Let's kick off racialist Wednesday!

[iammalcolmx]

Yes I agree!!

Also I had to walk out of Kroger yesterday when someone tried to pick me up by saying" What's up little red girl" I replied bu getting an ugly look on my face and said " WHAT DID YOU JUST CALL ME?"

[orangeblossom]

Yes, I mean it's not even conjecture. It's fact. Studies have shown that a while make with a high school diploma is still likely to do better than a black male with a high school diploma of even a college degree.

I mean look af the big Hopkins study, saying your life was determined on 1st grade, and that the white miles in the study did better than their white counterparts, in part due to contacts and such.

[omgzombies]

Feb 4, 2015 10:25:11 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Yes I agree!!

Also I had to walk out of Kroger yesterday when someone tried to pick me up by saying" What's up little red girl" I replied bu getting an ugly look on my face and said " WHAT DID YOU JUST CALL ME?"

I may be showing my ignorance here, but I have to know, what does that even mean?  Where you wearing red?  Is it an allusion to something else?  My google-fu is not working today.

[omgzombies]

Feb 4, 2015 10:34:30 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Feb 4, 2015 10:31:13 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

I may be showing my ignorance here, but I have to know, what does that even mean?  Where you wearing red?  Is it an allusion to something else?  My google-fu is not working today.

red = red bone = lightskinned

Thank you, the translation is much appreciated.

[laurenpetro]

i don't know anyone who thinks this at all.

[pixy0stix]

How do you define successful?

[pixy0stix]

Feb 4, 2015 10:44:18 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Feb 4, 2015 10:41:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

How do you define successful?

Gainfully employed and able to provide for a family.

Ok, so how do you define gainfully employed? White collar job? Blue collar job?

[pixy0stix]

FWIW, I agree with you, but I just wanted to get a better handle on the perspective.

[NitaX]

Without a doubt. I once thought that I was shallow for not giving serious consideration to a guy because he didn't complete college. In the nearly year that I dated him, I watched him struggle to find employment and I decided then that I wouldn't travel that path. Nice guy, intelligent but having a degree would have opened up more doors for him.

One of the biggest things that sealed the deal for my H was that he was working on his master's degree when we met. He was told that he was going to be laid off from his job last year this same time. He found a new job in like 6 weeks and spent no time without a paycheck. I shudder to think how hard that could have been if he didn't have a degree.

And ditto orangeblossom. It is a cold, hard fact that your earning potential as a black person without a degree is well below that of white folks. And even if you have a degree, it's my understanding that it takes even longer to move up the ladder. My H's boss (CIO) is like *maybe* 32 or 33. Dude doesn't have a master's degree. I'm not entirely sure that he even finished his undergrad, but I don't know for sure. My H is 37. He was just now hired for a manager's position in a field that he's worked in for 10-12 years. And this isn't some little rinky-dinky shop I'm talking here. It's a decent sized firm with multiple offices in different cities.

[Queen Mamadala]

Feb 4, 2015 10:25:11 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Yes I agree!!

Also I had to walk out of Kroger yesterday when someone tried to pick me up by saying" What's up little red girl" I replied bu getting an ugly look on my face and said " WHAT DID YOU JUST CALL ME?"

Wow! "Red girl" ... I haven't heard that in ages. But "high yellow" was something my mom got a lot growing up. And Kroger, I miss Atlanta, except for the ungodly humidity.

[NitaX]

Feb 4, 2015 10:46:07 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Feb 4, 2015 10:44:18 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Gainfully employed and able to provide for a family.

Ok, so how do you define gainfully employed? White collar job? Blue collar job?

Just for starter's let's say being able to earn above the poverty line. While my sister has a trade, she doesn't have a degree and truly struggles to provide for her family. 

I'm also watching my younger cousin and her fiance' struggle too. One baby, another on the way, and neither of them are college educated. (They are in their mid-twenties, so not exactly teens I'm talking here). I can't lie if I didn't feel saddened to hear that baby 2 was on the way because it's going to set them back financially.  I want them to do well because they are good people and love each other so much. I just know that eventually the finances are going to strain them. 

[ringstrue]

Hmm I would say its white privileged and also UMC privilege. Like off the top of my head I know of a handful of computer programmers w/o a college degree who support their families and are pretty passionate about the "you don't need a degree" thing, and half of them are not white. BUT, they did attend college but just dropped out and have a lot of social/financial advantages in general.

If you are talking blue collar jobs then I could see that being much more only white privilege.

[wawa]

I think the documented racist history of many (most? all?) labor unions definitely backs you up here. Even outside unions, the good old boy network is alive and well when it comes to plumbers and electricians and car mechanics and such - perhaps even more so than in the business world.

It's all word of mouth referrals and getting hired because you worked with so and so's uncle Tim for a bit and he says you're a good egg - does so and so's uncle Tim like and trust 20 year old black guys? I mean...he's not racist, but he wouldn't want his daughter dating one.

Maybe that's just Guns and bibles PA and the more rural areas of MD (uhhh, and Anne Arundel county), since that's where I know and where I've seen it, but somehow I doubt it.

[CrazyLucky]

Is it white privilege or just dumb? It's getting harder and harder to be successful without some kind of education beyond high school, whether it's college or a trade. Where I work, the guys who have been here 30 years came straight out of high school and make a good living. The requirements have changed over the years though. Now, to be a technician here, you need at least 2 years of college or a trade.

[downtoearth]

I think I would be pissed if my (white) kid didn't consider college - I mean, it's been shown that with a college degree (even in a field you don't go into) you earn more and have more financial security for your entire career. A trade degree would also be important for me b/c even if you could just go into an apprenticeship and then to work, I still think the long-term financial security is in having a degree. And @mx and orangeblossom made the most important points - trade/union jobs are still primarily white and white people with only high school diplomas earn more than black people with college degrees, so if my kid was not white, I would be pushing/talking-up college more than ever.

[downtoearth]

Feb 4, 2015 11:07:11 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Hmm I would say its white privileged and also UMC privilege. Like off the top of my head I know of a handful of computer programmers w/o a college degree who support their families and are pretty passionate about the "you don't need a degree" thing, and half of them are not white. BUT, they did attend college but just dropped out and have a lot of social/financial advantages in general.

If you are talking blue collar jobs then I could see that being much more only white privilege.

Now that you mention this, I also know two (white) computer programmers/project managers for computer systems that make over $100k/yr without a college degree. Is this an area where a degree isn't as common? 

That being said, one of them had dropped out of college and just went back in the last 4 years and finished his degree because he still felt it was holding him back from going further.

[redwino]

I completely agree. I think about this with our plumber who is a small father and son setup. They are great and we always recommend them to people but in the back of my mind I'm always wondering if white people are comfortable with having black tradesmen in their home. They were referred to us by our black realtor and I assume that black people make up the bulk of their business because of our conversations. That's tough on a business in my area.

College will definitely be the expectation in my house but my jobs makes me more of a realist and i know that might not happen. I really don't want my kids to struggle like many of my cousins without degrees. It's a hard life.

[jlt19]

Coming from a trades Union, how do we attract more minorities? Our contractors are in desperate need of minorities because a lot of big jobs that are funded by the city requires a certain percentage to be minority. It's definitely not lack of contractors willing to hire. My Union has an incubator to assist minority owned businesses and we partner with a local careers center for HS aged kids, but we're still looking. The jobs are there, but I wonder if it's the atmosphere on the jobsite(racist/sexist) that keeps minorities away?

[thejackpot]

Def WP, the opportunities for black males without college degrees is so different than their white counterparts.

[laurenpetro]

Feb 4, 2015 12:36:37 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Feb 4, 2015 10:40:43 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

i don't know anyone who thinks this at all.

Are you saying that you don't know any white people who think their kid will be able to be successful without a college degree?

I agree with sou. While I do know many white people who think their kids have to go to college and it isn't even an option, I know many who don't think it is a big deal. That their kids will be able to do x,y,z without it and then they give a list of people who didn't go to college and are fine. And I am not talking about 'oh look at Bill Gates'. 

basically, yeah.  the few people i know who aren't pushing their kids to go to college don't have a degree themselves and are ok with job-bouncing and unemployment, etc.  i guess it's just a matter of "it was ok for me" which is ironic since one guy learned a trade and lost his job after 20+ years and now can't get hired in that profession.

i'm not saying this is a "I SEE ALL RACES!!!" thing.  i think everyone i know pretty much sees their kids being fucked without a degree.

[cville]

About half of my (white) cousins think so. Guess what they all do? Union construction jobs in (mostly white) upstate Pennsylvania!

So, yeah, it's absolutely white privilege. And also dumb w/r/t how the world is going in terms of the major economic drivers in the U.S. But mainly white privilege.

[downtoearth]

Feb 4, 2015 12:36:37 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Feb 4, 2015 10:40:43 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

i don't know anyone who thinks this at all.

Are you saying that you don't know any white people who think their kid will be able to be successful without a college degree?

I agree with sou. While I do know many white people who think their kids have to go to college and it isn't even an option, I know many who don't think it is a big deal. That their kids will be able to do x,y,z without it and then they give a list of people who didn't go to college and are fine. And I am not talking about 'oh look at Bill Gates'. 

I don't know anyone who thinks like this. Maybe it's that I'm 37, so most of our friends are not full millennials who are jaded about their loans and job opportunities.  Most of our friends/family have valued their college degrees.  Even if they chose to drop out of the work force still value their undergrad and graduate educations and plan/hope their kids will go to college. I only know about 5 people that did not get their degrees and of those 5, 2 have gone back to finish degrees, 2 have said out loud that they regret not doing that, and one is a 21 year old who we pester about going back.  Maybe I don't know anyone b/c we are white, UMC, college-educated people.

My BIL is a finish carpenter and still regrets not having a college degree to go with his trade.  He is talking about going back now to get a degree so he can teach the trade.  His oldest, my niece, is the 21 yr old and dropped out of college and she is the only one who thinks she'll be fine.  She works at a taco restaurant and a CD store.  The rest of the family are often asking her what her plans are or what she is going to do for a career, etc. I know it's annoying to her, but it's clear that everyone is trying (even financially) to incentivize her into getting a degree (she's really into and good at art, but anti-art school/degree for some reason).

Then again, we come from a family where our grandparents on one side did not go to college and regretted it and tried to get all their kids to do college (4 of their 6 kids finished college) and on the other side, our grandfather was a PhD History professor at numerous colleges.  Oh and my Great-Great Aunt was the first woman to graduate from a university in Chicago, so of course, we assumed college was the norm.  I'm guessing in a family where they worked in Unions in the 70s-90s might feel different.

[orangeblossom]

Feb 4, 2015 12:32:58 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

Feb 4, 2015 10:27:23 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

Yes, I mean it's not even conjecture. It's fact. Studies have shown that a while make with a high school diploma is still likely to do better than a black male with a high school diploma of even a college degree.

I mean look af the big Hopkins study, saying your life was determined on 1st grade, and that the white miles in the study did better than their white counterparts, in part due to contacts and such.

What is this study?

This may be unrelated, but interesting, nevertheless.  I remember a study from at least 20 years ago (I read about it in an AFAM studies class on educating black children in undergrad) that showed that black males were consistently testing ahead of every other race and gender segment in first grade.  By 4th grade, they were consistently testing behind every other group.

With regard to the OP, I think it's more than privilege--more like hubris--to think that anyone will be able to be financially successful without a college degree.  I don't know any people of any race who believe that in '15.

Feb 4, 2015 11:36:49 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Coming from a trades Union, how do we attract more minorities? Our contractors are in desperate need of minorities because a lot of big jobs that are funded by the city requires a certain percentage to be minority. It's definitely not lack of contractors willing to hire. My Union has an incubator to assist minority owned businesses and we partner with a local careers center for HS aged kids, but we're still looking. The jobs are there, but I wonder if it's the atmosphere on the jobsite(racist/sexist) that keeps minorities away?

If I were in this situation, I would host a job fair and advertise it on black radio stations.  I would also think about building a relationship with one of the morning show radio hosts and asking them to discuss it. There are definitely high school grads of color who would jump at these jobs.  If they're not, I feel like they just don't know.

I'll look for it when I get home, but it was a sociology stidy that looked at first graders in Baltimore until they were about 30.

I think the Baltimore Sun, Washington Post, Altantic and NPR all did an article on it at one point.

[cookiemdough]

Feb 4, 2015 11:18:34 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Feb 4, 2015 11:07:11 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Hmm I would say its white privileged and also UMC privilege. Like off the top of my head I know of a handful of computer programmers w/o a college degree who support their families and are pretty passionate about the "you don't need a degree" thing, and half of them are not white. BUT, they did attend college but just dropped out and have a lot of social/financial advantages in general.

If you are talking blue collar jobs then I could see that being much more only white privilege.

Now that you mention this, I also know two (white) computer programmers/project managers for computer systems that make over $100k/yr without a college degree. Is this an area where a degree isn't as common? 

That being said, one of them had dropped out of college and just went back in the last 4 years and finished his degree because he still felt it was holding him back from going further.

Were they previously in the military? I know some IT people that have very good paying jobs but it was based on skills they learned while in the armed services that opened the door for them.

[downtoearth]

Feb 4, 2015 13:09:11 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Feb 4, 2015 11:18:34 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Now that you mention this, I also know two (white) computer programmers/project managers for computer systems that make over $100k/yr without a college degree. Is this an area where a degree isn't as common? 

That being said, one of them had dropped out of college and just went back in the last 4 years and finished his degree because he still felt it was holding him back from going further.

Were they previously in the military? I know some IT people that have very good paying jobs but it was based on skills they learned while in the armed services that opened the door for them.

Nope, white dudes from good high schools, is all I know. One grew up morman, does that change anything?

[cookiemdough]

Feb 4, 2015 13:10:17 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Feb 4, 2015 13:09:11 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Were they previously in the military? I know some IT people that have very good paying jobs but it was based on skills they learned while in the armed services that opened the door for them.

Nope, white dudes from good high schools, is all I know. One grew up morman, does that change anything?

Unfortunately I am going to have to go along with white privilege for that one, lol.

[nomad100]

Feb 4, 2015 13:06:19 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Feb 4, 2015 12:36:37 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Are you saying that you don't know any white people who think their kid will be able to be successful without a college degree?

I agree with sou. While I do know many white people who think their kids have to go to college and it isn't even an option, I know many who don't think it is a big deal. That their kids will be able to do x,y,z without it and then they give a list of people who didn't go to college and are fine. And I am not talking about 'oh look at Bill Gates'. 

I don't know anyone who thinks like this.  

Me neither.  

Everyone that I know who didn't go past HS and has kids is pushing for them to get more education.  Even those who went to college and then dropped out are making plans for their kids to go to college.  

Maybe it is because here in MI it seems that everyone knows, or is related to, someone who only has a HS diploma or GED and then worked the assembly line for years and now is out of work and can't find another job because employers are requiring degrees.

DH doesn't yet have his BA and tells his kids all.the.time how much harder it has been for him to get a head.  He is about 20 credit hours away from his BA and he can't wait to get done because having that degree will open doors the way that years of experience often don't (which is crazy).    And he is in IT, where you can get away with not having a degree but many in-house management jobs require a degree, no matter what your experience is.

And we are white MC/UMC people.  

[Vespasia]

@songforyou Here's an article about the study.
hub.jhu.edu/2014/06/02/karl-alexander-long-shadow-research

Findings were published in a book last year:
www.amazon.com/The-Long-Shadow-Disadvantaged-Sociological/dp/0871540339

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2015 10:22:51 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I think it is white privilege to say "my kid will be able to be successful without a college degree" especially when thinking of black males.

Any blahhh people agree with me? iammalcolmx NitaX @smorriso cookiemdough summer @barefootbarista @helenabonhamcarter @246baje pennypenny orangeblossom

Outside of a trade or the military, yes.

But then my daughter fixed her mouth to tell me there are plenty of good jobs you can get without going to college, right mommy?

[wawa]

To add my personal anecdotes:
I know a few people who aren't really into the idea of college for their kids. They're people who work trade jobs now - and some of them actually do have degrees, but they aren't using them in the slightest and are doing jobs they could have gotten with no degree at all. So if they'd just worked those 4 years they'd be making more now and have no loans....

Also MH is weirdly ambivalent about college for our kids. Which is...weird, since he's also super gung-ho about saving for it, and both has and uses a 4 year degree and a masters. Go figure. I think it's that he often wishes he spent his days actually building things instead of stuck in an office engineering them.

All white folks. Until I became friends with these people I didn't know anybody for whom college wasn't a given. (like, come hell or high water, you WILL go to college was the message all my high school friends and obviously college friends got from their parents.)

Though suddenly I'm curious where my (biracial) SIL falls on the kids and college question. I know they aren't saving for it because they have no $$$. My brother went to college, but never finished and is now a machinist. SIL dropped out of high school and I'm not sure she even got around to getting her GED. She probably did. She could pass the test in a hot second - she's a smarty pants. She's worked a bunch of random retail/service jobs, and is a tattoo artist. Their kids are both very book smart and love school.