Turning FF

[ssmjlm]

See my flameful confession.

We turned E at 22m b/c she was throwing fits RFing.

[meltoine]

Probably not, TBH. It would probably work for a couple of days, but once the novelty of being FF wears off she'll be back to the same complaint.

[ilikedonuts]

I think kids will always find something to complain about.

[Deleted]

I know it's unpopular to say it, but DS was much happier once we turned him. He can see much more. He spent a good year playing "spot the taxi", which you just can't do RF.

[ryry]

This may be the unpopular answer, but I do think some kids are just happier FF and feel like they're more involved. Kids will always find something to complain about, though, so it's no guarantee.

I can't wait to turn DD2. She fights every single time I have to get her in the car. If DD1 isn't in her (FF) seat, she'll try to climb in there and do the straps. We'll turn her right after she turns 2 (before DS arrives) and I really think it's going to make geting in the car much more pleasant for all of us. It's such a frustrating production now.

[satsuma]

DS was about the same age when we turned him. I had mixed feelings about it, but I can't argue that he's not happier FF. He had the biggest smile on his face for a week after the switch. While the huge smile didn't last, he does love being able to see everything we see and pointing out all the different vehicles.

[Deleted]

I turned DD about that age too. She was just over it, whined, complained she couldn't see and on and on. She had never cried prior and hasn't cried since so I'd say it works for us.

[redheadk]

DD threw horrendous fits about getting in the rearfacing carseat. Getting in the car involved physically forcing a screaming, fighting child into the seat every single time. I finally gave up and turned her FF in the spring of last year, around 22 months. I couldn't sit in parking lots for 20+ minutes trying to get her to calm down, distract her, bribe her, and finally force her into the seat while being scared that I was going to break her arm or leg (it was that bad) anymore.

She hasn't thrown a fit about the carseat since. She'll occasionally complain if she wants out but it's just complaining, not crazy fits. It's seriously night and day.

DD is generally pretty mild and easygoing about things, it was really just this one thing that she was a total crazy pants about. I was less than thrilled since I bought a Clek Foonf intending to do ERF but it just didn't work out like that.

[karinothing]

Mar 16, 2015 10:44:28 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Mar 16, 2015 10:32:11 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

I know it's unpopular to say it, but DS was much happier once we turned him. He can see much more. He spent a good year playing "spot the taxi", which you just can't do RF.

DS is always yelling "police car" or "school bus" or "cement mixer" while RF'ing.  Maybe it's because he's so much higher up in the Foonf?

Yeah, DS sees fine while RFing too, but we also have a small sedan so he can see out the rear windows (and sides).

[Deleted]

Thanks for the input, people with magical children that don't complain. It's super helpful when my kid is freaking out.

[karinothing]

Mar 16, 2015 11:16:44 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

Thanks for the input, people with magical children that don't complain. It's super helpful when my kid is freaking out.

Ha, now I didn't say he didn't complain, I just tell him to shut it and turn up the radio lol

[catbus]

E was doing the same thing for the last several months, @peggyolson, but it didn't prompt me to turn him FF. What did was that I had to switch from a LATCH install to a seatbelt install for his seat, and I was never happy with the install. The recline of the seat would gradually increase, and each time I'd reinstall (every three weeks or so), I'd find that the internal belt lockoffs, which are a feature of the seat, had popped open again. I got a perfect install forward-facing. 

[catbus]

Mar 16, 2015 10:32:11 GMT -5 @tokenhoser said:

I know it's unpopular to say it, but DS was much happier once we turned him. He can see much more. He spent a good year playing "spot the taxi", which you just can't do RF.

This has been true for E. I think he was honestly bored of rear-facing, plus he kept getting his foot wedged in the Foonf's anti-rebound bar (which is required when rear-facing).

But I also agree that they'll always find something to complain about. In your case, @peggyolson, your DD is over two, so you've already done a great job. It's just a matter of how important extended rear-facing is to you.

[lishie]

Mar 16, 2015 8:11:12 GMT -5 @peggyolson said:

DD1's new thing is "I'm stuck! Out! Out!" in the car seat. Also, "No car seat! I want to drive! Drive!" 

I know RF is safer, but is there a chance that FF would eliminate these complaints? 

These fits were the exact reason we ended up flipping our kids before two.

The fits while I was driving were really distracting for me. I feared getting into an accident from not paying enough attention to the road because of the screaming.

Once we flipped each of our boys, they were so much happier. All fits stopped and life in the car was peaceful and relatively quiet again.

[Deleted]

Mar 16, 2015 11:48:45 GMT -5 @vicmo said:

I'm pretty sure 95% of the reason we haven't turned B is that he doesn't seem to care. I've been waiting for it to become a problem and I don't know how long my "rf is better" stance would last against a struggle.

My sister agonized over flipping nephew who was car sick every time he rfed and I was like dude.

A few weeks ago J got sick in the car. I realized that day that if this puking in the car became a regular thing I was going to have to seriously reconsider how long I intend to keep him rf. I can't clean up puke on the regular.

[catbus]

Mar 16, 2015 12:05:20 GMT -5 @fivedogs said:

Mar 16, 2015 11:38:10 GMT -5 catbus said:

E was doing the same thing for the last several months, @peggyolson, but it didn't prompt me to turn him FF. What did was that I had to switch from a LATCH install to a seatbelt install for his seat, and I was never happy with the install. The recline of the seat would gradually increase, and each time I'd reinstall (every three weeks or so), I'd find that the internal belt lockoffs, which are a feature of the seat, had popped open again. I got a perfect install forward-facing. 

I meant to ask you if they were popping open because you had the seatbelt retractor locked.  Because otherwise I would be severely pissed if that happened repeatedly and I would be complaining to the company.  Lockoffs shouldn't do that.   

I did have the retractor locked as well, but my understanding with the Foonf is that the internal lockoffs should be used in addition to locking the belt at the retractor...? I went over it with the CPST with whom I volunteer at an org, and she was also a bit stumped. 

Google has told me this is apparently an issue others have had with a RF seatbelt install in a late-model Subaru Outback. 

[gibbinator]

It made our drives a lot less whiney. Ds1 loves going for drives now.

[penguingrrl]

I turned my middle around at 21 months thinking it would help with complaining. It didn't help at all in her case. In fact, she couldn't figure out where to put her legs and went from "I'm stuck" to "I'm stuck and my legs hurt". We turned her back around within weeks. I'm sure there are kids who complain less FF, but I think for a lot of kids it's the harness they're most bothered by, not the direction they're facing. DS will likely be upset turning around because he's RF in the middle row and his sisters are in the 3rd row, so he can talk to them and see them and that will end when he turns around. He's far less satisfied when they aren't there.

[212]

Mar 16, 2015 12:17:57 GMT -5 @fivedogs said:

Mar 16, 2015 12:10:31 GMT -5 catbus said:

I did have the retractor locked as well, but my understanding with the Foonf is that the internal lockoffs should be used in addition to locking the belt at the retractor...? I went over it with the CPST with whom I volunteer at an org, and she was also a bit stumped. 

Google has told me this is apparently an issue others have had with a RF seatbelt install in a late-model Subaru Outback. 

No, it's an either/or.  If you lock the retractor, the lockoffs will pop open from the pressure of the shoulder belt (and likely the seat will be a little loose because you initially checked it with the lockoff).  This will happen with almost any seat with lockoffs.   

Also, you are only supposed to use one lockoff - not sure if you are doing that.  

It's on page 37-39 of this manual - clekinc.com/pdfs/foonf_2014_Owners_Manual_US_EN.pdf

However, I've only read about this - I've never done it in person.  Most CPSTs don't see Foonfs IRL (except maybe in Seattle, LOL).

HUH. The Car Seat Lady installed mine using both clips. She said one was fine, but so was two if it gave you a better install (which it did). I've been using it like this for almost two years, and I just helped someone from this board install the Fllo with both clips (which also gave a better install). Now I'm puzzled.

[MadamePresident]

My 2 year old had those same Complaints.

[smm5623]

When we turned DD forward facing it was life changing. I get it. I support you if you do it. It was not safe for me to be so distracted when driving because she is freaking the fuck out.

[Deleted]

As someone did point out, you can try it and if it does nothing, turn it back around. We turned DS initially because we were driving 4 separate 8 hour days (2 days of 8 hours there, and then back) for a vacation. If he'd still been miserable, we wouldn't have left him FF.

[catbus]

Mar 16, 2015 12:17:57 GMT -5 @fivedogs said:

Mar 16, 2015 12:10:31 GMT -5 catbus said:

I did have the retractor locked as well, but my understanding with the Foonf is that the internal lockoffs should be used in addition to locking the belt at the retractor...? I went over it with the CPST with whom I volunteer at an org, and she was also a bit stumped. 

Google has told me this is apparently an issue others have had with a RF seatbelt install in a late-model Subaru Outback. 

No, it's an either/or.  If you lock the retractor, the lockoffs will pop open from the pressure of the shoulder belt (and likely the seat will be a little loose because you initially checked it with the lockoff).  This will happen with almost any seat with lockoffs.   

Also, you are only supposed to use one lockoff - not sure if you are doing that.  

It's on page 37-39 of this manual - clekinc.com/pdfs/foonf_2014_Owners_Manual_US_EN.pdf

However, I've only read about this - I've never done it in person.  Most CPSTs don't see Foonfs IRL (except maybe in Seattle, LOL).  

Step 6

If installing with a lap/shoulder belt, open

one (1) Rear-Facing Belt Lock-off as shown

in Figure 30. You may use whichever Lock-off

provides the most secure installation.

NOTE: If your vehicle’s belt system is

equipped with an ELR/ALR Switchable

Locking Retractor (SLR), or if you are installing

with a lap blet, you may skip Step 6, and

install your car seat WITHOUT using a

Rear-Facing Belt Lock-off. Refer to the Child

Restraint section of your vehicle manual to

understand what type of belt system your

vehicle is equipped with.

OK, this is helpful. The CPST I work with actually has worked with Foonfs, as she recommended the seat to her son and his wife for their child, and then helped with installation. 

The problem we still couldn't fix was the angle--I would get a very secure install (but not over-tightened), but over time the seat would just keep tilting back. It was bizarre. Never had the issue with LATCH install. The FF install for the Foonf is rock-solid, though. At 2.5, I feel OK about FF overall, especially since I am just not pleased with those installation issues. 

[catbus]

Mar 16, 2015 13:54:50 GMT -5 212 said:

Mar 16, 2015 12:17:57 GMT -5 @fivedogs said:

No, it's an either/or.  If you lock the retractor, the lockoffs will pop open from the pressure of the shoulder belt (and likely the seat will be a little loose because you initially checked it with the lockoff).  This will happen with almost any seat with lockoffs.   

Also, you are only supposed to use one lockoff - not sure if you are doing that.  

It's on page 37-39 of this manual - clekinc.com/pdfs/foonf_2014_Owners_Manual_US_EN.pdf

However, I've only read about this - I've never done it in person.  Most CPSTs don't see Foonfs IRL (except maybe in Seattle, LOL).

HUH. The Car Seat Lady installed mine using both clips. She said one was fine, but so was two if it gave you a better install (which it did). I've been using it like this for almost two years, and I just helped someone from this board install the Fllo with both clips (which also gave a better install). Now I'm puzzled.

This is what I'd heard/read somewhere. That two clips was default, but some cars both clips won't stay closed. Both would definitely not stay closed in our Outback. I finally wrestled it enough so that one would stay closed, but apparently not really, since each time I had to reinstall the clip would be popped open. And on CSFTL, they said to use the lockoff clip closer to the retractor if you had tipping issues (to the side, which we did because of where the belt comes from). If I didn't use the clip but got the seat to <1" of movement at belt path, it tilted away from the door (installed outboard, passenger side). If I tried to fix the tilting, there was too much movement. I reallllly cursed the changed LATCH guidelines for this reason, but once E got to 27 pounds, I couldn't in good conscience not switch to a belt install. 

[212]

Mar 16, 2015 15:14:34 GMT -5 catbus said:

Mar 16, 2015 13:54:50 GMT -5 212 said:

HUH. The Car Seat Lady installed mine using both clips. She said one was fine, but so was two if it gave you a better install (which it did). I've been using it like this for almost two years, and I just helped someone from this board install the Fllo with both clips (which also gave a better install). Now I'm puzzled.

This is what I'd heard/read somewhere. That two clips was default, but some cars both clips won't stay closed. Both would definitely not stay closed in our Outback. I finally wrestled it enough so that one would stay closed, but apparently not really, since each time I had to reinstall the clip would be popped open. And on CSFTL, they said to use the lockoff clip closer to the retractor if you had tipping issues (to the side, which we did because of where the belt comes from). If I didn't use the clip but got the seat to <1" of movement at belt path, it tilted away from the door (installed outboard, passenger side). If I tried to fix the tilting, there was too much movement. I reallllly cursed the changed LATCH guidelines for this reason, but once E got to 27 pounds, I couldn't in good conscience not switch to a belt install. 

I've emailed her asking for clarification. I 1000% trust her install and I'm 1000% confident in my memory of what she told me and showed me in May 2013. I'll report back!

[catbus]

Mar 16, 2015 15:16:50 GMT -5 212 said:

Mar 16, 2015 15:14:34 GMT -5 catbus said:

This is what I'd heard/read somewhere. That two clips was default, but some cars both clips won't stay closed. Both would definitely not stay closed in our Outback. I finally wrestled it enough so that one would stay closed, but apparently not really, since each time I had to reinstall the clip would be popped open. And on CSFTL, they said to use the lockoff clip closer to the retractor if you had tipping issues (to the side, which we did because of where the belt comes from). If I didn't use the clip but got the seat to <1" of movement at belt path, it tilted away from the door (installed outboard, passenger side). If I tried to fix the tilting, there was too much movement. I reallllly cursed the changed LATCH guidelines for this reason, but once E got to 27 pounds, I couldn't in good conscience not switch to a belt install. 

I've emailed her asking for clarification. I 1000% trust her install and I'm 1000% confident in my memory of what she told me and showed me in May 2013. I'll report back!

Clek has definitely made some adjustments to their guidelines, some of which are retroactive, and it can be hard figuring out which information is correct. I definitely got caught in Google loops trying to figure out whether the lockoffs were necessary, as well as whether recline positions 3 and 2 were acceptable for RF, or just 3 (FTR, both are acceptable as long as line is level to ground). I really do love that seat, but since it's still so new--and since it's a Canadian company, so a lot of the info out there is specific to Canada--I've had a hard time knowing what's up-to-date and applicable. 

[212]

Mar 16, 2015 15:20:34 GMT -5 catbus said:

Mar 16, 2015 15:16:50 GMT -5 212 said:

I've emailed her asking for clarification. I 1000% trust her install and I'm 1000% confident in my memory of what she told me and showed me in May 2013. I'll report back!

Clek has definitely made some adjustments to their guidelines, some of which are retroactive, and it can be hard figuring out which information is correct. I definitely got caught in Google loops trying to figure out whether the lockoffs were necessary, as well as whether recline positions 3 and 2 were acceptable for RF, or just 3 (FTR, both are acceptable as long as line is level to ground). I really do love that seat, but since it's still so new--and since it's a Canadian company, so a lot of the info out there is specific to Canada--I've had a hard time knowing what's up-to-date and applicable. 

Agreed. I just spent an hour in that same google loop before just saying eff this and emailing Alisa. I just got a Fllo (and like I said, helped a fellow gbcn'er install hers a few weekends ago) and I'll feel like a total ass if I screwed the pooch on this one!

[212]

catbus from the Car Seat Lady

Clek did change their instructions to try and simplify things by saying to use 0 or 1 of the lock-offs (I've had long conversations with the owner of Clek about this as I personally prefer using 2... which he says is still fine but we agree to disagree on whether to recommend using 1 vs 2). I find that I can't get the seat tight with none, so always use at least 1.

[catbus]

Mar 16, 2015 16:59:32 GMT -5 212 said:

catbus from the Car Seat Lady

Clek did change their instructions to try and simplify things by saying to use 0 or 1 of the lock-offs (I've had long conversations with the owner of Clek about this as I personally prefer using 2... which he says is still fine but we agree to disagree on whether to recommend using 1 vs 2). I find that I can't get the seat tight with none, so always use at least 1.

So this kind of confirms my issues. Seat only feels truly secure RF when I have a lock-off closed, but then the lock-off pops open at some point anyway. Sigh. 

I really, really love the FF install of that seat. No doubt it's secure, and that thing is not going anywhere. I think redheadk said something similar about it when she flipped her DD's seat. 

[redheadk]

Mar 16, 2015 17:17:10 GMT -5 catbus said:

Mar 16, 2015 16:59:32 GMT -5 212 said:

catbus from the Car Seat Lady

Clek did change their instructions to try and simplify things by saying to use 0 or 1 of the lock-offs (I've had long conversations with the owner of Clek about this as I personally prefer using 2... which he says is still fine but we agree to disagree on whether to recommend using 1 vs 2). I find that I can't get the seat tight with none, so always use at least 1.

So this kind of confirms my issues. Seat only feels truly secure RF when I have a lock-off closed, but then the lock-off pops open at some point anyway. Sigh. 

I really, really love the FF install of that seat. No doubt it's secure, and that thing is not going anywhere. I think redheadk said something similar about it when she flipped her DD's seat. 

I love installing the Foonf FF. This is one area where I love that DD is small because we can still use LATCH with the Foonf and probably will until the end of this year, at least. I can install it rock-solid in no time. I put it in my loaner car today and it took me maybe 15 seconds to install it, including tether, and it doesn't move. There is no way to install it wrong if you know what to do. LOVE.IT. 

ETA: I was able to use both lockoffs when installing with the seatbelt (always installed with the seatbelt when RFing because I had her in the center). Could you maybe give just a smidge of slack for the lockoffs? I think that's what I did to use both because the lockoffs push the belt down so it needs a little length to do that. Not much, of course, but enough to be able to close them and keep them closed. The seat was installed correctly, not tilting, and very tight. I also had to do one before the other but I don't remember if it was the one closest to the buckle or furthest at this point. If I reversed it, I couldn't do it. But, knowing you, you have probably tried all of this because you are very thorough