Sydney, yes, we do need statistics to tell us how many people make what amount of money. Going on our anecdotal observations, gut feelings, and "common sense" is what gets us things like voter ID laws that supposedly stop non-existent voter fraid.
I don't favor eliminating minimum wage, but in order to solve a problem, it's important to fully understand the nature, scope, and causes of the problem. That requires data.
I did provide statistics. So did other people. It appears that some statistics are contradicting each other. Or you know...that statistics can be misleading. I'm 40 years old. Over 20 years of work and life experience is not an anectodal story. I didn't say my friend Bob make minimum wage therefore everyone does.
As I said, discussing what could happen if minimum wage was eliminated is one thing. The absolute denial that a large percentage of people in the US are making $10 an hour is another.
Here's another ... but I guess Virginia is the odd duck here right?
Average weekly wages in Virginia’s smaller counties All but 7 of the 122 counties in Virginia with employment below 75,000 had average weekly wages lower than the national average of $935. Highland County reported the lowest wage level at $458. The highest wage among Virginia’s 122 small counties was Goochland County’s $1,674, followed by Surry County’s $1,544. (See table 2.)
When all 134 counties in Virginia were considered, 121 had wages below the national average of $935. Seven reported average weekly wages below $500, 78 reported wages from $501 to $700, 34 had wages from $701 to $900, 8 had wages from $901 to $1,100, and 7 had wages above $1,101. Of the 13 counties with above-average wages, 7 were concentrated in the metropolitan area of Washington, D.C. and 4 were located in the Richmond area.
Thank God for this thread. I'd decided a few days ago that I couldn't handle the majority of posters here anymore and needed to make myself scarce but like Michael Corleone, it didn't last very long at all.
No one will answer it. History has proved time and time again that businesses will take advantage of workers if there is nothing to stop them. Not just history - current wages in China, sweatshops etc - pretty much everywhere in the world where there is not protection for workers, workers get abused.
If minimum wage was removed here, that wouldn't happen because...MAGIC!
Exactly.
Caden you are correct. It's purely anecdotal and just my goober friends and family who work for $10-12 an hour. They are certainly not representative of the US as a whole. Their jobs would not be impacted in the least should minimum wage disappear. In fact I'll tell them they need to buck up because no minimum wages means less unemployment yo!
And I wouldn't care how much money you did make. Hey my DH and I are DINKS who do pretty well ourselves. Eliminating minimum wage wouldn't affect us barely if at all. I was trying to think of the type of person who needed proof and numbers that a good portion of the US works for just above minimum and I was getting visions and Thurston and Lovey Howell.
I guess I'm just one of those suckers that cares for the people it will affect should it be eliminated. But they are only a small percentage according to your statistics so who gives a shit.
But where's the reference to Hitler and feeling sorry for her husband?
Ah, the "how do you sleep at night" allusion. And.....scene.
This is a good thing though, because now we can laugh all the way to the bank (while tripping over poor people, obviously) and not feel guilty! Someone else cares, so we don't have to! Yay!
For my serious comment - I think this thread is a good example of why people find it hard to waste their time trying to explain their position. Because no matter how many sources are given, or numbers, or how much time is taken in trying to explain a certain position, it doesn't end with a respectful "I see your point, but I still disagree." It ends with "You're so cold hearted, rolling around in your money!" It seems sometimes there is no acceptable response but, "I REPENT!!! I USED TO BE A COLDHEARTED MONEY HUNGRY CONSERVATIVE BUT NOW I SEE THE LIGHT!!!!"*
I mean, do people really want a discussion of various views and explanations of them? Or is the goal to reform every conservative you've ever met?
Ah, the "how do you sleep at night" allusion. And.....scene.
This is a good thing though, because now we can laugh all the way to the bank (while tripping over poor people, obviously) and not feel guilty! Someone else cares, so we don't have to! Yay!
For my serious comment - I think this thread is a good example of why people find it hard to waste their time trying to explain their position. Because no matter how many sources are given, or numbers, or how much time is taken in trying to explain a certain position, it doesn't end with a respectful "I see your point, but I still disagree." It ends with "You're so cold hearted, rolling around in your money!" It seems sometimes there is no acceptable response but, "I REPENT!!! I USED TO BE A COLDHEARTED MONEY HUNGRY CONSERVATIVE BUT NOW I SEE THE LIGHT!!!!"*
I mean, do people really want a discussion of various views and explanations of them? Or is the goal to reform every conservative you've ever met?
Indeed.
I was really hoping for a real discussion of the numbers and the economic theories behind each stance here because I honestly don't have an opinion either way and was curious to learn more. We were getting close...and then *blam* it all goes to shit.
It gets old and I'm not one of the people being accused of hating poor people.
Post by cookiemdough on Aug 10, 2012 11:32:41 GMT -5
I get the frustration, but it is also frustrating when one or two posters somehow prompt the "this is why I need to leave the board" posts.
There were quite a few who had respectful questions and wanted a decent dialogue and seemed open to wanting to here everyone's position. Why all those people get thrown under the bus is beyond me.
I get the frustration, but it is also frustrating when one or two posters somehow prompt the "this is why I need to leave the board" posts.
There were quite a few who had respectful questions and wanted a decent dialogue and seemed open to wanting to here everyone's position. Why all those people get thrown under the bus is beyond me.
You better be posting from bed with ice-cream dripping on your keyboard.
I get the frustration, but it is also frustrating when one or two posters somehow prompt the "this is why I need to leave the board" posts.
There were quite a few who had respectful questions and wanted a decent dialogue and seemed open to wanting to here everyone's position. Why all those people get thrown under the bus is beyond me.
I get you, cookie, I really do. It's just tiring and frustrating. It's why I'm constantly reverting to sarcasm/gifs/etc. Because even when there is good dialogue, the negative stands out.
Caden I looked at the link you provided again and all I'm seeing is the median income of the US as a whole but broken down by race. For 2009, I'm seeing salaries that range from 14k -87k. The numbers are all over the place.
I feel that I've tried to provide proof that a large number of people in the US live on income that is just over minimum wage. So have others. But if we can't even agree on what average incomes are, then yeah, I guess this is going nowhere.
Anecdotes are real. Of course they are. And of course they help shape one's immediate view of any specific topic.
But please stop playing victim here. You freakin' teach. Do you want to teach your students to be critical thinkers, or to just roll solely with their own personal life experience? Why not teach them to balance the two? Will that not make them more adaptive and functioning adults, more equipped to formulate solid opinions and to debate them?
No one is negating your real life experiences, or even those you know about from people you're affiliated with. But for you to infer your single snapshot of demographics in your own little circle is automatically reflective of the entire nation is frankly absurd. It just is. It's something I have to bear in mind all the time on here - the in-home unlicensed daycare thread is a great example. My narrow experience with one was great anecdotally, but stats and even the experiences of other posters on here speak greatly to the contrary.
I really do hope you stick around, even if this thread is reinforcing your views that all conservatives really must hate poor people (which is, again, absurd). I learn stuff from this board just about every day, not the least of which is how to discuss and debate effectively without getting overly emotional or invested in what is, at root, a conversation with a bunch of people on the internet. I just happen to think this board as a whole is more informed than the average citizen out there. And yes, citing sources is absolutely key to that end.
Caden I looked at the link you provided again and all I'm seeing is the median income of the US as a whole but broken down by race. For 2009, I'm seeing salaries that range from 14k -87k. The numbers are all over the place.
I feel that I've tried to provide proof that a large number of people in the US live on income that is just over minimum wage. So have others. But if we can't even agree on what average incomes are, then yeah, I guess this is going nowhere.
I don't need to put words in your mouth. You come through loud and clear.
Eclaires - that's why I left a few pages ago. I got the information I wanted from Y4M, and began to think how this could work better. At first I thought the ACA might alleviate some of this, because from a living wage perspective you need to account for healthcare. I've had low wage jobs where health insurance wasn't present because it was small company. But, there is no real answer to the questions posed in this thread.
I disagree that free markets make all this work beautifully, because we don't have a free market by textbook definition anymore. Once you regulate business, the textbook theory is null.
Next, I dislike the complete disregard for unions. Unions were a way to ensure proper treatment by employers. Like Reeve and Momi have pointed out, if businesses were always doing the right thing, it wouldn't be necessary to have workplace regulations (OSHA) or the need for people to create collective bargaining units. Are there reasons to dislike unions? Yes. But it seems to me that the better answer than just demonizing them is to limit what they are able to negotiate. However, the national push is to break up collective bargaining. I don't know if the end result is to get businesses to return stateside or not.
Lastly, we can speculate what the end result of a repeal of the minimum wage would be based on economic theory. I have no problem with creating hypothesis during a discussion. We should at least be able to do that on the board. But, what we didn't do is decide how this might look if we include the standard "good" regulations of business (again OSHA).
Anecdotes are real. Of course they are. And of course they help shape one's immediate view of any specific topic.
But please stop playing victim here. You freakin' teach. Do you want to teach your students to be critical thinkers, or to just roll solely with their own personal life experience? Why not teach them to balance the two? Will that not make them more adaptive and functioning adults, more equipped to formulate solid opinions and to debate them?
No one is negating your real life experiences, or even those you know about from people you're affiliated with. But for you to infer your single snapshot of demographics in your own little circle is automatically reflective of the entire nation is frankly absurd. It just is. It's something I have to bear in mind all the time on here - the in-home unlicensed daycare thread is a great example. My narrow experience with one was great anecdotally, but stats and even the experiences of other posters on here speak greatly to the contrary.
I really do hope you stick around, even if this thread is reinforcing your views that all conservatives really must hate poor people (which is, again, absurd). I learn stuff from this board just about every day, not the least of which is how to discuss and debate effectively without getting overly emotional or invested in what is, at root, a conversation with a bunch of people on the internet. I just happen to think this board as a whole is more informed than the average citizen out there. And yes, citing sources is absolutely key to that end.
Is this to me? I'm not a teacher. You must be thinking of someone else.
Let me point out that I didn't have anything to do with the shitstirring/name calling in this thread.
Mostly because the technical aspects of this thread went over my head.
I think any time there is going to be a discourse there is going to be a heated exchange. Mostly because you just want to shake the other person and say, "Why won't you agree with me!"
I like y4ms and cadens approach to just keep piling on the facts. I'm really not a fan of the martyr robe, even though I do like to wear it some times.
Let me point out that I didn't have anything to do with the shitstirring/name calling in this thread.
Mostly because the technical aspects of this thread went over my head.
I think any time there is going to be a discourse there is going to be a heated exchange. Mostly because you just want to shake the other person and say, "Why won't you agree with me!"
I like y4ms and cadens approach to just keep piling on the facts. I'm really not a fan of the martyr robe, even though I do like to wear it some times.
As long as it has big pockets for zombie-mitigation weapons.
Let me point out that I didn't have anything to do with the shitstirring/name calling in this thread.
Mostly because the technical aspects of this thread went over my head.
I think any time there is going to be a discourse there is going to be a heated exchange. Mostly because you just want to shake the other person and say, "Why won't you agree with me!"
I like y4ms and cadens approach to just keep piling on the facts. I'm really not a fan of the martyr robe, even though I do like to wear it some times.
As long as it has big pockets for zombie-mitigation weapons.
Let me point out that I didn't have anything to do with the shitstirring/name calling in this thread.
Mostly because the technical aspects of this thread went over my head.
I think any time there is going to be a discourse there is going to be a heated exchange. Mostly because you just want to shake the other person and say, "Why won't you agree with me!"
I like y4ms and cadens approach to just keep piling on the facts. I'm really not a fan of the martyr robe, even though I do like to wear it some times.
As long as it has big pockets for zombie-mitigation weapons.
Y'all feel free to ransack my house for supplies when the zombies come. I'll already be one, as I will give up immediately. You know, if I don't get taken in the rapture.
But for you to infer your single snapshot of demographics in your own little circle is automatically reflective of the entire nation is frankly absurd. It just is. It's something I have to bear in mind all the time on here - the in-home unlicensed daycare thread is a great example. My narrow experience with one was great anecdotally, but stats and even the experiences of other posters on here speak greatly to the contrary.
I really do hope you stick around, even if this thread is reinforcing your views that all conservatives really must hate poor people (which is, again, absurd).
1) I felt I provided stats to back up what I said and that it wasn't just my little circle...but I guess not.
2) I'm not new here. I've been on the politics board since the Nest in 04.
3) I'm not liberal. I used to be registered Republican until 8 years ago when I registered Independent. I don't hate conservatives.
I don't think conservatives hate poor people. I think saying things like taking away minimum wage is no big deal because only a small percentage will get poorer certainly comes across as one that is indifferent to poor. But that's fine. I'll take my negativity and mosey along since apparently I'm too emotional about this topic to debate it.
Is this to me? I'm not a teacher. You must be thinking of someone else.
Sorry, I think I grabbed from elsewhere you were a teacher - or my brain is just fried. (Speaking of erroneous sourcing!) But the rest still applies. Anecdotes fine, but balance with sources, and so forth.
Next, I dislike the complete disregard for unions. Unions were a way to ensure proper treatment by employers. Like Reeve and Momi have pointed out, if businesses were always doing the right thing, it wouldn't be necessary to have workplace regulations (OSHA) or the need for people to create collective bargaining units. Are there reasons to dislike unions? Yes. But it seems to me that the better answer than just demonizing them is to limit what they are able to negotiate.
I am embarrassed to admit limiting what they can negotiate has never occurred to me. Additionally, I do agree with Mommantrix when she says its very difficult for a wronged employee to go up against their employer even with the laws we have in place today. Like I said before this issue is just a big ol mess, however that doesn’t absolve the powers that be from their duties.
Eclaires - that's why I left a few pages ago. I got the information I wanted from Y4M, and began to think how this could work better. At first I thought the ACA might alleviate some of this, because from a living wage perspective you need to account for healthcare. I've had low wage jobs where health insurance wasn't present because it was small company. But, there is no real answer to the questions posed in this thread.
I disagree that free markets make all this work beautifully, because we don't have a free market by textbook definition anymore. Once you regulate business, the textbook theory is null.
Next, I dislike the complete disregard for unions. Unions were a way to ensure proper treatment by employers. Like Reeve and Momi have pointed out, if businesses were always doing the right thing, it wouldn't be necessary to have workplace regulations (OSHA) or the need for people to create collective bargaining units. Are there reasons to dislike unions? Yes. But it seems to me that the better answer than just demonizing them is to limit what they are able to negotiate. However, the national push is to break up collective bargaining. I don't know if the end result is to get businesses to return stateside or not.
Lastly, we can speculate what the end result of a repeal of the minimum wage would be based on economic theory. I have no problem with creating hypothesis during a discussion. We should at least be able to do that on the board. But, what we didn't do is decide how this might look if we include the standard "good" regulations of business (again OSHA).
But carry on people.
I agree that for several pages it was going well, and I don't think any of us think we're going to change minds here. I think, for most of us, the goal would be to reach a better understanding of various positions.
I know I definitely appreciate when people who hold opposite viewpoints take the time to explain their position to me. I may not end up agreeing, but it also means I don't default to "x position is cray cray!!!!"
I think that, unfortunately, the way things tend to devolve around here by the end of a discussion reflects the general attitude in this country and goes back to a post ESF made a few weeks ago explaining why she thinks we're fucked.
IAMX - I mentioned that because it's what TN did with an act called Collaborative Conferencing. Unions still exist, but they can't negotiate specific items. They still get to be at the table, but you can't say over-do pay like the example you mentioned. I have to find all the stuff that was limited and post it.
My mind is overrun with alternative teacher certification research right now. LOL
I get the frustration, but it is also frustrating when one or two posters somehow prompt the "this is why I need to leave the board" posts.
There were quite a few who had respectful questions and wanted a decent dialogue and seemed open to wanting to here everyone's position. Why all those people get thrown under the bus is beyond me.
You better be posting from bed with ice-cream dripping on your keyboard.
Omg I wish. I am working up until the very end. I enjoy punishing myself like that!
I get the frustration, but it is also frustrating when one or two posters somehow prompt the "this is why I need to leave the board" posts.
There were quite a few who had respectful questions and wanted a decent dialogue and seemed open to wanting to here everyone's position. Why all those people get thrown under the bus is beyond me.
I get you, cookie, I really do. It's just tiring and frustrating. It's why I'm constantly reverting to sarcasm/gifs/etc. Because even when there is good dialogue, the negative stands out.
I definitely understand that the negative gets the focus. But I am horomonal and when the "majority of people on here" stuff came out I was offended and I didn'teven participate in the thread, lol. So really carry on and ignore the weird pregnant woman in the corner. : )
Found it IAMX: This applies to Professional Educator Unions
Are there certain terms and conditions that are prohibited from being discussed as part of collaborative conferencing?
Yes. The following items are prohibited: 1) Differentiated pay plans or other incentive compensation programs tied to performance that exceed expectations or that aid in hiring and retaining highly qualified teachers for hard-to-staff schools and subject areas;
2) Expenditure of grants or awards from federal, state or local governments; foundations; or other private organizations that are expressly designated for specific purposes;
3) Evaluation of professional employees;
4) Staffing decisions and policies relative to innovative educational programs under T.C.A. 49-1-207; innovative high school programs under Title 49, Chapter 15; virtual education programs; and other innovative schools or school districts that may be enacted by the General Assembly;
5) All personnel decisions concerning assignment of professional employees, including, but not limited to, filling of vacancies, assignments to specific schools, positions, professional duties, transfers, layoffs, reductions in force and recall. In addition, no agreement may include provisions that require personnel decisions to be determined on the basis of tenure, seniority or length of service; and
No one will answer it. History has proved time and time again that businesses will take advantage of workers if there is nothing to stop them. Not just history - current wages in China, sweatshops etc - pretty much everywhere in the world where there is not protection for workers, workers get abused.
If minimum wage was removed here, that wouldn't happen because...MAGIC!
Umm Reeve, when the Brits controlled Hong Kong, there was extremely low unemployment. Like below 2% in the early 90s, almost unthinkable for people here. When China, which actually does have minimum wages, took over it imposed several costly labor benefit laws on employers in Hong Kong and predictably their unemployment rose significantly. It was at 8.3% in 2003. Today it's average is still higher than it used to be.
I get the frustration, but it is also frustrating when one or two posters somehow prompt the "this is why I need to leave the board" posts.
There were quite a few who had respectful questions and wanted a decent dialogue and seemed open to wanting to here everyone's position. Why all those people get thrown under the bus is beyond me.
There was also at least one other who was over the line disrespectful, and I have to say I was more than a little surprised that none of the people who supposedly wanted a decent dialogue called her out on it. We've become much more permissive of that kind of thing of late, and it certainly makes me less likely to participate.
As I said, discussing what could happen if minimum wage was eliminated is one thing. The absolute denial that a large percentage of people in the US are making $10 an hour is another.
Here's another ... but I guess Virginia is the odd duck here right?
Average weekly wages in Virginia’s smaller counties All but 7 of the 122 counties in Virginia with employment below 75,000 had average weekly wages lower than the national average of $935. Highland County reported the lowest wage level at $458. The highest wage among Virginia’s 122 small counties was Goochland County’s $1,674, followed by Surry County’s $1,544. (See table 2.)
When all 134 counties in Virginia were considered, 121 had wages below the national average of $935. Seven reported average weekly wages below $500, 78 reported wages from $501 to $700, 34 had wages from $701 to $900, 8 had wages from $901 to $1,100, and 7 had wages above $1,101. Of the 13 counties with above-average wages, 7 were concentrated in the metropolitan area of Washington, D.C. and 4 were located in the Richmond area.
AGAIN, you're using a weekly $ amount and surmising that equals a 40 hour work week for everyone. You also apparently think this is all made up of single income heads of households. Although I do have to point out from your post that in all but 7 VA counties people are making above $12.5/hr, using your ASSumption math skills. I don't know why I bother repeating myself over and over. No one is denying there are people who make $10/hr, we're using published empirical data to show you how many there are and what other characteristics they demonstrate and all you're doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and linking random sites you apparently don't understand.