California Moves to Ban All Vaccination Exemptions

[Deleted]

California Moves to Ban All Vaccination Exemptions
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/02/california-moves-ban-all-vaccination-exemptions

—By Kevin Drum
| Thu Feb. 5, 2015 11:13 AM EST


Here's the latest vaccination news from the Golden State:

Gov. Jerry Brown, who preserved religious exemptions to state vaccination requirements in 2012, on Wednesday appeared open to legislation that would eliminate all but medical waivers.

The governor's new flexibility highlighted a growing momentum toward limiting vaccination exemptions partly blamed for the state's worst outbreak of measles since 2000 and flare-ups of whooping cough and other preventable illnesses.

....Earlier, five lawmakers had said they would introduce legislation that would abolish all religious and other personal-beliefs exemptions for parents who do not want their children vaccinated before starting school.

I grew up in a Christian Science family, and that makes me slightly conflicted on this subject. Partly this is because it left me with some residual sympathy for genuine religious objections, and partly it's because the number of exemptions for genuine religious reasons is actually pretty small—less than 3,000 per year in California, according to the Times story.

But in the end, there's just too big a can of worms when you try to distinguish "genuine" religious objections from personal objections that might be based on some kind of spiritual belief. If this were purely a personal choice, I'd go ahead and let parents decide. But it's not. It's a public health issue, and our top priority should be protecting public health. This requires vaccination rates above 95 percent both statewide and in every local area. As the map on the right shows, we're not getting that these days.

There's no state in the nation that's more sympathetic to religious freedom than Mississippi. If they can ban exemptions for religious reasons, so can all the rest of us. The anti-vaxxers used to be an oddball nuisance, but in recent years they've turned deadly—and that means it's past time to start taking them seriously. No more exemptions for deadly communicable diseases.

[Velar Fricative]

I like this idea, but will it hold up constitutionally? That's my main question.

As for Mississippi, I wonder if anyone there has even attempted to fight that law. Someone might now that there is more publicity.

[karinothing]

I am really interested in this. I actually didn't realize that Mississippi banned religious exemptions. I figured there be a SCOTUS battle over that. But I mean if it is constitutional to ban religious exemptions (which I think it should be since I think the state has a compelling interest to protect the public health (and it seems like it would be narrowly tailored).

I would imagine the medical waivers would still be available for folks that had serious issues. Like a kid with cancer or someone who had a legit reaction?

[meshaliuknits]

heyjude you'll have to let us know if your FB implodes because of this.

[sangria]

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

[Chirp]

Feb 5, 2015 13:33:28 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I am really interested in this. I actually didn't realize that Mississippi banned religious exemptions. I figured there be a SCOTUS battle over that. But I mean if it is constitutional to ban religious exemptions (which I think it should be since I think the state has a compelling interest to protect the public health (and it seems like it would be narrowly tailored).

I would imagine the medical waivers would still be available for folks that had serious issues. Like a kid with cancer or someone who had a legit reaction?

Only those who have a real medical reason to skip the vaccinations would be able to opt out. No more exemptions for religious or personal reasons.

Basically, produce a legit doctor's note or get in line... this might sting a little.

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 5, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5 sangria said:

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

[heyjude]

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:41 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5 sangria said:

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

I think I read they actually believe in vaccines.

[Velar Fricative]

Feb 5, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5 sangria said:

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

The one lady here who keeps trying to sue anyone and everyone to get her kid to attend NYC public schools claims she doesn't vaccinate due to her religious beliefs. She's Catholic. Guess what? So's everyone else here and everyone else gets their kids vaccinated (even for Catholic school!).

My one guess would be Jehovah's Witnesses but there were several in my school when I was younger so I don't actually know if they were exempt or not. Probably not.

[ESF]

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:14 GMT -5 Chirp said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:33:28 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I am really interested in this. I actually didn't realize that Mississippi banned religious exemptions. I figured there be a SCOTUS battle over that. But I mean if it is constitutional to ban religious exemptions (which I think it should be since I think the state has a compelling interest to protect the public health (and it seems like it would be narrowly tailored).

I would imagine the medical waivers would still be available for folks that had serious issues. Like a kid with cancer or someone who had a legit reaction?

Only those who have a real medical reason to skip the vaccinations would be able to opt out. No more exemptions for religious or personal reasons.

Basically, produce a legit doctor's note or get in line... this might sting a little.

There is a cottage industry of doctors that just have gotten sick of the grind and do nothing but write medical marijuana prescriptions for "sick" people. 

I wonder if a similar cottage industry will develop here.  "Go see Dr. Smith, his office is right above the yoga studio, he'll take care of you."

[Chirp]

Feb 5, 2015 13:40:06 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:41 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

I think I read they actually believe in vaccines.

It's wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but it's still an interesting read...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

[lg28]

Feb 5, 2015 13:43:57 GMT -5 ESF said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:14 GMT -5 Chirp said:

Only those who have a real medical reason to skip the vaccinations would be able to opt out. No more exemptions for religious or personal reasons.

Basically, produce a legit doctor's note or get in line... this might sting a little.

There is a cottage industry of doctors that just have gotten sick of the grind and do nothing but write medical marijuana prescriptions for "sick" people. 

I wonder if a similar cottage industry will develop here.  "Go see Dr. Smith, his office is right above the yoga studio, he'll take care of you."

I doubt it provided that chiropractors arent allowed to write exemption notes. Real MD's do find legit reasons to prescribe marijuana, but I doubt they would be as sympathetic to vaccine-skeptics. Or maybe I'm too naive....I haven't seen what it's like in CA!

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 5, 2015 13:43:57 GMT -5 ESF said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:14 GMT -5 Chirp said:

Only those who have a real medical reason to skip the vaccinations would be able to opt out. No more exemptions for religious or personal reasons.

Basically, produce a legit doctor's note or get in line... this might sting a little.

There is a cottage industry of doctors that just have gotten sick of the grind and do nothing but write medical marijuana prescriptions for "sick" people. 

I wonder if a similar cottage industry will develop here.  "Go see Dr. Smith, his office is right above the yoga studio, he'll take care of you."

Don't knock medical mj! It's helping keep the BBQ spot alive!

[ajj]

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:41 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5 sangria said:

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

Yes, I was raised a Christian Scientist and that is true. However, I was vaccinated, my mother was vaccinated and my grandmother who was still going to church until she passed last year, always went to doctors and took medicine that was needed and always received her vaccines.

Most of the people in the church that we knew were like this, too. However, there are a lot that do not believe in the use of medicine. The religion was based on the rejection of medicine and the belief that God would heal. 

[heyjude]

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:41 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5 sangria said:

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

"Even the Christian Science Church, which preaches the power of prayer to promote healing, does not oppose vaccination, spokesman Eric Nelson said."

From here: www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27433439/measles-outbreak-raises-fury-over-californias-vaccine-exemptions

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 5, 2015 13:51:09 GMT -5 ajj said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:41 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

Yes, I was raised a Christian Scientist and that is true. However, I was vaccinated, my mother was vaccinated and my grandmother who was still going to church until she passed last year, always went to doctors and took medicine that was needed and always received her vaccines.

Most of the people in the church that we knew were like this, too. However, there are a lot that do not believe in the use of medicine. The religion was based on the rejection of medicine and the belief that God would heal. 

I don't, like, mean to turn this into an AMA, but I'm curious. If a CS breaks a leg, they go and get it set, right? They don't just pray for the bones to align and heal? Is it mostly like the "I have cancer so I will pray for remission" thing?

[alexis]

Feb 5, 2015 13:32:56 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I like this idea, but will it hold up constitutionally? That's my main question.

As for Mississippi, I wonder if anyone there has even attempted to fight that law. Someone might now that there is more publicity.

There is currently a movement in MS to allow personal belief exemptions.

This has been taken before the MS supreme court before and they came down on the side of parental religious freedom not trumping children's rights to proper health care.  This quote is from their decision in 1979:


“Is it mandated by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution that innocent children, too young to decide for themselves, are to be denied the protection against crippling and death that immunization provides because of a religious belief adhered to by a parent or parents?”

[ajj]

Feb 5, 2015 13:54:14 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:51:09 GMT -5 ajj said:

Yes, I was raised a Christian Scientist and that is true. However, I was vaccinated, my mother was vaccinated and my grandmother who was still going to church until she passed last year, always went to doctors and took medicine that was needed and always received her vaccines.

Most of the people in the church that we knew were like this, too. However, there are a lot that do not believe in the use of medicine. The religion was based on the rejection of medicine and the belief that God would heal. 

I don't, like, mean to turn this into an AMA, but I'm curious. If a CS breaks a leg, they go and get it set, right? They don't just pray for the bones to align and heal? Is it mostly like the "I have cancer so I will pray for remission" thing?

I'm going to be honest, I knew a woman who broke her arm and did not have it put in a cast. I believe she did go to the doctor, but did not take any meds or have it put in the cast. I was a teen at the time, so my memory is a little foggy on it. I have not been to church since I was a teen and my family has always gone to doctors and used medicine. So, I can't speak for others in the religion. I just know what the religion is based on and many people have a very strong belief that God will heal.  My grandmother always said that God provided medicine so why wouldn't she take it. With the article that heyjude posted, I'm hoping that they are changing their stance on medicine a little.

[zizibet]

My pat4ernal grandfather was raised CS. When he broke his leg as a kid, his parents did not have it set. I don't know about modern CS.
Medical exemptions would likely include kids doing chemo, for pertussis, kids with epilepsy.

[meshaliuknits]

ajj thank you for answering

[alexis]

While I believe religious freedom is incredibly important, this seems like a classic case of the right to swing your arms ending before someone's face. Not only do exemptions endanger the lives the unvaccinated children, they endanger entire communities, particularly with today's ease of travel. An individual's right to religious freedom doesn't extend that far.

[epphd]

The data for Seattle are really astounding. Here, you can opt out of vaccination for personal, medical, or religious reasons. Personal beats medical opt outs by like 20:1. Personal: religious is like 20-50:1. Which is to say that there are vanishingly few who opt out for religious reasons, even at distinctly religious schools. For instance, one Christian school with a 36% exemption rate has zero exemptions for medical or religious reasons. In fact I can only find on Christian school (meaning has the word Christian in it) that has even as close to as many exemptions on religious grounds as on personal grounds, and there are still 50% more personal objectors than religious objectors.

[sugarglider]

I disagree with this part of the article:

But in the end, there's just too big a can of worms when you try to distinguish "genuine" religious objections from personal objections that might be based on some kind of spiritual belief.

It's done all the time in religious discrimination suits. "Sincerely held religious belief." It has a legal definition.

I don't think it'll necessarily be held unconstitutional by striking the religious exemption as well as the personal belief exemption, but why risk it? Address the real/big harm instead of gambling on a constitutional issue.

[ESF]

Feb 5, 2015 14:24:21 GMT -5 sugarglider said:

I disagree with this part of the article:

But in the end, there's just too big a can of worms when you try to distinguish "genuine" religious objections from personal objections that might be based on some kind of spiritual belief.

It's done all the time in religious discrimination suits. "Sincerely held religious belief." It has a legal definition.

I don't think it'll necessarily be held unconstitutional by striking the religious exemption as well as the personal belief exemption, but why risk it? Address the real/big harm instead of gambling on a constitutional issue.

No, I don't think this is the case in all contexts.  That may be true for federal civil rights laws, i.e. laws governing the relationship between private business and people, but I don't think that's the case for analyzing government actions.

SCOTUS said in Hobby Lobby that (1) it's not the court's job to question whether a belief is sincerely held, (2) rather whether government regulation unnecessarily infringes on it and if so, then (3) is there a  compelling enough reason to infringe on it.  The problem the dissent had with the opinion was their balancing test analysis, i.e. part two and part 3, not part one.  I understood part 1 to be fairly well-settled. 

[ESF]

As a follow up to the above, thinking about this more, I think that when you are dealing with constitutional questions, religious discrimination is generally subject to higher levels of scrutiny which put the burden of proof not he government. That's why all someone has to do is to come forward and says, "this violates my religious beliefs" and leave the rest up to the government. And fundamentally, I don't actually have a problem with that framework because I think the alternative would lead to a whole lot of Christians getting protected, and every other religious minority getting screwed. It's the balancing test is where things get screwed up.

That's why in this case, the fact that it's a child won't really matter too much. Supreme Court said years ago that Amish people didn't have to comply with state laws mandating school through age 16.

I don't think it's a slam dunk for either side. It's a hard, hard question.

[msmerymac]

Feb 5, 2015 13:47:11 GMT -5 lg28 said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:43:57 GMT -5 ESF said:

There is a cottage industry of doctors that just have gotten sick of the grind and do nothing but write medical marijuana prescriptions for "sick" people. 

I wonder if a similar cottage industry will develop here.  "Go see Dr. Smith, his office is right above the yoga studio, he'll take care of you."

I doubt it provided that chiropractors arent allowed to write exemption notes. Real MD's do find legit reasons to prescribe marijuana, but I doubt they would be as sympathetic to vaccine-skeptics. Or maybe I'm too naive....I haven't seen what it's like in CA!

The doctors who do nothing but provide medical marijuana prescriptions are real MDs, which is how they can do it. They sit at a desk and interview people all day, take cash, and write prescriptions for MJ for medical conditions that might be hard to definitively prove. Whiplash, migraine and back problems come to mind. Of course, there are legit medical issues for which MM gets proscribed, but it's pretty easy to prove you're going through chemo.

[msmerymac]

Feb 5, 2015 14:10:16 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Feb 5, 2015 14:01:35 GMT -5 Stan said:

I know I always bring all the things back to the military, but it's my frame of reference so forgive me.

My stepdad is a Quaker pacifist. He still had to register for selective service at 18 so he wouldn't be a criminal. If there had been a draft when he was of age, he would have had to undergo a lot of interviewing and spend a lot of time proving that he was a for real pacifist, a real Quaker, etc. They'd have chaplains interview him and offer opinions, etc. I feel like religious exemptions for vaccines should be that rigorous. Available, but extremely hard to get. You've got to prove the fuck out of that belief. So the Catholic example upthread would get a big denied, you're going to Vietnam stamp. Except it would be denied, injection straightaway.

While this would be an improvement over the current state of affairs, I still don't think this is OK.  Religion is personal and is not inherited - it's not race or ethnicity.  You should not get to force your religious beliefs upon your kid, especially when it may harm their health.

How would a 1 year old pass these types of interviews?

But people make choices on behalf of their minor children all the time. It's part of parenting. Parents get to decide what diet their child eats, what kind of housing they live in, make decisions regarding their education, their religious upbringing, and their medical care. 

[btdt]

Feb 5, 2015 13:40:06 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:37:41 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Christian Scientists maybe? Don't they (generally) believe in no medicine?

I think I read they actually believe in vaccines.

To me, saying "they believe in vaccines" is analogous to saying they believe in gravity. 

[ESF]

Feb 5, 2015 15:32:39 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Feb 5, 2015 13:47:11 GMT -5 lg28 said:

I doubt it provided that chiropractors arent allowed to write exemption notes. Real MD's do find legit reasons to prescribe marijuana, but I doubt they would be as sympathetic to vaccine-skeptics. Or maybe I'm too naive....I haven't seen what it's like in CA!

The doctors who do nothing but provide medical marijuana prescriptions are real MDs, which is how they can do it. They sit at a desk and interview people all day, take cash, and write prescriptions for MJ for medical conditions that might be hard to definitively prove. Whiplash, migraine and back problems come to mind. Of course, there are legit medical issues for which MM gets proscribed, but it's pretty easy to prove you're going through chemo.

From what I've heard, it's an excellent early retirement gig.  Charge $100 for a 20 minute appointment, and let the college kids roll in complaining about anxiety.   No med mal or insurance companies to worry about, minimal administrative paperwork, low overhead costs. Word of mouth travels fast on college campuses, and state law requires that the Rxs expire after maybe a year, so you've got a renewing client base.

I would think the anti-vax script writing gig would be exactly the same.  Yes, there'd be fewer doctors willing to do it, but there'd probably also be a smaller number of people needing them.

[jln]

Feb 5, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5 sangria said:

Does anyone know what religions have beliefs against vaccinations and why? I'm curious how widespread the religious exemption really is.

The problem with this is that while there are religions that are anti-vax, so many people use the religious exemption when they're not that religion.  It's a HUGE thing in Oregon to do that and I've read in mom's groups people advising others to use that exemption to avoid vaccinating.