Caden I looked at the link you provided again and all I'm seeing is the median income of the US as a whole but broken down by race. For 2009, I'm seeing salaries that range from 14k -87k. The numbers are all over the place.
I feel that I've tried to provide proof that a large number of people in the US live on income that is just over minimum wage. So have others. But if we can't even agree on what average incomes are, then yeah, I guess this is going nowhere.
It's this chart: Average Earnings of Year-Round Full-Time Workers by Educational Attainment: 2009. The 3rd chart, #703
You really haven't provided proof. You completely dismissed my & y4m's data in order to rely on your anecdotes. Then you posted links to data that contain earnings of people who hardly work at all, thus skewing the average downward significantly.
I definitely understand that the negative gets the focus. But I am horomonal and when the "majority of people on here" stuff came out I was offended and I didn'teven participate in the thread, lol. So really carry on and ignore the weird pregnant woman in the corner. : )
I came to this party very late, but IMO it was only a handful of people who couldn't handle this thread well. But those few are the ones who posted often so they drowned out everyone else who was reasonable. It's a shame b/c if we all had the time we might have had a really good in-depth debate. O well.
I am sad that no one wants to talk about how states with higher minimum wages also have higher unemployment. I had to make a whole spreadsheet for that one.
I am sad that no one wants to talk about how states with higher minimum wages also have higher unemployment. I had to make a whole spreadsheet for that one.
But statistics schmatistics I guess.
Pick me! Pick me! Publius needs to bust in here with info on Singapore and Switzerland and how everyone there is being shat on in the streets by their abusive employers.
There was also at least one other who was over the line disrespectful, and I have to say I was more than a little surprised that none of the people who supposedly wanted a decent dialogue called her out on it. We've become much more permissive of that kind of thing of late, and it certainly makes me less likely to participate.
I don't call anyone out because I just try to ignore those posts and move on to the actual information.
I appreciate you and caden keeping the dialog going for as long as you did. I think that I got a better perspective of the other side of the argument. And I have another book to look into to hopefully see how not having minimum wage has worked in other countries. So at least for me, and I know there are few others, I learned some things in this post. Despite the nonsense.
I totally get that. I usually do the same thing. I appreciate you asking questions and being open-minded on the topic. If everyone was like sydney I wouldn't have lasted more than 1 page.
I don't call anyone out because I just try to ignore those posts and move on to the actual information.
I appreciate you and caden keeping the dialog going for as long as you did. I think that I got a better perspective of the other side of the argument. And I have another book to look into to hopefully see how not having minimum wage has worked in other countries. So at least for me, and I know there are few others, I learned some things in this post. Despite the nonsense.
I totally get that. I usually do the same thing. I appreciate you asking questions and being open-minded on the topic. If everyone was like sydney I wouldn't have lasted more than 1 page.
I am sad that no one wants to talk about how states with higher minimum wages also have higher unemployment. I had to make a whole spreadsheet for that one.
But statistics schmatistics I guess.
I would actually like to see the back up that the correlation = causation on that one. Without the actual data, I am hard pressed to believe that none of the Federal min. wage standard states have unemployment higher than the 8-something% listed for the above Fed. minimum wage states. Which leads me to believe that there are outliers pulling that stats in either direction.
Post by EllieArroway on Aug 10, 2012 13:14:57 GMT -5
I am sad that this thread fell apart because I felt like there was (after the first couple of pages) a good discussion going on & it was definitely making me think about things. I like to see the 'other' side (even though I'm not even sure which side I'm on here) and I would love to see more data/info/theory about what would happen if we removed minimum wage laws - not just to those currently making minimum wage but to salaries across the board, the price of goods/services, impact on government resources, etc. Are there any studies that look at what would (theoretically) happen?
Maybe create a new s/o thread called Minimum Wage - the Sourced Version? ;D
I seriously want to take tonight to read through it all and piece it apart, with links and studies and so forth. Without the "fuck you for thinking this way" and similar expressions.
I am sad that no one wants to talk about how states with higher minimum wages also have higher unemployment. I had to make a whole spreadsheet for that one.
But statistics schmatistics I guess.
I would actually like to see the back up that the correlation = causation on that one. Without the actual data, I am hard pressed to believe that none of the Federal min. wage standard states have unemployment higher than the 8-something% listed for the above Fed. minimum wage states. Which leads me to believe that there are outliers pulling that stats in either direction.
I don't even know if it's outliers, but I'm also wary about correlation=causation in this instance. States with higher min. wage tend to have higher COL. Higher COL often means more urban areas or high-paying industries, like technology and finance, which have been disproportionately affected by the crash in the economy. There are a lot of people in Manhattan (which has a higher min wage than NYS as a whole) who weren't working min wage jobs who were laid off in the past few years, too. (<-- too anecdotal? Do I need to source?)
I am sad that this thread fell apart because I felt like there was (after the first couple of pages) a good discussion going on & it was definitely making me think about things. I like to see the 'other' side (even though I'm not even sure which side I'm on here) and I would love to see more data/info/theory about what would happen if we removed minimum wage laws - not just to those currently making minimum wage but to salaries across the board, the price of goods/services, impact on government resources, etc. Are there any studies that look at what would (theoretically) happen?
I agree with this. I also really appreciated Caden's explanation that having a work history and beginning work early in life, even at $4 an hour, is tied to higher earnings and more job growth later in life (understandably). I don't know that it justifies companies paying lower wages to start with, and I am still concerned about people who live paycheck to paycheck on less than $10/hour, but it put things in perspective. I might not agree with eliminating minimum wage, but that was a light bulb moment for me. I understand part of her position, even if I'm not on board.
I am sad that no one wants to talk about how states with higher minimum wages also have higher unemployment. I had to make a whole spreadsheet for that one.
But statistics schmatistics I guess.
I would actually like to see the back up that the correlation = causation on that one. Without the actual data, I am hard pressed to believe that none of the Federal min. wage standard states have unemployment higher than the 8-something% listed for the above Fed. minimum wage states. Which leads me to believe that there are outliers pulling that stats in either direction.
By all means--here's a spreadsheet. I'd love to hear your thoughts. But Correlation isn't Causation isn't a full thought in itself, unless you have some reason to suggest the correlation (which is about .30 in this case) wouldn't be causal (like merymac is suggesting with COL--I'll look at that if I get a second).
Maybe create a new s/o thread called Minimum Wage - the Sourced Version? ;D
I seriously want to take tonight to read through it all and piece it apart, with links and studies and so forth. Without the "fuck you for thinking this way" and similar expressions.
Please, some of us don't need facts. If we say its true then it must be cuz we are the "experts."
I would actually like to see the back up that the correlation = causation on that one. Without the actual data, I am hard pressed to believe that none of the Federal min. wage standard states have unemployment higher than the 8-something% listed for the above Fed. minimum wage states. Which leads me to believe that there are outliers pulling that stats in either direction.
I don't even know if it's outliers, but I'm also wary about correlation=causation in this instance. States with higher min. wage tend to have higher COL. Higher COL often means more urban areas or high-paying industries, like technology and finance, which have been disproportionately affected by the crash in the economy. There are a lot of people in Manhattan (which has a higher min wage than NYS as a whole) who weren't working min wage jobs who were laid off in the past few years, too. (<-- too anecdotal? Do I need to source?)
We should always be wary of assuming correlation = causation. It's not the case 100% of the time that an X% increase in the minimum wage results in a Y% increase in unemployment. Economic changes like this are almost always multi-factorial and complex. But the pattern happens often enough, internationally as well as in this country, recently and many decades ago, even apparently at the smaller state level, that we can say labor is not immune from basic economic principles. People keep studying this phenomenon and keep coming up with similar results. So that's why it's basically a consensus principle now.
I would actually like to see the back up that the correlation = causation on that one. Without the actual data, I am hard pressed to believe that none of the Federal min. wage standard states have unemployment higher than the 8-something% listed for the above Fed. minimum wage states. Which leads me to believe that there are outliers pulling that stats in either direction.
By all means--here's a spreadsheet. I'd love to hear your thoughts. But Correlation isn't Causation isn't a full thought in itself, unless you have some reason to suggest the correlation (which is about .30 in this case) wouldn't be causal (like merymac is suggesting with COL--I'll look at that if I get a second).
Her reasoning is part of my concern. There are states with low unemployment right now due to special economic circumstances (ND comes to mind) the same way that there are places with high unemployment due to very specific sectors of the economy crashing.
So, using my example of ND, looking at the chart you posted, ND has an UE rate of 2.9% but is at federal minimum wage. It is misleading to think that their adoption of the federal minimum wage is what is keeping their UE level low. THeir unique position with an expanding oil and gas sector is the cause. These situations are not unique, on both sides. That is what I am concerned with.
I do too. I am now wondering what is going on in VT that UE is so low. Am I out of the loop on something? They pay a higher than federal minimum wage! :-(
Just for fun - Y4M's spreadsheet with a COL factor added. The source of the COL data might be questionable. I didn't really look at their methodology - it was just the first source I had with a simple numerical factor for all 50 states.
Just for fun - Y4M's spreadsheet with a COL factor added. The source of the COL data might be questionable. I didn't really look at their methodology - it was just the first source I had with a simple numerical factor for all 50 states.
By all means--here's a spreadsheet. I'd love to hear your thoughts. But Correlation isn't Causation isn't a full thought in itself, unless you have some reason to suggest the correlation (which is about .30 in this case) wouldn't be causal (like merymac is suggesting with COL--I'll look at that if I get a second).
Her reasoning is part of my concern. There are states with low unemployment right now due to special economic circumstances (ND comes to mind) the same way that there are places with high unemployment due to very specific sectors of the economy crashing.
So, using my example of ND, looking at the chart you posted, ND has an UE rate of 2.9% but is at federal minimum wage. It is misleading to think that their adoption of the federal minimum wage is what is keeping their UE level low. THeir unique position with an expanding oil and gas sector is the cause. These situations are not unique, on both sides. That is what I am concerned with.
ND has had a below-average UE rate for many years though. Low UE is not unique to them, even if it is currently even more below the average due to special circumstances. And it's not like ND is an outlier. There's a pretty strong trend or correlation in y4m's link.
Her reasoning is part of my concern. There are states with low unemployment right now due to special economic circumstances (ND comes to mind) the same way that there are places with high unemployment due to very specific sectors of the economy crashing.
So, using my example of ND, looking at the chart you posted, ND has an UE rate of 2.9% but is at federal minimum wage. It is misleading to think that their adoption of the federal minimum wage is what is keeping their UE level low. THeir unique position with an expanding oil and gas sector is the cause. These situations are not unique, on both sides. That is what I am concerned with.
ND has had a below-average UE rate for many years though. Low UE is not unique to them, even if it is currently even more below the average due to special circumstances. And it's not like ND is an outlier. There's a pretty strong trend or correlation in y4m's link.
I would actually like to see the back up that the correlation = causation on that one. Without the actual data, I am hard pressed to believe that none of the Federal min. wage standard states have unemployment higher than the 8-something% listed for the above Fed. minimum wage states. Which leads me to believe that there are outliers pulling that stats in either direction.
By all means--here's a spreadsheet. I'd love to hear your thoughts. But Correlation isn't Causation isn't a full thought in itself, unless you have some reason to suggest the correlation (which is about .30 in this case) wouldn't be causal (like merymac is suggesting with COL--I'll look at that if I get a second).
I think it's interesting, but I am not convinced that you can compare the economies of North Dakota and the District of Columbia and conclude that the UE rate is what it is because of minimum wage. Though arguably those two economies are sort of outliers because of the new oil boom, and entirely urban population that largely sucks on the feds teat.
The states with some of the highest UE rates - CA and NV - had huge construction/real estate booms that crashed. And CA also has about 938 other economic problems that are particularly unique to it. I don't know what the fuck is up with Rhode Island though. But the states with the next three highest UE rates (New Jersey, and the Carolinas) have $7.25 minimu wages. Then you've got DC. after that, it's three more states with $7.25 minimum wages.
So in the states with the 10 highest UE rates, you've got 6 with the lowest minimum wage, one with an entirely urban population, and two who took huge hits from the real estate boom (one of which is already FUBAR anyway).
I admit to have forgotten everything about college statistics, so I have no idea what a correlation of .3 means, but this is my lay person data analysis.
I feel like there is never going to be enough information to fully support positions on this, though.
I disagree. There are simply way too many examples to dismiss Min Wage increasing unemployment. At some point it just becomes finding excuses to explain away the obvious.
Post by mominatrix on Aug 10, 2012 14:05:46 GMT -5
Here's a study that was done when states were raising their minimum wages all over the place, because the federal minimum wage remained stagnant so long.
What the study did is compare neighboring counties across state lines (to sort of control for the NYC vs. ND factor). ALL neighboring counties with differences in state minimum wage laws between 1990 and 2006 were considered.
I do too. I am now wondering what is going on in VT that UE is so low. Am I out of the loop on something? They pay a higher than federal minimum wage!
Montpelier is the only state capital in the country without a McDonalds. Maybe that has something to do with it. Actually probably not, but I wanted to share Vermont trivia that related to the minimum wage.
I am sad that this thread fell apart because I felt like there was (after the first couple of pages) a good discussion going on & it was definitely making me think about things. I like to see the 'other' side (even though I'm not even sure which side I'm on here) and I would love to see more data/info/theory about what would happen if we removed minimum wage laws - not just to those currently making minimum wage but to salaries across the board, the price of goods/services, impact on government resources, etc. Are there any studies that look at what would (theoretically) happen?
Threads usually devolve once the F word is introduced (and that was about page 3) and/or someone posts the ole "Why dont you answer my question!?!??!?!!?" as if it is either a) I must be right because no one has answered or b) see a.
I do too. I am now wondering what is going on in VT that UE is so low. Am I out of the loop on something? They pay a higher than federal minimum wage!
Montpelier is the only state capital in the country without a McDonalds. Maybe that has something to do with it. Actually probably not, but I wanted to share Vermont trivia that related to the minimum wage.
I drove over 45 minutes in Vermont without passing a place to get coffee.
I feel like there is never going to be enough information to fully support positions on this, though.
I disagree. There are simply way too many examples to dismiss Min Wage increasing unemployment. At some point it just becomes finding excuses to explain away the obvious.
I missed some large chunks of the thread, so forgive me if this was addressed previously. But are you saying that it is indisputable that having a minimum wage period leads to increased unemployment or an increased minimum wage leads to increased unemployment? Your statement seems to imply the former, in which case has there been a graphic or statistic tracking both since the inception of the fair labor standards back in the 30s? Maybe that's what we should be talking about then.