Too much praise causes narcissim

[Deleted]

I didn't read the article - just the title.
But parents can't win. Too much - bad. Too little - low self esteem.
It's like every food causes cancer. Just don't eat.

[simpsongal]

I heard about the study on NPR. It's the first of its kind, so hopefully there will be some refinement. I mean, the two questions they asked were pretty close. I think they're making a lot whether kids answered "yes" to both questions.

But it sounds like parents can counter narcissism a bit by reminding our special snowflakes that other people matter and have value. I get that's a bit generic, but ask my DH about some of the kids he coached on the swim team - you'd think the world were created for some of those monsters.

I remember my folks telling me the old adage - no matter how good you are, there's always someone out there better than you. I hated hearing that b/c I felt like it diminished me in some way, but it was also humbling. There are a lot of small things I want to teach my kids that took me a while to learn, like how to accept a compliment or how to pay a compliment to someone (particularly without expecting one in return).

[shamrockshake]

I read something on this years ago, I forget most of it now but the gist was don't praise your kids by telling them they're "the best", use other words, which I suppose makes sense

[ECB]

My kid is screwed too.

[Deleted]

My kid tells me I'm the best mommy ever, so I guess we're both causing narcissism.

[shamrockshake]

our younger DDs are especially fucked though, not only do they get it from DH and me, the older two fucking lay it on THICK when the younger two do anything. Potty training dd3 you would have thought invented the potty the way dd1 and 2 would react every time she peed lol

[Deleted]

As a former elementary teacher I can vouch for this, at least anecdotallt. However, there is a big difference between non-specific praise about who they ARE , ie "you are such an awesome special snowflake/pretty/etc!" Vs praising for something they did. (Ie, I'm so proud of how well you matched those socks! @this )

page has talked about this concept in the past and is better at articulating it.

[ilikedonuts]

Even without reading it, I think I get what they are saying. If someone tells my 3.5 that she's pretty she says 'I know' instead of thank you. We are working on it though every time and correct her. I fear that she is going to become 'that kid'

[Deleted]

FWIW, don't feel too bad about this. Of course you feel like everything your kid does is amazing just because they exist. work in HR and am constantly working with managers to coach them to praise correctly (don't just say 'good job'!) it's a learned skill.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 9:35:42 GMT -5 @republicrat said:

As a former elementary teacher I can vouch for this, at least anecdotallt. However, there is a big difference between non-specific praise about who they ARE , ie "you are such an awesome special snowflake/pretty/etc!" Vs praising for something they did. (Ie, I'm so proud of how well you matched those socks! @this )

page has talked about this concept in the past and is better at articulating it.

yeah, I try to follow a couple of rules of thumb about praise, with the caveat that this is something I am SO SO bad at--the words "great job!" or "you're so pretty!" definitely escape my mouth daily. It is REALLY HARD to stop saying this stuff. But I figure if I am mostly praising "correctly" I can't worry about the times I don't.

One thing is to not say praise that's a conversation stopper. So if you say "Great job!" or "That looks wonderful!" that's sort of a statement in and of itself and they don't respond. But if you say "Wow, you worked really hard to find two of the same socks and match them together! You looked for the colors and pattens and matched them!" the child can say "yeah, I did, and I also looked for socks of the same size" or whatever.

Another is to praise effort and not ability. So not "You are really good at that" but "You worked really hard to figure it out!"

Another one that feels so dumb to me as an adult, but that works really well, is to just give a play-by-play or a description of what they did. "You colored that whole paper in purple and then stuck a bunch of stickers on it!" It doesn't feel like praise but seriously, my DD1 loves it when I use this one and usually comes back to me with a "Yeah, and see, this is a picture of you and here's Daddy!" By far it is the technique that gets her to open up and talk about her effort the most.

The idea is that praising ability gives kids the idea that people value ability in and of itself. "Great job!" Or "You're so smart!" translates to "I like that you are naturally good at this thing!" and then kids become perfectionistic--they are motivated only to do things they know they will be good at and shy away from anything that is a challenge. Praising effort ("You have been practicing a lot at that, and you stuck with it and finished it!") gives the message that you can work to become better at things and that the work and persistence is what's really valued, which is a much healthier mindset and associated with more lifelong success.

Carol Dweck's work on this topic is really interesting. Her book Mindset is one of the most influential books I have read in the past 5 years. She has a website here with some good articles. www.mindsetonline.com/ Or just get her book.

But again--seriously--I screw this one up all the time. I think it takes a long time to break the "great job!" habit.

[jeaniebueller]

I have a feeling this article was written by some older person who thinks that everything that happened "back in MY day" was superior to how parents are now raising their children.

[shamrockshake]

Mar 13, 2015 10:07:42 GMT -5 minniemouse said:

My MIL is a preschool teacher. They are no longer allowed to give any praise at all. I think they swung too far the over way with it. She can't even say "wow you worked really hard" Or "good job listening today".

are you serious with this?? how is that even possible??

[redheadk]

Mar 13, 2015 10:08:10 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Why do we have to think so fucking much about everything we do with our kids?? Can't I just tell my kid to eat she's smart, or to eat her vegetables, or to quit playing in her diaper without having to think back to some book or parenting article I've read and then think ahead 20 years to try to figure out if I'm ruining her? The whole way we are supposed to "parent" these days really irritates me.

For real.

I always find these articles overly simplistic. Normal praising of your kid won't make them a narcissist. Always telling them that they are better than everyone else might, but I refuse to believe a "wow, you drew your dog really well, I love that you added spots to it!" is going to make my child a narcissist. Please.

[anna7602]

I guess you could do it like my parents did. My dad has always been a big praiser/go-for-your-dreams-you-can-do-it kind of parent and my mom has always been a debbie downer, squash-any-hopes-and-dreams kind of parent. 

That has made me a ridiculous combination of waffling between feeling superior to much of humanity in some regards and feeling overcome with anxiety and self-doubt at other times. It's an awesome way to live. My perfect outlet for these feelings is posting on internet message boards. 

[jsillyfun]

Also I will tell my daughter she is pretty every day so that when some snatch in middle school tells her she is ugly she won't believe it.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 10:08:10 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Why do we have to think so fucking much about everything we do with our kids?? Can't I just tell my kid to eat she's smart, or to eat her vegetables, or to quit playing in her diaper without having to think back to some book or parenting article I've read and then think ahead 20 years to try to figure out if I'm ruining her? The whole way we are supposed to "parent" these days really irritates me.

I don't know, it's just information. I feel like I read these things and I do my best to incorporate them if I think the article made sense, and if I do I do, and if I don't I don't. Some things are more important to me than others. I am working really hard on praise and mindset, but I feed my kids goldfish and non organic milk and they get screen time.

I agree there is a bit more of a false sense of obligation or pressure created by social media and the fact that people share all of this stuff, but I think as a parent you just have to decide what is best for your situation and your family and do what you can. There is no doubt that I don't parent the way some article or another is trying to tell me to, but that's why I'm the parent, I get to decide what's best for my family and my kids.

[kitty63]

I think this kind of goes along with the trying to build self esteem by giving everyone a trophy for participating that was the big thing for awhile. Showering kids with "you're the best" when clearly that can't always be the case seems to lead to these problems. I think sincere praise for accomplishments and effort isn't going to make an army of little monsters. At least I hope!?

[nessness]

I tell DD she's the prettiest baby in the world several times a day. I guess I'd better break the habit before she can understand me!

[rbp]

So when I praise M's burping, should I say "you really worked hard on that burp!" ?

[karinothing]

This is why I always make sure I beat DS when we race or play a game.

[Willis Jackson]

Mar 13, 2015 10:30:25 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:22:58 GMT -5 page said:

I don't know, it's just information. I feel like I read these things and I do my best to incorporate them if I think the article made sense, and if I do I do, and if I don't I don't. Some things are more important to me than others. I am working really hard on praise and mindset, but I feed my kids goldfish and non organic milk and they get screen time.

I agree there is a bit more of a false sense of obligation or pressure created by social media and the fact that people share all of this stuff, but I think as a parent you just have to decide what is best for your situation and your family and do what you can. There is no doubt that I don't parent the way some article or another is trying to tell me to, but that's why I'm the parent, I get to decide what's best for my family and my kids.

I try to only go looking for info if I have a question or need advice, but it is so hard to avoid these days. I don't necessarily implement everything everybody says, but it's all up there floating around in my head and stressing me out. I am an anxious person in general, though. I also feel like the vibe from everywhere is that if I'm not carefully considering every decision and everything that comes out of my mouth, I'm failing as a parent.

Do you think your parents did a pretty decent job raising you? If so, I would just do what comes "naturally" to you, because it's probably going to be very similar to what they did. If there are a few things you think they dropped the ball on, make an effort to do that stuff differently. There's no need to reinvent the parenting wheel.

I swear every time I read an article about what parents "should" be doing, I think, "Oh yeah, my parents were doing that 30-40 years ago." I was the fourth kid so maybe they screwed up a lot with my older brothers, but they really had parenting down by the time they got to me. If I'm not sure what to do in a given situation I just ask myself "WWM&DD?"

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 10:47:17 GMT -5 Willis Jackson said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:30:25 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

I try to only go looking for info if I have a question or need advice, but it is so hard to avoid these days. I don't necessarily implement everything everybody says, but it's all up there floating around in my head and stressing me out. I am an anxious person in general, though. I also feel like the vibe from everywhere is that if I'm not carefully considering every decision and everything that comes out of my mouth, I'm failing as a parent.

Do you think your parents did a pretty decent job raising you? If so, I would just do what comes "naturally" to you, because it's probably going to be very similar to what they did. If there are a few things you think they dropped the ball on, make an effort to do that stuff differently. There's no need to reinvent the parenting wheel.

I swear every time I read an article about what parents "should" be doing, I think, "Oh yeah, my parents were doing that 30-40 years ago." I was the fourth kid so maybe they screwed up a lot with my older brothers, but they really had parenting down by the time they got to me. If I'm not sure what to do in a given situation I just ask myself "WWM&DD?"

I'm so envious of this. My basic parenting strategy is to do the opposite of what my parents would have done, lol. It's one of the reasons I am so thoughtful about parenting--mine did so many things wrong with me and my brother and I am determined not to repeat their mistakes. But it also makes things really hard, because all of the stuff that comes automatically is the stuff they did with me, so I have to stop myself and think about how I want to act A LOT.

@tambcat I get that. I have had bad anxiety in the past. Fortunately it's mostly behind me at this point, but I know firsthand that it can be a struggle to fully internalize and realize that an article is just information and not an accusation of what you're doing wrong.

[jeaniebueller]

Mar 13, 2015 11:01:34 GMT -5 @246baje said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:32:58 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

And Joanna will say "I know" sometimes when people tell her she is pretty or funny or whatever. I tell her to say "thank you," and/or say it myself to model it for her, but I also think it's adorable. She's not even three yet. I'm not worried she's going to grow up to be a narcissistic asshole.

I used to do the "I know" thing around 3/4 when people praised my looks or smarts. And I turned out to be a functional adult.

My DS is 6 and still does this. "Good job reading that book, buddy!" "I Know." LOL

[turtlegirl]

Mar 13, 2015 10:35:28 GMT -5 @this said:

My parents told me I was so smart and so pretty and that they were the luckiest parents ever to have the two best daughters in the world.

But then they still tell me that. Last week my mom told me that I did a great job handling it when DD threw a tantrum at their house and she's very proud of me as a parent. "Great job being a mom, 30yo this!"

I AM like a borderline narcissist though, so. LOL

My mom was/is the same way. She always talked about how she was just the luckiest mom in the whole world to have the two best girls in the world. And now she talks about how my two boys are the best/cutest boys in the whole world. (Her only grandkids right now). I think because she was so over the top about it all the time I realized pretty early on that she's just expressing how lucky/happy she feels rather than how great me and my sister are, lol.

[asoctoberfalls]

I think so much of this is nature, just like everything else. My parents never praised me and were really hard on me. I ended up with a healthy self esteem but I'm in no way a narcissist. Last year, my mom told me she was proud of me. It was the first time I can ever remember her saying those words, and I'm a 35 year old college graduate who paid for college with a full ride scholarship, won numerous awards in school, and has always had a well-paying job.

DH's mom praised him all the time, and he has an extremely low self esteem.

So, I'm not going to think too hard about whether I'm praising my son too much.

[dancingirl21]

Well, J is screwed. I tell him on the daily how smart he is. I'm always saying, "Great job, J! You're so smart! Mommy loves you!" Rinse, repeat. But dammit - he IS smart. He was playing with his little learner laptop doing letters and it said "A. Apple". He then went over to his chalkboard that has letters on it, grabbed the A and said, "A!"...at 19 months. So there.

[catbus]

Mar 13, 2015 10:58:03 GMT -5 page said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:47:17 GMT -5 Willis Jackson said:

Do you think your parents did a pretty decent job raising you? If so, I would just do what comes "naturally" to you, because it's probably going to be very similar to what they did. If there are a few things you think they dropped the ball on, make an effort to do that stuff differently. There's no need to reinvent the parenting wheel.

I swear every time I read an article about what parents "should" be doing, I think, "Oh yeah, my parents were doing that 30-40 years ago." I was the fourth kid so maybe they screwed up a lot with my older brothers, but they really had parenting down by the time they got to me. If I'm not sure what to do in a given situation I just ask myself "WWM&DD?"

I'm so envious of this. My basic parenting strategy is to do the opposite of what my parents would have done, lol. It's one of the reasons I am so thoughtful about parenting--mine did so many things wrong with me and my brother and I am determined not to repeat their mistakes. But it also makes things really hard, because all of the stuff that comes automatically is the stuff they did with me, so I have to stop myself and think about how I want to act A LOT.

@tambcat I get that. I have had bad anxiety in the past. Fortunately it's mostly behind me at this point, but I know firsthand that it can be a struggle to fully internalize and realize that an article is just information and not an accusation of what you're doing wrong.

Ditto. I don't stress about my parenting, but yeah, I put thought into it, because I see where my parents were lacking. I needed more structure, more responsibilities, more accountability. I see all these opportunities my parents had to help me help myself, but instead they bailed me out or let me metaphorically drown. I love them dearly, but it's the truth.

[boxerdog]

It is so EXHAUSTING trying to remember to parent the way we are "supposed" to. I already stress enough about everything I am "supposed" to be doing.

I plan on ignoring the shit out of this article and praising him all day erry day.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 10:07:42 GMT -5 minniemouse said:

My MIL is a preschool teacher. They are no longer allowed to give any praise at all. I think they swung too far the over way with it. She can't even say "wow you worked really hard" Or "good job listening today".

I would not send my kid to that school. That's insane.

[game blouses]

My mom was abused and neglected in her childhood, as were all of her siblings, and they all have some form of clinical narcissism or borderline personality disorder.

As a result, she showered us with praise and never let a day go by without giving us compliments. We all still deal with low self-esteem and depression, regardless.

Narcissism comes from the fear that you don't matter at all, not the knowledge that you're amazing.

ETA: I based my Master's thesis on the idea that having a unquestioned identity (being "smart" or "pretty" or "funny") can cause harm because when that identity is tested later in life, when a "smart" kid gets in over her head in college or a "handsome" kid gets acne and gains a bunch of weight, they have no tools to encourage themselves beyond global labels. So, I will agree that giving those kinds of labels as compliments can be problematic, but not because it causes narcissism.