped prior to coming there and that experience was what drove her to focus on Womens' Studies, so she was far more on the hyper-aware side.


And I know I have an ingrained bias when it comes to UVA so this is the only time I'll address it. I didn't go there--I was the only person in my immediate family that didn't. My parents loved it so much, they "retired" there (both worked second/third careers while there--some linked with UVA, some not). And a good number of my extended family and close friends also when there. I was there for every home football game for two years and attended many parties at frat houses. I also spent ~1 weekend a month there my junior/senior years in college. And attended many events/parties. I never once felt uncomfortable or unsafe, I can't say that about the school I actually attended or others I've visited. Maybe I was just extremely lucky. I know many women that attended UVA, across many generations. I knew several of them were raped--but not one of the them was raped while at UVA. Again, maybe they were just extremely lucky, but I somehow doubt it. Not saying I've never heard of rapes happening--because I have--just not involving someone I personally knew.

I'm not trying to claim it isn't a problem at UVA. But acting like UVA is worse than other schools, or that you can't walk a block down Rugby Road without getting attacked, isn't going to help convince people it's a problem that needs to be addressed. It's actually going to make the people that need to listen tune out.

[irishbride2]

Dec 3, 2014 22:02:03 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Dec 3, 2014 20:27:03 GMT -5 pinkeggs said:

Everyone in Cville knows that sexual assault at UVA has been a huge problem for a very long time. Whether or not this specific instance was fabricated or not, it still desperately needed this attention.

Comments like these aren't helpful either, just like inaccuracies in the original article aren't helpful. Because, well, bullshit. All it takes is me naming one person in Cville that was shocked by the story to discredit you. And I can do that easily--I'm related to a few--and yeah, it's probably been pushing a half-century since my mom attended a frat bash, but there, I have discredited your "everyone in Cville knows". Hell, I had a conversation this weekend with a UVA grad--with a degree from there in Womens' Studies, no less--who was shocked by the story and upset that this could happen at "her UVA". And it's not like she went through school being blind to the issue of rape--she had been raped prior to coming there and that experience was what drove her to focus on Womens' Studies, so she was far more on the hyper-aware side.


And I know I have an ingrained bias when it comes to UVA so this is the only time I'll address it. I didn't go there--I was the only person in my immediate family that didn't. My parents loved it so much, they "retired" there (both worked second/third careers while there--some linked with UVA, some not). And a good number of my extended family and close friends also when there. I was there for every home football game for two years and attended many parties at frat houses. I also spent ~1 weekend a month there my junior/senior years in college. And attended many events/parties. I never once felt uncomfortable or unsafe, I can't say that about the school I actually attended or others I've visited. Maybe I was just extremely lucky. I know many women that attended UVA, across many generations. I knew several of them were raped--but not one of the them was raped while at UVA. Again, maybe they were just extremely lucky, but I somehow doubt it. Not saying I've never heard of rapes happening--because I have--just not involving someone I personally knew.

I'm not trying to claim it isn't a problem at UVA. But acting like UVA is worse than other schools, or that you can't walk a block down Rugby Road without getting attacked, isn't going to help convince people it's a problem that needs to be addressed. It's actually going to make the people that need to listen tune out.

I think because you are close to the situation you are taking it personally.

Many schools have major problems with rape and sexual assualt. MOST people are not claiming otherwise. That does not mean we should ignore or excuse UVAs issues. (i'm not saying YOU are saying we should excuse it). But I think it is irrelevant, from UVAs perspective, that other schools have issues too. 

You are nitpicking. Should she have said "many" or "most" instead of "Everyone?" Yes. But the sentiment remains the same. 

[sunny]

Anecdotes are worthless, I know, but there were lots of women on FB saying "Oh yeah, that was the same frat I was told to stay away from in the 70s" and enough firsthand accounts of people saying they were assaulted on the UVA FB page that I was shocked. Sadly, (again anecdote) it would appear this has been going on for some time. And I absolutely see the UVA culture of honor and secret societies being one that would shove this kind of unsavory drama in a closet never to see the light of day. Combined with the video they leaked and the President's initial bungled response, I can easily see how scarily true it would be.

I mean come on, this dude in 2011 raped a girl and they let him be a teaching assistant!!!
www.nbc29.com/story/25753826/uva-under-investigation-for-handling-of-sexual-misconduct-case

[Deleted]

There was enough that could be sustantiated in that story that I'm side eyeing anyone from the area surrounding UVA who is all nuh uh, guys, we're not worse than anyone else, guys.

Fuck off with that.

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2014 22:32:54 GMT -5 sunny said:

Anecdotes are worthless, I know, but there were lots of women on FB saying "Oh yeah, that was the same frat I was told to stay away from in the 70s" and enough firsthand accounts of people saying they were assaulted on the UVA FB page that I was shocked. Sadly, (again anecdote) it would appear this has been going on for some time. And I absolutely see the UVA culture of honor and secret societies being one that would shove this kind of unsavory drama in a closet never to see the light of day. Combined with the video they leaked and the President's initial bungled response, I can easily see how scarily true it would be.

I mean come on, this dude in 2011 raped a girl and they let him be a teaching assistant!!!
www.nbc29.com/story/25753826/uva-under-investigation-for-handling-of-sexual-misconduct-case

But but but in that one story, it was fall!! So obviously the parts involving the women who went to that administrator who was useless but totally nice about being useless were lies too, DUH!

[heyjude]

So it goes...

College alma mater.

-------

Women.


Got it.

Women always get the shaft.

[Velvetshady]

Dec 3, 2014 22:05:14 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

I think because you are close to the situation you are taking it personally.

Many schools have major problems with rape and sexual assualt. MOST people are not claiming otherwise. That does not mean we should ignore or excuse UVAs issues. (i'm not saying YOU are saying we should excuse it). But I think it is irrelevant, from UVAs perspective, that other schools have issues too. 

You are nitpicking. Should she have said "many" or "most" instead of "Everyone?" Yes. But the sentiment remains the same. 

Yeah no, obviously I lost my point in my babbling.

My point is that if I can that easily discount several assertions in her first sentence (everyone knows, its a huge problem, at UVA, for a very long time), then why--if I don't want to believe her in the first place--would I bother to attempt to believe her second sentence?  Again *we* aren't the ones that need to believe it is a problem and needs to be fixed, and we aren't going to convince the ones that aren't convinced while we're actively handing them the ammo needed to shoot our assertions down.

And that is why "Whether or not this specific instance was fabricated or not" actually does matter.





But I'm sick and have a nasty fever, so maybe I'm just not making coherent sense :?

[irishbride2]

Dec 3, 2014 22:53:35 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Dec 3, 2014 22:05:14 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

I think because you are close to the situation you are taking it personally.

Many schools have major problems with rape and sexual assualt. MOST people are not claiming otherwise. That does not mean we should ignore or excuse UVAs issues. (i'm not saying YOU are saying we should excuse it). But I think it is irrelevant, from UVAs perspective, that other schools have issues too. 

You are nitpicking. Should she have said "many" or "most" instead of "Everyone?" Yes. But the sentiment remains the same. 

Yeah no, obviously I lost my point in my babbling.

My point is that if I can that easily discount several assertions in her first sentence (everyone knows, its a huge problem, at UVA, for a very long time), then why--if I don't want to believe her in the first place--would I bother to attempt to believe her second sentence?  Again *we* aren't the ones that need to believe it is a problem and needs to be fixed, and we aren't going to convince the ones that aren't convinced while we're actively handing them the ammo needed to shoot our assertions down.

And that is why "Whether or not this specific instance was fabricated or not" actually does matter.





But I'm sick and have a nasty fever, so maybe I'm just not making coherent sense :?

No, I get your point. But I think its nitpicking. If she had said "most" or "many," then your point is irrelevant and her sentiment still holds true. Should she have said everyone? No. But I think we all know what she meant. 

But yes, semantics is sadly what people seem to get caught up in, at least in Facebook world. So I get your point, I do

[Velvetshady]

Dec 3, 2014 22:54:50 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

Dec 3, 2014 22:53:35 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Yeah no, obviously I lost my point in my babbling.

My point is that if I can that easily discount several assertions in her first sentence (everyone knows, its a huge problem, at UVA, for a very long time), then why--if I don't want to believe her in the first place--would I bother to attempt to believe her second sentence?  Again *we* aren't the ones that need to believe it is a problem and needs to be fixed, and we aren't going to convince the ones that aren't convinced while we're actively handing them the ammo needed to shoot our assertions down.

And that is why "Whether or not this specific instance was fabricated or not" actually does matter.





But I'm sick and have a nasty fever, so maybe I'm just not making coherent sense :?

No, I get your point. But I think its nitpicking. If she had said "most" or "many," then your point is irrelevant and her sentiment still holds true. Should she have said everyone? No. But I think we all know what she meant. 

But yes, semantics is sadly what people seem to get caught up in, at least in Facebook world. So I get your point, I do

Yeah, so maybe my point is that the people that don't want to believe that a "rape culture" even exists are filthy nitpickers and we should stop giving them nits to pick.

Or that they will throw out the baby with the bath water, because we'll admit the bath water is dirty and they don't want to believe there is a baby sitting in the bath water at all.


Yep, time for more NyQuil and sleep.

[irishbride2]

Dec 3, 2014 23:06:14 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Dec 3, 2014 22:54:50 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

No, I get your point. But I think its nitpicking. If she had said "most" or "many," then your point is irrelevant and her sentiment still holds true. Should she have said everyone? No. But I think we all know what she meant. 

But yes, semantics is sadly what people seem to get caught up in, at least in Facebook world. So I get your point, I do

Yeah, so maybe my point is that the people that don't want to believe that a "rape culture" even exists are filthy nitpickers and we should stop giving them nits to pick.

Or that they will throw out the baby with the bath water, because we'll admit the bath water is dirty and they don't want to believe there is a baby sitting in the bath water at all.


Yep, time for more NyQuil and sleep.

huh? 

And as to your first point, that ALWAYS happens. Always.

[Deleted]

They will always find a nit to pick. It's really not hard to discount the stuff that's iffy and get to the meat of the article and whether the overall point is true.

If you want to reject the parts you find untrue or off, then do that. But you're still left with plenty that cannot be thrown out with the bathwater, like UVA's shitty handling of the other cases mentioned. Even if you say, well maybe this girl right here wasn't raped like that, you're still left with administrators who have blown off concerns.

How is that not problematic?

It would be like believing Cosby is innocent just because Janice is crazy. Fine. Don't believe Janice. But all these other women?

[saz]

I'm too tired to understand the baby and dirty bath water part of this.

This was an interesting article but I think that even if this story was fabricated, it represents other similar stories that are real and hopefully will continue to draw attention to something that is a problem in many more places than UVA.

It is a shame that some people (rape culture deniers) will fixate on potential inconsistencies or errors in the story and use that as justification to throw away the entire issue (is this where the baby and bath come in?). But those people will probably never be convinced. The story opened a lot of eyes in my circle of friends and I think that is important.

[heyjude]

Why is anyone saying "if this story is fabricated..."?

Stop It.

[saz]

Dec 3, 2014 23:17:54 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Why is anyone saying "if this story is fabricated..."?

Stop It.

Because that was the crux of the article in the OP.