And I said in my post that if it's not racist it's stereotyping. So...because people are white it's okay to stereotype them, just not any other races? How about we all stop being fools and treat everyone with respect. I realize if you say hey rich white guy it's not racist but it's rude. If someone called me hey rich white girl I'd be inclined to tell them how I was dragged from drug house to drug house as kid and molested by multiple people and often went hungry. It wouldnt be right for me to say hey Mexican such and such even if whatever I say is true. It's just not cool.
I also realize that deters a bit from the man in a poncho in the OP but some people's posts are coming off as if people that are white can be on the receiving end of racism and that's crap.
But you recognize there is a difference between and that and a negative stereotype right? Someone assuming rich white person doesn't increase the likelihood of poor treatment. Someone assuming black person is the "help" or a "thug" likely would result in some negative treatment. So yes rich white guy is a stereotype. I am just having a hard time getting the relevance in a thread focusing on negative stereotypes.
Yes I do. And I feel like (Ill look for the posters name) explained in a better way then I could.
And I said in my post that if it's not racist it's stereotyping. So...because people are white it's okay to stereotype them, just not any other races? How about we all stop being fools and treat everyone with respect. I realize if you say hey rich white guy it's not racist but it's rude. If someone called me hey rich white girl I'd be inclined to tell them how I was dragged from drug house to drug house as kid and molested by multiple people and often went hungry. It wouldnt be right for me to say hey Mexican such and such even if whatever I say is true. It's just not cool.
I also realize that deters a bit from the man in a poncho in the OP but some people's posts are coming off as if people that are white can be on the receiving end of racism and that's crap.
The problem lies in representation. A white person being stereotyped doesn't result in the entire race bring represented in that stereotype. Minorities have the unfortunate problem of having a sensationalized or exploited image or projection being life threatening. It's not just a college or high school kid wearing a hood in the rain walking home. His thug stereotype lead one sociopath racist to track and then gun him down.
So, no, you don't get to marginalize the suffering of minorities due to stereotyping to the stereotype of being a rich white guy.
Right. And I didn't mean for it to just be reflective of the white guy stereotype but there is a dangerous representation that all white people are horrible racists and that is more my issue.
The problem lies in representation. A white person being stereotyped doesn't result in the entire race bring represented in that stereotype. Minorities have the unfortunate problem of having a sensationalized or exploited image or projection being life threatening. It's not just a college or high school kid wearing a hood in the rain walking home. His thug stereotype lead one sociopath racist to track and then gun him down.
So, no, you don't get to marginalize the suffering of minorities due to stereotyping to the stereotype of being a rich white guy.
Right. And I didn't mean for it to just be reflective of the white guy stereotype but there is a dangerous representation that all white people are horrible racists and that is more my issue.
Right. And I didn't mean for it to just be reflective of the white guy stereotype but there is a dangerous representation that all white people are horrible racists and that is more my issue.
That is making white people the victim. They're simply not.
You're marginalizing again. Offensively. It might be uncomfortable being called a racist, but not dangerous.
I don't feel that believing racism applies to all races is making it out to be a victim or marginalizing.
It's very possible I am Misunderstanding what you are saying and I will admit that communication is not my strong point.
Right. And I didn't mean for it to just be reflective of the white guy stereotype but there is a dangerous representation that all white people are horrible racists and that is more my issue.
Who is making that representation??? I have never in my life encountered such a sentiment and I bet I've lived in at least as many "diverse" neighborhoods as you have.
Racism and stereotyping are not the same, or even really comparable. Racism is supported by several hundred years of ongoing history in which groups of people have been systemically and brutally oppressed. Does that mean that all white people have easy lives? Of course not, and I'm sorry for what happened to you. But there is a WORLD of difference between the stereotype that all white American men are rich and the legacy of American racism.
This is true and I don't agree with racism. I grew up in a very culture diverse environment which I am grateful for. However because of where I lived, white was the minority and I got lashed out merely because I was white. I realize there are years of oppression for races, as a kid I didn't know the severity in the way I do now, but I also got treated like crap and called things I didn't deserve because of the mistreatment of others that I had no control over. Racism can be applied to anyone.
I've never dressed up as an insult to other races and it's never crossed my mind as something to do.
The problem lies in representation. A white person being stereotyped doesn't result in the entire race bring represented in that stereotype. Minorities have the unfortunate problem of having a sensationalized or exploited image or projection being life threatening. It's not just a college or high school kid wearing a hood in the rain walking home. His thug stereotype lead one sociopath racist to track and then gun him down.
So, no, you don't get to marginalize the suffering of minorities due to stereotyping to the stereotype of being a rich white guy.
Right. And I didn't mean for it to just be reflective of the white guy stereotype but there is a dangerous representation that all white people are horrible racists and that is more my issue.
All white people benefit from a system of institutionalized racism, which exists today. Not all white people hold personal racist beliefs. HTH.
Racism and stereotyping are not the same, or even really comparable. Racism is supported by several hundred years of ongoing history in which groups of people have been systemically and brutally oppressed. Does that mean that all white people have easy lives? Of course not, and I'm sorry for what happened to you. But there is a WORLD of difference between the stereotype that all white American men are rich and the legacy of American racism.
This is true and I don't agree with racism. I grew up in a very culture diverse environment which I am grateful for. However because of where I lived, white was the minority and I got lashed out merely because I was white. I realize there are years of oppression for races, as a kid I didn't know the severity in the way I do now, but I also got treated like crap and called things I didn't deserve because of the mistreatment of others that I had no control over. Racism can be applied to anyone.
I've never dressed up as an insult to other races and it's never crossed my mind as something to do.
No. Stereotyping can happen to anyone. Racism = prejudice + privilege/power and thus can only be directed at a minority. Racism is structural and systemic, not personal. I'm sorry that you were mistreated, but you didn't experience racism.
What you experienced, roseflower, is prejudice and stereotyping. It was uncomfortable and even painful but it was not racism. Racial prejudice towards white people does not have the weight of institutional oppression behind it like racism towards racial minorities.
Racism and stereotyping are not the same, or even really comparable. Racism is supported by several hundred years of ongoing history in which groups of people have been systemically and brutally oppressed. Does that mean that all white people have easy lives? Of course not, and I'm sorry for what happened to you. But there is a WORLD of difference between the stereotype that all white American men are rich and the legacy of American racism.
This is true and I don't agree with racism. I grew up in a very culture diverse environment which I am grateful for. However because of where I lived, white was the minority and I got lashed out merely because I was white. I realize there are years of oppression for races, as a kid I didn't know the severity in the way I do now, but I also got treated like crap and called things I didn't deserve because of the mistreatment of others that I had no control over. Racism can be applied to anyone.
I've never dressed up as an insult to other races and it's never crossed my mind as something to do.
Racism, as I understand it is prejudice plus power. So no, racism can't be 'applied' to anyone, especially in a society that continues to perpetuate inequality through our legal, financial and social framework.
That is making white people the victim. They're simply not.
You're marginalizing again. Offensively. It might be uncomfortable being called a racist, but not dangerous.
I don't feel that believing racism applies to all races is making it out to be a victim or marginalizing.
It's very possible I am Misunderstanding what you are saying and I will admit that communication is not my strong point.
You are marginalizing people of color by comparing your experience as a white person to their experiences of racism. White people do not experience racism. White people developed the system in which racism exists. White people hold all the power.
I'm sorry if you had struggles when you were younger, but you live in a system in which you are privileged to be white. Your experiences are nothing like those of a black woman or a latina woman.
Post by roseflower on Dec 18, 2014 14:10:49 GMT -5
jerseyjaybirdAJLcharminglife I've clearly misunderstood the type of prejudice I've experienced and I apologize for that ignorance on my part.
When I mentioned that I had experienced people stereotyping whites as horrible racists it was based on personal experiences. In school a group of two girls and guy (Hispanic) would walk behind me when I walked home from school and call me names based on me being white. It escalated to me being "white trash" and them throwing rocks and me. And using a stick to cut my legs. Then the older girl told me she was going to do a drive by of me house and kill me and my "fucking white family" at this point I told our principle and nothing was done about it. She then organized a bigger group of people to attack me on the way home from school. Another instance was a group of black guys telling me they wished they could rape and kill me because I was white and it would be payback for their people.
I took that racism but with what you all explained above I see more clearly the difference between racism and prejudice. I sincerely apologize.
I think stereotyping is generally problematic even when positive because it discounts the fact people are individuals and are not defined by their race or religion or cultural background and thus does little to promote actual discourse and understanding between people with different backgrounds. But that doesn't mean all stereotypes are racist or equally offensive or that the fact that someone once stereotyped you as a rich white sorority girl means that you have been victimized in the same way as a black person who was stereotyped as a criminal.
Stereotypes against white people exist and I see no problem with calling them out as generally unproductive and often wrong. But that doesn't make them "reverse racism" or make them an appropriate comparison to actual racism. I am confused as to why this is so hard to understand.
jerseyjaybirdAJLcharminglife I've clearly misunderstood the type of prejudice I've experienced and I apologize for that ignorance on my part.
When I mentioned that I had experienced people stereotyping whites as horrible racists it was based on personal experiences. In school a group of two girls and guy (Hispanic) would walk behind me when I walked home from school and call me names based on me being white. It escalated to me being "white trash" and them throwing rocks and me. And using a stick to cut my legs. Then the older girl told me she was going to do a drive by of me house and kill me and my "fucking white family" at this point I told our principle and nothing was done about it. Another instance was a group of black guys telling me they wished they could rape and kill me because I was white and it would be payback for their people.
I took that racism but with what you all explained above I see more clearly the difference between racism and prejudice. I sincerely apologize.
The behavior of the people hurting you is terrifying. It's violent bully behavior. It's completely unacceptable for anyone to do to another person. It's truly awful.
Racism and stereotyping are not the same, or even really comparable. Racism is supported by several hundred years of ongoing history in which groups of people have been systemically and brutally oppressed. Does that mean that all white people have easy lives? Of course not, and I'm sorry for what happened to you. But there is a WORLD of difference between the stereotype that all white American men are rich and the legacy of American racism.
This is true and I don't agree with racism. I grew up in a very culture diverse environment which I am grateful for. However because of where I lived, white was the minority and I got lashed out merely because I was white. I realize there are years of oppression for races, as a kid I didn't know the severity in the way I do now, but I also got treated like crap and called things I didn't deserve because of the mistreatment of others that I had no control over. Racism can be applied to anyone.
No. No, it can't. "Reverse racism" is not a thing.
jerseyjaybirdAJLcharminglife I've clearly misunderstood the type of prejudice I've experienced and I apologize for that ignorance on my part.
When I mentioned that I had experienced people stereotyping whites as horrible racists it was based on personal experiences. In school a group of two girls and guy (Hispanic) would walk behind me when I walked home from school and call me names based on me being white. It escalated to me being "white trash" and them throwing rocks and me. And using a stick to cut my legs. Then the older girl told me she was going to do a drive by of me house and kill me and my "fucking white family" at this point I told our principle and nothing was done about it. She then organized a bigger group of people to attack me on the way home from school. Another instance was a group of black guys telling me they wished they could rape and kill me because I was white and it would be payback for their people.
I took that racism but with what you all explained above I see more clearly the difference between racism and prejudice. I sincerely apologize.
I don't think you need to apologize (at least to me) but use this as a learning experience. Read the article msmerymac posted - Unpacking the Invisible Backpack by Peggy McIntosh. I still remember the first time I read it and how eye-opening it was.
I'm really sorry those things happened to you when you were growing up.
jerseyjaybirdAJLcharminglife I've clearly misunderstood the type of prejudice I've experienced and I apologize for that ignorance on my part.
When I mentioned that I had experienced people stereotyping whites as horrible racists it was based on personal experiences. In school a group of two girls and guy (Hispanic) would walk behind me when I walked home from school and call me names based on me being white. It escalated to me being "white trash" and them throwing rocks and me. And using a stick to cut my legs. Then the older girl told me she was going to do a drive by of me house and kill me and my "fucking white family" at this point I told our principle and nothing was done about it. She then organized a bigger group of people to attack me on the way home from school. Another instance was a group of black guys telling me they wished they could rape and kill me because I was white and it would be payback for their people.
I took that racism but with what you all explained above I see more clearly the difference between racism and prejudice. I sincerely apologize.
That's not racism. That's dealing with shitty asshole dickfucks that are using your race as an excuse to be hateful.
I recognize that now after the very generous clarifications above. I sincerely apologize that I was ignorant of the difference. I see how that is offensive, it was absolutely NOT my intent to be offensive. As I stated in a different post I don't have tolerance for racism toward others and in low way meant to make it seem like I thought it was.
I don't feel that believing racism applies to all races is making it out to be a victim or marginalizing.
It's very possible I am Misunderstanding what you are saying and I will admit that communication is not my strong point.
You're saying that when white people may get a small taste of prejudice or racism, that it is dangerous. It's not. Or for damn sure it isn't significantly dangerous. There are outliers to every case. Inconvenient or uncomfortable, yes. There is simply not enough representation for white people in stereotypes for it to be as remotely dangerous to them as it is minorities.
So, someone saying that you're rich is dangerous like being viewed as a thug is dangerous, it's insulting. And ignorant. And privileged.
I was not referring to the "rich" sentiment as the one that was dangerous. I meant that if people classify all white people as horrible racists that was dangerous. I feel like it's dangerous because it perpetuates the gap that is already there and doesn't help there to be a chance for us to close the gap of racism.
I was not referring to the "rich" sentiment as the one that was dangerous. I meant that if people classify all white people as horrible racists that was dangerous. I feel like it's dangerous because it perpetuates the gap that is already there and doesn't help there to be a chance for us to close the gap of racism.
No, again. Not dangerous to white people. The "danger" you speak of in the bolded part, negatively affects minorities. It is dangerous to minorities. White people are still on the upper, safe, non-threatening side of it all.
If racism is going to have the gap closed, white people need to wake up, educate themselves on racism, and get over the discomfort of being called racist (or even the assumption that people might think that). Chances are, you've done some racist shit. Intentional or not. It is systematic and ingrained into people. See Chris Rock's comments on white people needing to progress more, because black people are and have been dealing with this for centuries.
I was saying it is dangerous. Period. We can't and won't progress if we all sit around categorizing people by color and what we think of that said color. This isn't the case but say every other race believed whole heartedly that every white person out there was born and bread to hate all other races and we would never accept them. How in the world would progress ever be made?
In the past I have probably done something racist. Does that make me a racist person? No. Do I think any races is above or below another? Absolutely not. To me we were all made by the same creator and are the same. We are people. I hope it changes for the better.
No, again. Not dangerous to white people. The "danger" you speak of in the bolded part, negatively affects minorities. It is dangerous to minorities. White people are still on the upper, safe, non-threatening side of it all.
If racism is going to have the gap closed, white people need to wake up, educate themselves on racism, and get over the discomfort of being called racist (or even the assumption that people might think that). Chances are, you've done some racist shit. Intentional or not. It is systematic and ingrained into people. See Chris Rock's comments on white people needing to progress more, because black people are and have been dealing with this for centuries.
I was saying it is dangerous. Period. We can't and won't progress if we all sit around categorizing people by color and what we think of that said color. This isn't the case but say every other race believed whole heartedly that every white person out there was born and bread to hate all other races and we would never accept them. How in the world would progress ever be made?
In the past I have probably done something racist. Does that make me a racist person? No. Do I think any races is above or below another? Absolutely not. To me we were all made by the same creator and are the same. We are people. I hope it changes for the better.
Then perhaps the onus needs to be on the WHITE people to stop doing the categorizing (i.e. stereotyping) and differential treatment of minorities. The first step is when you (the collective white people) recognize that it's actually happening. Then you listen. You empathize. You call out the behavior. You make steps to change the system. The minorities don't have a responsibility to change their behavior to make the system work better for them. The white people hold all the power in making a change in the system since we set up the system in the first place.
No, again. Not dangerous to white people. The "danger" you speak of in the bolded part, negatively affects minorities. It is dangerous to minorities. White people are still on the upper, safe, non-threatening side of it all.
If racism is going to have the gap closed, white people need to wake up, educate themselves on racism, and get over the discomfort of being called racist (or even the assumption that people might think that). Chances are, you've done some racist shit. Intentional or not. It is systematic and ingrained into people. See Chris Rock's comments on white people needing to progress more, because black people are and have been dealing with this for centuries.
I was saying it is dangerous. Period. We can't and won't progress if we all sit around categorizing people by color and what we think of that said color.This isn't the case but say every other race believed whole heartedly that every white person out there was born and bread to hate all other races and we would never accept them. How in the world would progress ever be made?
In the past I have probably done something racist. Does that make me a racist person? No. Do I think any races is above or below another? Absolutely not. To me we were all made by the same creator and are the same. We are people. I hope it changes for the better.
Oh lawd, no. No, no.
Please re-read your comments and think about what you're saying because I don't think you get it yet. People ARE categorized by race/ethnicity. Avoiding that categorization isn't going to make racism go away. All of us pretending we're blind to race, that doesn't make institutionalized racism suddenly disappear.
If every single member of a non-white racial or ethnic category believed that all white people were racists, so what? Whites still have the institutional power. That will not change until white people get behind PoC to make it change.
I was saying it is dangerous. Period. We can't and won't progress if we all sit around categorizing people by color and what we think of that said color.This isn't the case but say every other race believed whole heartedly that every white person out there was born and bread to hate all other races and we would never accept them. How in the world would progress ever be made?
In the past I have probably done something racist. Does that make me a racist person? No. Do I think any races is above or below another? Absolutely not. To me we were all made by the same creator and are the same. We are people. I hope it changes for the better.
Oh lawd, no. No, no.
Please re-read your comments and think about what you're saying because I don't think you get it yet. People ARE categorized by race/ethnicity. Avoiding that categorization isn't going to make racism go away. All of us pretending we're blind to race, that doesn't make institutionalized racism suddenly disappear.
If every single member of a non-white racial or ethnic category believed that all white people were racists, so what? Whites still have the institutional power. That will not change until white people get behind PoC to make it change.
No I get it. I think the problem...I glean this from the responses is that what I want to get across is not getting across at all. I'm not going to pretend I am amazing at communicating because I'm not. I know what it is that I am meaning, and it's not coming across in my posts because when you all respond and are telling me what I'm saying I can see that clearly....I am not being clear enough. So I give up. I don't blame you for not understanding me if I'm not able to clearly get my thoughts on paper, but that also means that we are going to go round and round of me trying to say what I mean, failing at it, and then being entirely misunderstood.
You think this is okay because "this is how Mexican's dress; this is who they are." Right? How can something be offensive if it's true? Yes? But that's actually where the racism comes in, that you can reduce an entire population of people into this sloppy, negative caricature of what it means it be a Mexican. That's what's offensive and hurtful.
Some people need it spelled out for them in order for them to really understand...there is nothin wrong with that if the person learns from it.
That is very true, and if you're taking any of this in, that's awesome.
My frustration is in how prevalent these misconceptions are and how difficult they can be to detach themselves from people's mindsets.
Definitely. I can understand the frustration. I'm grateful that there were a few people in this thread that literally broke it down in a way that hadn't been presented to me before and showed me where what I thought was one thing was actually flawed. There are most certainly other subjects that I am not well versed in whether it was because how I was or wasn't raised or just was never exposed to, but I'm open to someone schooling me so I don't go the rest of my life thinking/believing something inaccurate.