Eta: I don't get offended when non-Asians use chopsticks to eat Asian food so therefore it is not racist to me.
The chopsticks analogy doesn't work. A more appropriate analogy would be having a woman dressed as a geisha outside of a sushi restaurant. Chopsticks are legitimate eating utensils. A person dressed as a stereotypical cultural caricature is offensive.
This is a better comparison. I really should not post when I don't get enough sleep. Regardless, I have seen a non-Asian dressed this way. I never thought she was racist.
The chopsticks analogy doesn't work. A more appropriate analogy would be having a woman dressed as a geisha outside of a sushi restaurant. Chopsticks are legitimate eating utensils. A person dressed as a stereotypical cultural caricature is offensive.
This is a better comparison. I really should not post when I don't get enough sleep. Regardless, I have seen a non-Asian dressed this way. I never thought she was racist.
The chopsticks analogy doesn't work. A more appropriate analogy would be having a woman dressed as a geisha outside of a sushi restaurant. Chopsticks are legitimate eating utensils. A person dressed as a stereotypical cultural caricature is offensive.
This is a better comparison. I really should not post when I don't get enough sleep. Regardless, I have seen a non-Asian dressed this way. I never thought she was racist.
Yes, dressing up in stereotypical Asian clothes by someone who is not Asian is racist. Always, always, always.
Also, I don't understand your claim about something only being racist if you make it racist. Please explain. If who makes it racist?
Chopsticks aren't a symbol of racism. They're a cultural eating tool.
A person dressed as a blatant stereotype is racist. Full stop.
The bolded is such a damn mess I can't even begin. That mindset is completely dismissive and dangerous. Such small thoughts from a small mind that might have big consequences to those who are different than you.
But hey, no big deal right?
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Then again I had no sleep last night so what I said might not make sense either so whatever. But I think race is only a problem because people make it a problem. And eating with chopsticks is part of a culture just like dressing up to "represent" a culture, they're not just a tool.
If you call this racist than anyone eating with chopsticks is racist.
I vote not racist.
This doesn't make sense. Race is a problem "only because people make it a problem" only in the most simplistic of ways because People are what make up races. Things can be inherently racist regardless of whether certain individuals think they are or not. For example, rather than chopsticks which are tools that are used in a benign manner, the confederate flag is often defended as not racist in the south because the people with it on their cars "don't mean it in a racist way". This doesn't matter. It is racist regardless of intent.
I am genuinely trying to understand this better, would the reaction be the same if it was a Scottish place with a guy in a kilt, a Peruvian restraunt with someone in traditional clothes, ect? It is because it is the stereotypical man in a poncho and sombrero?
Basically, yes, exactly. A generic Mexican/Asian/Native American/whatever ethnicity or culture is offensive. If it's a specific historic person or recognizable character like Pancho Diaz, Mulan, or Sacagawea, then it's okay. Stereotyping a whole genre of people for laughs or economic gain is not okay.
Also trying to understand this better...I genuinely don't see people getting riled up when it's a leprechaun for Irish or like the exams above someone with a Scottish kilt.
Post by NewOrleans on Dec 18, 2014 10:54:30 GMT -5
Hand to God, "using chopsticks is also pretending to be another race and is therefore racist" is the single dumbest fucking statement I have read on ProBoards.
When you use chopsticks, you are not playing dress-up or going "Look how Japanese I look!" You are eating.
I can't even touch the oozing, festering putrescence that is "it's only racist when you make it racist." I defer to my betters on that. NitaXnuggetbrain
I don't know if I like the word racist for this. I think it seems more - culturally insensitive? Ignorant? I am guessing the store owner didn't ask the person to dress this way because they dislike Mexicans or think they are lesser or anything else negative, they just picked a stereotypical costume because they didn't give it a ton of thought. I feel like racism is a little more sinister than just being an idiot, KWIM?
I do think that the fact that the guy was Hispanic doesn't mean a whole lot. Even if he is Mexican, he probably didn't ask to wear the costume. He probably is just doing what he was asked by his boss because he needs a paycheck. I don't imagine the job handing out fliers is one that people take unless they NEED a job so this guy is probably just going along with it because he feels like that's what he needs to do. I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily think this is ok just because this guy getting paid minimum wage doesn't appear to be offended by what his boss has asked him to wear.
I don't know if I like the word racist for this. I think it seems more - culturally insensitive? Ignorant? I am guessing the store owner didn't ask the person to dress this way because they dislike Mexicans or think they are lesser or anything else negative, they just picked a stereotypical costume because they didn't give it a ton of thought. I feel like racism is a little more sinister than just being an idiot, KWIM?
I do think that the fact that the guy was Hispanic doesn't mean a whole lot. Even if he is Mexican, he probably didn't ask to wear the costume. He probably is just doing what he was asked by his boss because he needs a paycheck. I don't imagine the job handing out fliers is one that people take unless they NEED a job so this guy is probably just going along with it because he feels like that's what he needs to do. I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily think this is ok just because this guy getting paid minimum wage doesn't appear to be offended by what his boss has asked him to wear.
I think you can feel like that, but it's not reality. There is a whole spectrum of racism from systemic to stereotypical to subconscious to intentional. I think we dislike being called racist, so we want to say "it doesn't apply to me b/c I was just unaware." <--- That's still racist, but not in an intentional "sinister" way.
I feel like racism is a little more sinister than just being an idiot, KWIM?
I don't think the intent necessarily has to be sinister, but the result is the perpetuation of a negative stereotype, so the outcome is racist.
It's like racist policies that are codified either in law or in the rules for a company or private organization. One I remember being discussed is banning multiple braids in some private schools. Schools sometimes have these rules (and have for years) because they say they are distracting (the beads click) or they are overly fancy (trying to teach modesty). But it's also one of the only hairstyles that is easy and looks good on black girls with coarse hair. Most of the time, the principal is not racist. The person who edits the school hand book that includes the rule isn't racist. But the policy itself is, because it negatively and disproportionately affects black children, and implies that a very standard hairstyle is "bad." There are other, bigger examples, I'm sure.
It's racist. Anything that reflects or perpetuates the belief that one race is superior or inferior to another is racist. Negative stereotypes like caricatures of Mexicans in serapes are racist because they reflect and/or perpetuate perceptions of Mexican inferiority (I.e., the perception that Mexicans just run around in silly looking hats selling tacos). Whether or not the wearer actively believes that Mexicans are inferior is irrelevant* to the "is it racist?" inquiry.
Traditional or stereotypical Western European costumes (kilts, berets, lederhosen) are different because the history of racial oppression is not the same. Someone who is Mexican or Chinese or Indian wearing their own cultural dress for purposes of cultural celebration or self-expression is different because non-caricaturized, culturally appropriate attire does not reflect or perpetuate beliefs of racial inferiority.
*I would argue that the wearer's underlying intent and beliefs are still relevant in determining just how big of an asshole they actually are, as being racist because you are a clueless idiot is somewhat "better" IMO than being racist because you truly believe your own race is superior, to the extent we are ranking sins. But it is racist and wrong regardless.
I feel like racism is a little more sinister than just being an idiot, KWIM?
No, it's not. All the horrible overt racism of our history didn't vanish with the Civil Rights Act. It went silent and covert and thus continues in silent idsidiousness. Because it is hidden now in the system and in a million little microaggressions, it has the added benefit of people getting to say "I don't use the N word. I am therefore not racist" even as they enjoy a legacy of privilege and vehemently deny having any such privilege, and portraying anyone who dares suggest they do indeed benefit from a racist system as merely "playing the race card."
I don't know if I like the word racist for this. I think it seems more - culturally insensitive? Ignorant? I am guessing the store owner didn't ask the person to dress this way because they dislike Mexicans or think they are lesser or anything else negative, they just picked a stereotypical costume because they didn't give it a ton of thought. I feel like racism is a little more sinister than just being an idiot, KWIM?
I don't think the intent has to be to offend for something to BE offensive or racist.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics and didn't make my point. I don't think the guy outside in Mexican stereotypical dress was a good idea. I think it was potentially offensive and I don't like stereotyping. I just don't know if I like the term "racist" as a blanket term to mean a wide spectrum of things. I think many actions you could name "racist" are more nuanced than that and I think "ignorant" or something of the like is often more accurate. I think of racism as actually thinking negatively about a race other than your own. But, white girl. I don't know.
For example: I learned recently on CEP that cotton could be seen as offensive to black people. I had no idea and never thought of it that way. If I had put cotton out as decoration, I don't think it would be "racist" because I literally had no clue that was even associate with race (I mean I knew slaves picked cotton, but never related that to the present day. I don't live in an area where cotton grows so I just have never given it a thought). I think that's ignorance, and I totally own that I'm ignorant about some things I have never been exposed to. But if someone had said I was racist for that, I'd take big offense to that accusation. ETA: And would have felt terrible, been absolutely mortified, and wanted to take down the decorations!
So. In this example of the shop owner and costume, I think it's entirely possible that he was either thoughtless or just honestly didn't know that it was offensive. I feel like that's different than being racist. All that said, it would be great if someone could alert them that this is offensive and/or stereotyping and they could stop this form of advertising.
I don't get it. I wouldn't care if a British pub had a man dressed as a beefeater or a bobby outside handing out flyers.
I think I'm missing the point?
It's easy not to care when you are the dominant culture with positive stereotypes. A Native American costume carrying a tomahawk and scalp =/= beefeater or bobby.
I don't think the intent has to be to offend for something to BE offensive or racist.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics and didn't make my point. I don't think the guy outside in Mexican stereotypical dress was a good idea. I think it was potentially offensive and I don't like stereotyping. I just don't know if I like the term "racist" as a blanket term to mean a wide spectrum of things. I think many actions you could name "racist" are more nuanced than that and I think "ignorant" or something of the like is often more accurate. I think of racism as actually thinking negatively about a race other than your own. But, white girl. I don't know.
For example: I learned recently on CEP that cotton could be seen as offensive to black people. I had no idea and never thought of it that way. If I had put cotton out as decoration, I don't think it would be "racist" because I literally had no clue that was even associate with race (I mean I knew slaves picked cotton, but never related that to the present day. I don't live in an area where cotton grows so I just have never given it a thought). I think that's ignorance, and I totally own that I'm ignorant about some things I have never been exposed to. But if someone had said I was racist for that, I'd take big offense to that accusation. ETA: And would have felt terrible, been absolutely mortified, and wanted to take down the decorations!
So. In this example of the shop owner and costume, I think it's entirely possible that he was either thoughtless or just honestly didn't know that it was offensive. I feel like that's different than being racist. All that said, it would be great if someone could alert them that this is offensive and/or stereotyping and they could stop this form of advertising.
I don't know whether or not I can say this as well as I'd like, but here goes, white girl to white girl:
I think that feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and taking offense are not useful. We benefit from a system of institutionalized (not only or even primarily personal) racism, and we perpetuate it, consciously or not, willingly or not, by continuing to participate in it, using racially coded language ("ghetto," "uppity"), and a host of other actions, large and small. And until we can recognize our ignorance and all of the small things that we unknowingly do or don't do that perpetuate racism . . . without feeling guilty and then retreating from the conversation. . . we're not moving forward.
Example: DW and I were driving into our (relatively diverse) neighborhood a few weeks ago and saw a white person (gender indeterminate, but we were mentally leaning female) walking alone. We asked each other whether we should offer the person a ride and then immediately realized that we had many, many times passed black and brown people (men, mostly) walking alone---and had never before considered offering a ride. I'm going to call myself out on my own racism there. Was it complicated by the gender thing? Maybe. But I'm still calling it racist. It's not my fault----I've absorbed suggestions that black bodies are more dangerous or threatening than white bodies---but it's my responsibility to recognize it .
I'm just using your very natural reaction as a springboard for my own reflection, here. But I think that sometimes doing or saying something racist doesn't mean that someone is a hateful, terrible person. Good people like me participate in systems of institutionalized racism, too.
This is a better comparison. I really should not post when I don't get enough sleep. Regardless, I have seen a non-Asian dressed this way. I never thought she was racist.
Yes, dressing up in stereotypical Asian clothes by someone who is not Asian is racist. Always, always, always.
Also, I don't understand your claim about something only being racist if you make it racist. Please explain. If who makes it racist?
Just asking out of actual curiosity but where would you draw the line of between something being purely out of fashion and being a stereotype? I’m thinking the difference between the full sombrero getup intended as a stereotype vs a Aztec print sweater. Most people would probably say the Aztec print stuff isn’t perpetuating the negative stereotype and there’s no racist intent but it keeps getting brought up over and over again that the intent doesn’t have to be there. If a white girl really likes the look for a Mexican poncho or a kimono dress purely for the fashion, what makes something okay or not okay?
Yeah, I agree. Maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics and didn't make my point. I don't think the guy outside in Mexican stereotypical dress was a good idea. I think it was potentially offensive and I don't like stereotyping. I just don't know if I like the term "racist" as a blanket term to mean a wide spectrum of things. I think many actions you could name "racist" are more nuanced than that and I think "ignorant" or something of the like is often more accurate. I think of racism as actually thinking negatively about a race other than your own. But, white girl. I don't know.
For example: I learned recently on CEP that cotton could be seen as offensive to black people. I had no idea and never thought of it that way. If I had put cotton out as decoration, I don't think it would be "racist" because I literally had no clue that was even associate with race (I mean I knew slaves picked cotton, but never related that to the present day. I don't live in an area where cotton grows so I just have never given it a thought). I think that's ignorance, and I totally own that I'm ignorant about some things I have never been exposed to. But if someone had said I was racist for that, I'd take big offense to that accusation. ETA: And would have felt terrible, been absolutely mortified, and wanted to take down the decorations!
So. In this example of the shop owner and costume, I think it's entirely possible that he was either thoughtless or just honestly didn't know that it was offensive. I feel like that's different than being racist. All that said, it would be great if someone could alert them that this is offensive and/or stereotyping and they could stop this form of advertising.
I don't know whether or not I can say this as well as I'd like, but here goes, white girl to white girl:
I think that feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and taking offense are not useful. We benefit from a system of institutionalized (not only or even primarily personal) racism, and we perpetuate it, consciously or not, willingly or not, by continuing to participate in it, using racially coded language ("ghetto," "uppity"), and a host of other actions, large and small. And until we can recognize our ignorance and all of the small things that we unknowingly do or don't do that perpetuate racism . . . without feeling guilty and then retreating from the conversation. . . we're not moving forward.
Example: DW and I were driving into our (relatively diverse) neighborhood a few weeks ago and saw a white person (gender indeterminate, but we were mentally leaning female) walking alone. We asked each other whether we should offer the person a ride and then immediately realized that we had many, many times passed black and brown people (men, mostly) walking alone---and had never before considered offering a ride. I'm going to call myself out on my own racism there. Was it complicated by the gender thing? Maybe. But I'm still calling it racist. It's not my fault----I've absorbed suggestions that black bodies are more dangerous or threatening than white bodies---but it's my responsibility to recognize it .
I'm just using your very natural reaction as a springboard for my own reflection, here. But I think that sometimes doing or saying something racist doesn't mean that someone is a hateful, terrible person. Good people like me participate in systems of institutionalized racism, too.
This makes sense. Maybe I just need to redefine what "racist" means in my head I think I was more caught up on the term than the concept here, because I completely agree with and understand what you - and most others in this thread - have said about microaggressions/biases/assumptions that result in differential treatment.
Maybe "taking offense" was the wrong way to say how I'd feel anyway. I hope I wouldn't start yelling at someone who called me racist. I'd probably cry, lol. Treating people well and equally is very important to me and it would hurt my perception of myself if I was behaving in a way that was hurting others or making them feel like I valued them less than anyone else because of their race/culture.
Yes, dressing up in stereotypical Asian clothes by someone who is not Asian is racist. Always, always, always.
Also, I don't understand your claim about something only being racist if you make it racist. Please explain. If who makes it racist?
Just asking out of actual curiosity but where would you draw the line of between something being purely out of fashion and being a stereotype? I’m thinking the difference between the full sombrero getup intended as a stereotype vs a Aztec print sweater. Most people would probably say the Aztec print stuff isn’t perpetuating the negative stereotype and there’s no racist intent but it keeps getting brought up over and over again that the intent doesn’t have to be there. If a white girl really likes the look for a Mexican poncho or a kimono dress purely for the fashion, what makes something okay or not okay?